Israel seizes solar panels donated to Palestinians by Dutch government - Polidicks

Like you said, Israel could have genocided them at any point in time. I have a feeling that's what's coming. There's literally no other answer, and baring the Palestinians electing a friendly government to Israel(which won't happen) that's what will have to happen for Israel to feel it's keeping itself safe.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52436654]Reacting by bombing with a warning after Hamas launches a rocket is good.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Trebgarta;52436657]What scenario is this? Israel already mostly bombs after warning as they strike missile depots, where they dont need to kill the terrorists themselves. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_conflict#Warnings_prior_to_attacks[/url] They need infantry to deal with the tunnel complex Hamas builds.[/QUOTE] Sorry, I messed up. This was supposed to be in response to the geel9 post above where he was positioning Israel as the bad guy. He's not really giving them any out, he's just convinced they are in the wrong it seems.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52436706]Like you said, Israel could have genocided them at any point in time. I have a feeling that's what's coming. There's literally no other answer, and baring the Palestinians electing a friendly government to Israel(which won't happen) that's what will have to happen for Israel to feel it's keeping itself safe.[/QUOTE] I doubt it'll go as far as genocide tbh

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52436665][I]All of Gaza is run by Hamas[/I] Israel doesn't bomb first, they only bomb after Hamas fires a rocket. They don't buy rockets either, Hamas makes rockets themselves. Your suggestion is the same exact thing as saying "why doesn't the US simply invade North Korea to take away their missiles?" It's not realistic and only people who are completely uninformed would suggest it. You're literally suggesting that Israel invade Gaza and engage in very risky close quarters combat that will lead to the deaths of Israeli soldiers every time a spy reports that there's a rocket cache hidden in Mahmoud's basement.[/QUOTE] Except your argument is irrelevant. North Korea isn't shooting rockets at the US, nor is the US indiscriminately bombing civilian centers. If Israel doesn't want any more rockets their way, they've got to stop indiscriminately killing Palestine's citizens.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52436926]Except your argument is irrelevant. North Korea isn't shooting rockets at the US, nor is the US indiscriminately bombing civilian centers. If Israel doesn't want any more rockets their way, they've got to stop indiscriminately killing Palestine's citizens.[/QUOTE] You don't seem to understand so I'll break it down to simple steps. A. Hamas is doing nothing, Israel is doing nothing. Hamas is dedicated to waging Jihad against Israel/the Jewish Elders of Zion. Quoting their manifesto: [QUOTE] The day that enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised. To do this requires the diffusion of Islamic consciousness among the masses, both on the regional, Arab and Islamic levels. It is necessary to instill the spirit of Jihad in the heart of the nation so that they would confront the enemies and join the ranks of the fighters. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE]"I swear by the holder of Mohammed's soul that I would like to invade and be killed for the sake of Allah, then invade and be killed, and then invade again and be killed." (As related by al-Bukhari and Moslem). [/QUOTE] [QUOTE]Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).[/QUOTE] Shooting rockets at Israeli civilians is an act of worship for Hamas. B. Hamas shoots a rocket at Israel, making them the aggressor. The rocket gets intercepted by Iron Dome. C. Israel already has intelligence from spies implanted in Hamas about where rocket caches are and where the rocket was launched from. They drop leaflets and make phone calls to Palestinians who will be effected by the upcoming bombing. D. Having given affected Palestinians a few hours to evacuate, Israel then drops a roof knocking bomb. At this point, if too many civilians are around the area that will be bombed, the mission will be called off. E. Israel then bombs the rocket cache. Any civilians around were warned hours beforehand and it's their fault if they stuck around. Where's the indiscriminate killing? Israel's warned the civilians three times in a few hours to get out.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52437029]You don't seem to understand so I'll break it down to simple steps. A. Hamas is doing nothing, Israel is doing nothing. Hamas is dedicated to waging Jihad against Israel/the Jewish Elders of Zion. Quoting their manifesto: Shooting rockets at Israeli civilians is an act of worship for Hamas. B. Hamas shoots a rocket at Israel, making them the aggressor. The rocket gets intercepted by Iron Dome. C. Israel already has intelligence from spies implanted in Hamas about where rocket caches are and where the rocket was launched from. They drop leaflets and make phone calls to Palestinians who will be effected by the upcoming bombing. D. Having given affected Palestinians a few hours to evacuate, Israel then drops a roof knocking bomb. At this point, if too many civilians are around the area that will be bombed, the mission will be called off. E. Israel then bombs the rocket cache. Any civilians around were warned hours beforehand and it's their fault if they stuck around. Where's the indiscriminate killing? Israel's warned the civilians three times in a few hours to get out.[/QUOTE] That's really optimistic of you. Really explains the 9-1 kill ratio.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52437034]That's really optimistic of you. Really explains the 9-1 kill ratio.[/QUOTE] Source the 9:1 kill ratio? If you're talking about that chart, it doesn't differentiate terrorists from civilians. Terrorists are legitimate targets. Wikipedia says: [QUOTE]Journalist Yaakov Katz states in The Jerusalem Post that the ratio is 1:3 according to the Israeli figures and 60% civilians (3:2) according to B'Tselem's figures. Katz attributes the IDF's low ratio in the Gaza War and in the year preceding it to Israel's investment in special weapons systems, including small smart bombs that minimize collateral damage, and to an upscaled Israeli effort to warn civilians to flee areas and to divert missiles at the last moment if civilians entered a planned strike zone. Katz says that over 81 percent of the 5,000 missiles the IDF dropped in the Gaza Strip during the operation were smart bombs, a percentage which he states is unprecedented in modern warfare.[26] Journalist and commentator Evelyn Gordon writes in Commentary that the civilian casualty ratio in the 2008–09 Gaza War was 39 percent (2:3), using however only the preliminary Israeli estimates, but that 56 or 74 percent were civilians according to B'Tselem's figures, depending on whether 248 Hamas policemen are considered combatants or civilians; and 65 or 83 percent according to the figures of the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights. Gordon says that all of these ratios, even if the worse were correct, are lower than the normal civilian-to-combatant wartime fatality ratio in wars elsewhere, as given by the Red Cross, and states that the comparison shows that the IDF was unusually successful at minimizing civilian casualties. She concludes by charging that terrorists fight from among civilians because they know that the inevitable civilian casualties will result in opprobrium for their victims who dare to fight back, and that this norm will not change as long as this modus operandi remains profitable.[48][/QUOTE] Honestly, at this point, you're just being willfully ignorant. I've sourced a lot of these things, I've presented arguments to you and you're just plugging your ears and saying oh that's not true.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52436629]Do what every other country does. React to it without bombing civilian centers. Get a squad of soldiers, confiscate the weaponry and capture the terrorists. If another country was bombing my town, causing millions of dollars in damage, you bet your ass I am going to buy rockets to fire at them. Israel isn't waging this war to win, they're playing it to kill as many people that aren't them. Or at least it looks that way to anyone else.[/QUOTE] Thats whats called an "invasion" and going to war costs A LOT more lives than single strikes do. Look at what happened in 2014 in Gaza. Furthermore its a lot easier to just say "just send infantry in" than it actually is to do it. Put yourself in the boots of a guy making that decision. Do you risk the lives of your own troops, or risk the small potential of civilian deaths? The Hamas has become extremely lethal since theyve been fighting and training in Syria. Israel doesnt want to face them in ground combat for that reason. [editline]6th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=geel9;52436077]You legitimately think the Israel/Palestine conflict is a war? It's not even close. Terrorists shoot at Israel from citizen centers, and then Israel bombs the citizen centers. That makes a whole lot of sense to me! Palestinian terrorists are [i]oh so evil[/i] for using innocent civilians as human shields -- [i]but Israel is the one that's killing them.[/i][/QUOTE] What do you think a war is? One side is trying to kill the other and the other is responding with lethal force. Even then, let me clarify my statement since we're being semantic I guess. No country has ever taken military action, in a war or a not-war, at any point in time and hasnt incurred civilian casualties of some kind. [editline]6th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=joost1120;52436926]Except your argument is irrelevant. North Korea isn't shooting rockets at the US, nor is the US indiscriminately bombing civilian centers. If Israel doesn't want any more rockets their way, they've got to stop indiscriminately killing Palestine's citizens.[/QUOTE] US doesn't bomb civilian centers? Seriously? What the fuck do you think we've been firing missiles at for the past 16 years? How do you think we've incurred over 250,000 civilian deaths in that time and counting. Hamas isn't firing rockets into Israel because Israel kills civilians. Hamas is firing rockets into Israel because they want to commit genocide on the Israeli people. Israel's only mistake to Hamas was existing.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52436926]Except your argument is irrelevant. North Korea isn't shooting rockets at the US, nor is the US indiscriminately bombing civilian centers. If Israel doesn't want any more rockets their way, they've got to stop indiscriminately killing Palestine's citizens.[/QUOTE] It's amazing how some random guy from europe can tell us how to solve our conflicts. If it looks so easy then maybe you should be the next president, smartass.

[QUOTE=RzDat;52437312]It's amazing how some random guy from europe can tell us how to solve our conflicts. If it looks so easy then maybe you should be the next president, smartass.[/QUOTE] man this politics stuff sure is hard, better just keep bombing them indefinitely ^^^ this is how you sound

[QUOTE=joost1120;52437034]That's really optimistic of you. Really explains the 9-1 kill ratio.[/QUOTE] Even with maximum effort it's impossible to avoid civilian casualties when you're fighting an enemy hiding in a VERY densely populated city. As for your idea of sending in troops, no sane military is going to send its soldiers into a sprawling urban city full of enemy guerrilla fighters anywhere from the streets, to all the windows, to the roofs, to the tunnels below their feet, with every door potentially booby-trapped and with an extremely hostile local populace that will probably report your position to Hamas if they haven't already found you anyway. Israel's military is not big and it can't just lose thousands of its fighting soldiers in an uphill battle. It will choose self-preservation over saving a hostile populace from a terrorist force because international bodies are making angry faces.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52437111]Thats whats called an "invasion" and going to war costs A LOT more lives than single strikes do. Look at what happened in 2014 in Gaza. Furthermore its a lot easier to just say "just send infantry in" than it actually is to do it. Put yourself in the boots of a guy making that decision. Do you risk the lives of your own troops, or risk the small potential of civilian deaths? The Hamas has become extremely lethal since theyve been fighting and training in Syria. Israel doesnt want to face them in ground combat for that reason. [editline]6th July 2017[/editline] What do you think a war is? One side is trying to kill the other and the other is responding with lethal force. Even then, let me clarify my statement since we're being semantic I guess. No country has ever taken military action, in a war or a not-war, at any point in time and hasnt incurred civilian casualties of some kind. [editline]6th July 2017[/editline] US doesn't bomb civilian centers? Seriously? What the fuck do you think we've been firing missiles at for the past 16 years? How do you think we've incurred over 250,000 civilian deaths in that time and counting. Hamas isn't firing rockets into Israel because Israel kills civilians. Hamas is firing rockets into Israel because they want to commit genocide on the Israeli people. Israel's only mistake to Hamas was existing.[/QUOTE] I am talking about the North Korean situation, smart ass. The US isn't bombing North Korean civilians. [editline]6th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Svinnik;52437062]Source the 9:1 kill ratio? If you're talking about that chart, it doesn't differentiate terrorists from civilians. Terrorists are legitimate targets. Wikipedia says: Honestly, at this point, you're just being willfully ignorant. I've sourced a lot of these things, I've presented arguments to you and you're just plugging your ears and saying oh that's not true.[/QUOTE] Because even though you come up with all these (what like 2?) sources, you're still bombing civilian centers, causing millions of dollars in damage and killing civilians. Even at your best estimate, Israel has killed 5k civilians. [editline]6th July 2017[/editline] There's countless schools being bombed because Israel doesn't think Palestinian schools are worth anything.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52437809]I am talking about the North Korean situation, smart ass. The US isn't bombing North Korean civilians. [editline]6th July 2017[/editline] Because even though you come up with all these (what like 2?) sources, you're still bombing civilian centers, causing millions of dollars in damage and killing civilians. Even at your best estimate, Israel has killed 5k civilians. [editline]6th July 2017[/editline] There's countless schools being bombed because Israel doesn't think Palestinian schools are worth anything.[/QUOTE] Schools don't get bombed unless Hamas fighters are operating from there or have stored weapons there. Civilians will die in war and stuff will be damaged but Israel's current method of warning before bombing is safest for everyone involved. Israel doesn't control Gaza and if they did what you suggested by launching an invasion for every rocket attack, a lot more civilians and Israelis would die. Bombing is the only good move that Israel has in response to unprovoked rocket attacks from Hamas.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52432548]Yes, it turns out that being stuck in one of the most densely populated areas in the world with a government who is willing to use you as a human shield will lead to you being more likely to be killed. I've already talked about this but the average civilian to enemy combatant death ratio for the US in Iraq/Afganistan was ~7:1. 7 civilians died for every 1 Taliban/insurgent fighter killed. In the last Gaza war, the ratio was around 1:1 or 2:3, depending on who you believed. Civilians will die in war but Israel minimizes civilian deaths. I've outlined how Israel tries to prevent civilian deaths. Google it if you don't believe me.[/QUOTE] I think comparing civilian to combatant deaths is important but not sufficient. Even with a 2:3 ratio, that's still 3 Palestinian civilian killed per 1 Israeli (don't know if those figures take into account Israeli combatants). When the reasoning behind the strikes is to protect the lives of innocent civilians, you have to consider whether the life of 1 Israeli civilian is worth that of 3 Palestinian civilians. Personally, I think that's debatable.

[QUOTE=Camdude90;52437685]man this politics stuff sure is hard, better just keep bombing them indefinitely ^^^ this is how you sound[/QUOTE] Say what you want, in the end i'm the one who is supposed to live in this reality while people like you who live comfortably in other countries will continue to pretend to know politics and keep interfering in affairs they don't even understand. Svinnik knows how to explain the situation in a good way and give examples about how it really is, yet you keep dismissing him with "b-but you're bombing civillians!!1"

I have to be honest, Israelis defending their government bombing civilian centres by saying 'only' 30% of the deaths are innocent civilians seems pretty fucking psychotic to me. 30% innocents dead is fucking abysmal, and the B'Tselem figure of between 56% and 74% is god damned atrocious. Bombing the shit out of civilians to take out a handful of terrorists is despicable. It's a fucking fantastic way of engendering further hatred from the civilians you're killing. How would you feel if our neighbours house was bombed into oblivion and your house was torn to shreds from the debris, and the reaction from the people who bombed you was "If we wanted to wipe [you] out we could have a long time ago."? You guys defending this say "Oh, well Hamas are the bad guys here. They're hiding behind human shields!" You know what a cop, or a soldier, generally does when someone takes a human shield? They don't fucking intentionally shoot the human shield in hopes of getting the guy behind them.

Yeah I'm going to be completely honest here. The arguments in this thread defending the actions of Israel have legitimately horrified me. Like, I understand that this is a complex nuanced conflict and there are two perspectives to everything going on- but fuck me you guys sure sound like the fucking "baddies". When "they didn't have a permit that we would never have granted them anyway, and that was all the excuse we needed to go into their town and destroy solar panels donated via international humanitarian aid " sounds remotely justified. When you take pride in such "low" civilian death tolls as [b] 30% [/b]. When you handwave these atrocious killings with "look, we could just kill them all if we really wanted to, but we haven't have we?" as if Israel is performing some gracious act of supreme kindness by simply "allowing most Palestinians to live". If anything, these arguments are making Israel look [i] so much worse[/i]

[QUOTE=RzDat;52437973]Say what you want, in the end i'm the one who is supposed to live in this reality while people like you who live comfortably in other countries will continue to pretend to know politics and keep interfering in affairs they don't even understand. Svinnik knows how to explain the situation in a good way and give examples about how it really is, yet you keep dismissing him with "b-[B]but you're bombing civillians!!1"[/B][/QUOTE] But Israel is. Whatever justifications you have, in the end you are bombing civillians. And many of us just dont agree with those justifications

[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;52438283]I have to be honest, Israelis defending their government bombing civilian centres by saying 'only' 30% of the deaths are innocent civilians seems pretty fucking psychotic to me. 30% innocents dead is fucking abysmal, and the B'Tselem figure of between 56% and 74% is god damned atrocious. Bombing the shit out of civilians to take out a handful of terrorists is despicable. It's a fucking fantastic way of engendering further hatred from the civilians you're killing. How would you feel if our neighbours house was bombed into oblivion and your house was torn to shreds from the debris, and the reaction from the people who bombed you was "If we wanted to wipe [you] out we could have a long time ago."? You guys defending this say "Oh, well Hamas are the bad guys here. They're hiding behind human shields!" You know what a cop, or a soldier, generally does when someone takes a human shield? They don't fucking intentionally shoot the human shield in hopes of getting the guy behind them.[/QUOTE] You're saying it as if i was justifying it. All i'm saying is that there will always be collateral damage and it cant be avoided. When you deal with a government body that acts as a terrorist group who hides their installments and launch attacks from civilian areas, use a large portion of their budget to build tunnels to try to infiltrate the country and kidnap civillians/go on a killing spree in a nearby town then you have to take the necessary precautions to bomb them. If you think i'm a psycho who thinks bombing Palestinian civilians is ok and justified, then you're dead wrong. I grew up in Sderot and most of my childhood and early teens i spent in bomb shelters after Hamas was elected party in Gaza. Imagine what it is to evacuate jewish settlements in Gaza in order to make peace with Palestinians and instead they elect a radical islamist party and starts flinging shit at you. So please, tell me what can Israel do to stop terrorist from attempting to infiltrate, kidnap and murder Israeli civilians. Give me a detailed plan to make us stop bombing Gaza.

[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;52438283]I have to be honest, Israelis defending their government bombing civilian centres by saying 'only' 30% of the deaths are innocent civilians seems pretty fucking psychotic to me. 30% innocents dead is fucking abysmal, and the B'Tselem figure of between 56% and 74% is god damned atrocious. Bombing the shit out of civilians to take out a handful of terrorists is despicable. It's a fucking fantastic way of engendering further hatred from the civilians you're killing. How would you feel if our neighbours house was bombed into oblivion and your house was torn to shreds from the debris, and the reaction from the people who bombed you was "If we wanted to wipe [you] out we could have a long time ago."? You guys defending this say "Oh, well Hamas are the bad guys here. They're hiding behind human shields!" You know what a cop, or a soldier, generally does when someone takes a human shield? They don't fucking intentionally shoot the human shield in hopes of getting the guy behind them.[/QUOTE] So what's the alternative? Israel goes out of its way to prevent civilian deaths as best as it can and that's really all that can be done. Also, remember that the Middle Eastern mindset values strength, if Israel doesn't respond to these rocket attacks, it loses face among Israelis and Palestinians alike. In a perfect world, Israel wouldn't have to do these bombings but it's what needs to be done and there will be civilian deaths when a bunch of terrorists in one of the most densely populated areas in the world shoot rockets from the middle of a city and store rockets in residential areas, schools, and mosques. People living in the West don't know how lucky they have it. For example, you're living in Ireland. Even at the worst of the Troubles, there was never a faction that wanted to kill all Catholics or kill all Protestants. Hamas has literally called to kill all Jews based on a hadith. [QUOTE]The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).[/QUOTE] They consider it an act of worship to die while trying to kill a Jew because it's an act of Jihad. For Hamas, there is no difference between an Israeli and a Jew, for them it's a war against the Jew and the Elders of Zion. Hamas is weak relative to Israel right now but with Iran forcing them to play nice with Hezbollah, Hamas will be much stronger soon. Hezbollah themselves also doesn't see this conflict as a political thing, they see it mostly as a religious thing. Nasrallah himself said that he wishes all that the Jews in the world would move to Israel so that they can all be wiped out at once. I've been in East Jerusalem during Ramadan on Friday night and the Palestinians celebrating Ramadan were chanting Ilba Al Yahud Inshallah (Kill the Jew, Allah willing). This is an enemy that is dedicated to the total destruction of Israel and the Jewish religion and this enemy cannot be stopped. They don't care about dying, it's a reward for them. In the West, you don't have any equivalent to this because religion has less of a influence in Western terrorism. While a Christian might shoot up an abortion clinic once in a while, there is no larger organization that embraces terrorism and promises a reward in the afterlife for terrorism. [editline]6th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=fulgrim;52438379]Yeah I'm going to be completely honest here. The arguments in this thread defending the actions of Israel have legitimately horrified me. Like, I understand that this is a complex nuanced conflict and there are two perspectives to everything going on- but fuck me you guys sure sound like the fucking "baddies". When "they didn't have a permit that we would never have granted them anyway, and that was all the excuse we needed to go into their town and destroy solar panels donated via international humanitarian aid " sounds remotely justified. When you take pride in such "low" civilian death tolls as [b] 30% [/b]. When you handwave these atrocious killings with "look, we could just kill them all if we really wanted to, but we haven't have we?" as if Israel is performing some gracious act of supreme kindness by simply "allowing most Palestinians to live". If anything, these arguments are making Israel look [i] so much worse[/i][/QUOTE] First, 30 percent is very low. Compare that to Iraq, where there was an estimated [I]77%[/I] civilian death toll. Iraq was not one of the densest places in the world where terrorists hid among regular civilians and then attack from nowhere. 30 percent in such a place is very low. People were making the stupid claim that Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinians. I responded with the fact that if we had wanted to do it, it would have been done a long time ago. Israel is not performing some act of kindness to let them live because Israel is not interested in a genocide. The permit thing, the village should have tried to get a permit. If they were refused, ask the Dutch to make a formal request via diplomatic channels. That's how things are normally done. You can't skip steps in bureaucracy. Should Israel have destroyed the panels? I don't think so.

My point is, if Israel really wants peace, why do they create their own enemies? There is no bigger motivation to fight an enemy than him blowing up houses in your neighbourhood, except for maybe killing your family. There's such an inappropriate escalation of force. Even without these bombings. If Palestinian kids throw rocks at soldiers, they risk getting shot (Not 100% legal according to Israel themselves, but it's happened before several times). While I 100% don't approve of the kids' actions, thrown rocks can cause serious damage, the soldiers just completely skips several steps in escalation of force.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52429622]For a less extreme example, Israel could stop calling the buildings that they are bombing. Currently Israel warns the people occupying a targeted building to get out and find cover. They could also stop using roof knocking techniques to scare civilians out of targeted buildings.[/QUOTE] This is the most bullshit argument that always appears in these threads. You know what a 'roof knock' is? It's a fucking bomb. A bomb that says "anywhere from a few seconds from now to days all of your possessions are going to be destroyed, and you might die". Tell me this- what good is a roof knock against militants? Why not just bomb the building outright? 'Roof knock' mortars are just an excuse to open fire on a building the IDF is very, [I]very[/I] unsure contains militants, but they believe it still [I]might[/I], so they want to destroy it anyways.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52438669]My point is, if Israel really wants peace, why do they create their own enemies? There is no bigger motivation to fight an enemy than him blowing up houses in your neighbourhood, except for maybe killing your family. There's such an inappropriate escalation of force. Even without these bombings. If Palestinian kids throw rocks at soldiers, they risk getting shot (Not 100% legal according to Israel themselves, but it's happened before several times). While I 100% don't approve of the kids' actions, thrown rocks can cause serious damage, the soldiers just completely skips several steps in escalation of force.[/QUOTE] Okay, so what should Israel do instead? We already established that an invasion is not realistic and that not responding at all is not realistic. Hamas [I]always[/I] attacks first, everything that Israel does is defensive.

[QUOTE=RzDat;52437973]Say what you want, in the end i'm the one who is supposed to live in this reality while people like you who live comfortably in other countries will continue to pretend to know politics and keep interfering in affairs they don't even understand. Svinnik knows how to explain the situation in a good way and give examples about how it really is, yet you keep dismissing him with "b-but you're bombing civillians!!1"[/QUOTE] "b-but you're bombing civillians!!1" yeah, pretty much you fucking psychopath.

[QUOTE=Radical_ed;52438694]This is the most bullshit argument that always appears in these threads. You know what a 'roof knock' is? It's a fucking bomb. A bomb that says "anywhere from a few seconds from now to days all of your possessions are going to be destroyed, and you might die". Tell me this- what good is a roof knock against militants? Why not just bomb the building outright? 'Roof knock' mortars are just an excuse to open fire on a building the IDF is very, [I]very[/I] unsure contains militants, but they believe it still [I]might[/I], so they want to destroy it anyways.[/QUOTE] Roof knocks are meant to get civilians out of the way who want to stay in their home. It's meant to get everyone out of the house. It's so effective that the US is now using it in their ISIS bombings. [editline]6th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Radical_ed;52438703]"b-but you're bombing civillians!!1" yeah, pretty much you fucking psychopath.[/QUOTE] There is no real alternative. Civilians will always die in war, it's a sad fact. The people of Gaza voted for Hamas, Hamas attacks Israel, and while Israel tries to stop civilian casualties, civilians will die anyway because Hamas doesn't stop trying to attack Israel.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52438700]Okay, so what should Israel do instead? We already established that an invasion is not realistic and that not responding at all is not realistic. Hamas [I]always[/I] attacks first, everything that Israel does is defensive.[/QUOTE] You don't need a full-scale invasion to capture terrorists.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52438727]You don't need a full-scale invasion to capture terrorists.[/QUOTE] You do when the Gaza strip is literally run and administered by Hamas, a terrorist organization.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52438733]You do when the Gaza strip is literally run and administered by Hamas, a terrorist organization.[/QUOTE] Considering Russian troops can assassinate leaders in ISIS camps, Israel should be able to send a few men to recover the weapons.

Relating back to the topic, I really fail to see how stealing a QOL improvement and potential livelihood from people is supposed to dissuade people from becoming terrorists. Seems kinda counter-productive from an economic influence point of view, also it's kind of an asshole move.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52438749]Considering Russian troops can assassinate leaders in ISIS camps, Israel should be able to send a few men to recover the weapons.[/QUOTE] Moving hundreds of pounds of rockets is not the same as killing a leader. Besides, the situation in Gaza makes it impossible for Israeli special forces to infiltrate Gaza. If such high value targets like Muhammad Deif, al-Rantisi, and Yassin didn't warrant infantry assassinations then hundreds of pounds of rockets will not warrant an infiltration.