Israel seizes solar panels donated to Palestinians by Dutch government - Polidicks

[QUOTE=ScumBunny;52445736][URL="http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Poll-60-percent-of-Palestinians-support-attacks-447814"]http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Poll-60-percent-of-Palestinians-support-attacks-447814[/URL][/QUOTE] I'd rather trust the more recent poll by a more trustworthy source. [editline]8th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52445238]I'm not getting hostile, just pointing out how foolish youte being. You've been giving terrible suggestions and making awful comparisons throughout this thread. Even after people tell you youre wrong and why youre wrong, you keep pushing. I'm sure not all civilians in Gaza want every Jew on earth or in Israel killed. A lot are merely caught in the crossfire of a terrible war. But maybe if you don't want to get bombed, dont elect a terrorist group that wants the destruction of Israel as your governing body, especially one thats going to use you as a human shield because it doesn't posess the power to effectively fight Israel. Sorry for dealing in absolutes, but youre suggesting that Hamas doesn't want the destruction of Israel, despite them saying so for over 25 years. Claiming theyre exaggerating or writing it off as "soldier talk" is something an apologist would do, so excuse me for doing the mental gymnastics to put 2 and 2 together. Theres mountains of evidence to suggest otherwise, straight from the group youre defending. So you're either an apologist or horribly misinformed on the ordeal.[/QUOTE] Because you're the one telling me wrong, but so far you're also the one that's been wrong about most things you've said. You said Hamas could freely visit Jerusalem if they weren't assholes. Completely wrong, as you can't leave nor enter the Gaza strip. You say Hamas doesn't accept peace treaties, yet they clearly do, even if it clearly helps Israel. You said the Gaza strip isn't controlled by Israel, when literally everyone in the world says it's still being occupied. You said IDF soldiers entering Gaza would trigger a full scale war with political repercussions, yet they are allowed to enter, and have done so several times already without any problem. You keep saying I am misinformed but practically nothing you've said so far holds up. You say I don't anything about the conflict, when you yourself just can't figure out why people in a suppressed and occupied land try to bomb you. Hamas wasn't elected because they want to destroy Israel. Hamas was elected because it opposes their enemy and wants to free Gaza.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52446143]I'd rather trust the more recent poll by a more trustworthy source. [editline]8th July 2017[/editline] Because you're the one telling me wrong, but so far you're also the one that's been wrong about most things you've said. You said Hamas could freely visit Jerusalem if they weren't assholes. Completely wrong, as you can't leave nor enter the Gaza strip. You say Hamas doesn't accept peace treaties, yet they clearly do, even if it clearly helps Israel. You said the Gaza strip isn't controlled by Israel, when literally everyone in the world says it's still being occupied. You said IDF soldiers entering Gaza would trigger a full scale war with political repercussions, yet they are allowed to enter, and have done so several times already without any problem. You keep saying I am misinformed but practically nothing you've said so far holds up. You say I don't anything about the conflict, when you yourself just can't figure out why people in a suppressed and occupied land try to bomb you. Hamas wasn't elected because they want to destroy Israel. Hamas was elected because it opposes their enemy and wants to free Gaza.[/QUOTE] Im baffled by the fact that you're still defending an organization who uses its civilian population as human shields, use jihad tactics and shares ideas and ideologies with other radical Islamic jihad groups like ISIS and Al Qaeda. Not to mention that Hamas is purely the reason Gaza is under blockade and the Palestinians who dare to express their opinion against them are dragged around the street by thugs in motorcycles. You're a liar if you think you're defending the Palestinian people, the amount of people Hamas executed for supporting Fatah, the amount of people they imprison and the amount of pain and suffering they induced on innocent people. Even if Gaza was truely "free" they would still be the same religious fanatic group they are today and opress their own people just like any arab country in the middle east. The injustice, the corruption and the greed is all the same. Even without Israel it would still look like another religious shithole in the middle east that executes gay people and rain heavy sanctions on non believers.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52437029]You don't seem to understand so I'll break it down to simple steps. A. Hamas is doing nothing, Israel is doing nothing. Hamas is dedicated to waging Jihad against Israel/the Jewish Elders of Zion. Quoting their manifesto: Shooting rockets at Israeli civilians is an act of worship for Hamas. B. Hamas shoots a rocket at Israel, making them the aggressor. The rocket gets intercepted by Iron Dome. C. Israel already has intelligence from spies implanted in Hamas about where rocket caches are and where the rocket was launched from. They drop leaflets and make phone calls to Palestinians who will be effected by the upcoming bombing. D. Having given affected Palestinians a few hours to evacuate, Israel then drops a roof knocking bomb. At this point, if too many civilians are around the area that will be bombed, the mission will be called off. E. Israel then bombs the rocket cache. Any civilians around were warned hours beforehand and it's their fault if they stuck around. Where's the indiscriminate killing? Israel's warned the civilians three times in a few hours to get out.[/QUOTE] and then they lose their homes and everything they didn't manage to get out with them when they evacuated and even then they still manage to kill a shitton of civilians

[QUOTE=joost1120;52446143] Because you're the one telling me wrong, but so far you're also the one that's been wrong about most things you've said.[/quote] K [QUOTE=joost1120;52446143] You said Hamas could freely visit Jerusalem if they weren't assholes. Completely wrong, as you can't leave nor enter the Gaza strip.[/quote] If my point went any further over your head it would collide with the ISS. My point was that Muslims and other people if Gaza could freely move within the territory were not for them being clearly hostile. [QUOTE=joost1120;52446143] You say Hamas doesn't accept peace treaties, yet they clearly do, even if it clearly helps Israel.[/quote] Yet the Hamas is always the first one to break such treaties. Theyll sign them with a smile on their face while they build more rockets to fire into Israel. [QUOTE=joost1120;52446143] You said the Gaza strip isn't controlled by Israel, when literally everyone in the world says it's still being occupied.[/Quote] I'm going to drop this point because its purely semantic. [QUOTE=joost1120;52446143] You said IDF soldiers entering Gaza would trigger a full scale war with political repercussions, yet they are allowed to enter, and have done so several times already without any problem.[/quote] If they enter under a military mission to retrieve or destroy enemy munitions, it would trigger a war. Just like it did in Operation Protective Edge. If Israel entered Gaza with the intention to cause destructiom, you think the Hamas wouldn't respond? [QUOTE=joost1120;52446143] You keep saying I am misinformed but practically nothing you've said so far holds up. You say I don't anything about the conflict, when you yourself just can't figure out why people in a suppressed and occupied land try to bomb you. Hamas wasn't elected because they want to destroy Israel. Hamas was elected because it opposes their enemy and wants to free Gaza.[/QUOTE] I honestly can't comprehend how you can be defending the Hamas like theyre defenders of freedom, when they themselves are waging a war to destroy Israel. This isn't speculation or theories, they have literally founded themselves on the ideals of Israels destruction. You can find this on the goddamn websites they run and the speeches of their leaders. You're wrong and you're so delusional, or such an apologist, that you won't listen to reason and you willingly ignore or write off facts and citations.

[QUOTE=RzDat;52446268]Im baffled by the fact that you're still defending an organization who uses its civilian population as human shields, use jihad tactics and shares ideas and ideologies with other radical Islamic jihad groups like ISIS and Al Qaeda. Not to mention that Hamas is purely the reason Gaza is under blockade and the Palestinians who dare to express their opinion against them are dragged around the street by thugs in motorcycles. You're a liar if you think you're defending the Palestinian people, the amount of people Hamas executed for supporting Fatah, the amount of people they imprison and the amount of pain and suffering they induced on innocent people. Even if Gaza was truely "free" they would still be the same religious fanatic group they are today and opress their own people just like any arab country in the middle east. The injustice, the corruption and the greed is all the same. Even without Israel it would still look like another religious shithole in the middle east that executes gay people and rain heavy sanctions on non believers.[/QUOTE] You seem to be under the impression that the shitty situation in the middle east is caused by Islam. However, if you look back about 50 years you'll see that most of the middle east was actually quite prosperous and civilized. The middle east being a "shit hole that executes gay people and rain heavy sanctions on non believers" is a relatively recent thing, and is not synonymous with primarily Islamic nations. To put a complicated situation as simply as possible, what really caused the shitty situation in the middle east is the near constant state of conflict in the region the last many decades, a large portion of which was directly or indirectly instigated by outside forces during the cold war. Hamas is terrible. However, shit organizations like Hamas, Al-Qaeda and ISIS are directly created and fueled by this continuing conflict. Trying to stamp it out with missile strikes is literally directly causing the opposite effect. For every militant you kill, two more will join their ranks. Every civilian you kill or leave without a home increases the popular support for Hamas. This strategy simply does not function.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52444617]West kills more civilians on average than Israel. Refer back to my earlier posts where i talk about it.[/QUOTE] what the fuck is this post? doing something shitty is still doing something shitty. I dont give a shit about the west in this discussion I give a shit about israel doing it because thats what's relevant here.

[QUOTE=Mud;52446877]what the fuck is this post? doing something shitty is still doing something shitty. I dont give a shit about the west in this discussion I give a shit about israel doing it because thats what's relevant here.[/QUOTE] His point is that Israel's tactics are founded on the basis of not killing or harming civilians. Israel has avoided civilian casualties so effectively that theyve killed about a 10th of the number of civilians in Iraq in a longer time span. Civilian casualties are extremely limited in the Gaza strip despite its immensely dense population. [editline]8th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=elowin;52446827]You seem to be under the impression that the shitty situation in the middle east is caused by Islam. However, if you look back about 50 years you'll see that most of the middle east was actually quite prosperous and civilized. The middle east being a "shit hole that executes gay people and rain heavy sanctions on non believers" is a relatively recent thing, and is not synonymous with primarily Islamic nations. To put a complicated situation as simply as possible, what really caused the shitty situation in the middle east is the near constant state of conflict in the region the last many decades, a large portion of which was directly or indirectly instigated by outside forces during the cold war. Hamas is terrible. However, shit organizations like Hamas, Al-Qaeda and ISIS are directly created and fueled by this continuing conflict. Trying to stamp it out with missile strikes is literally directly causing the opposite effect. For every militant you kill, two more will join their ranks. Every civilian you kill or leave without a home increases the popular support for Hamas. This strategy simply does not function.[/QUOTE] Neither strategy really functions. You can't expect a nation to sit on their hands and ignore terrorist attacks. It only makes your populace more pissed and stressed because of their governments inaction. Dropping pamphlets and building schools dont help to change the minds if people who were bread in warfare. What you need is a combination of both and a lot of time. The Cold War used Islam as a vessel to cause this violence and not it needs to use it as a vessel to end this violence.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52446143]I'd rather trust the more recent poll by a more trustworthy source. [/QUOTE] How about the [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Center_for_Policy_and_Survey_Research"]PCPSR[/URL]? [URL="http://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/623"]http://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/623[/URL] (2015) [QUOTE]Findings of the last quarter of 2015 indicate a continuation of three recent developments documented in our last poll in September: two thirds continue to demand the resignation of president Abbas; [B]a growing majority supports return to an armed intifada; and a growing majority continues to reject the two-state solution. Moreover, while a majority supports ending PA commitment to the Oslo agreement[/B], a similar majority doubts Abbas’ seriousness about abandoning that agreement. As we found in our last poll in September, the “Oslo generation” of youth between the ages of 18 and 22 are the most supportive of an armed intifada and stabbings and the least supportive of the two-state solution.[/QUOTE] [URL="http://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/676"]http://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/676[/URL] (2016) [QUOTE]Moreover, findings also show an increase in the percentage of those who favor the abandonment of the Oslo agreement. [B]More significantly however, the poll found a majority in favor of armed attacks and a return to armed intifada.[/B] During the past nine months, support for violence has been in retreat. The overwhelming majority of the public sees nothing but incitement against Arabs in Netanyahu’s claim that some of the recent fires in Israel were initiated by Palestinians. Moreover, there is almost a consensus among the public that the decision by the Israeli government to ban the use of loudspeakers in the mosques’ call for prayer is tantamount to declaring war against Islam.[/QUOTE] However: [URL="http://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/678"]http://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/678[/URL] (2017) [QUOTE][B]A majority of Israelis (55%) and a large minority of Palestinians (44%) support the two-state solution.[/B] By contrast, support for a one-state solution stands at 36% among Palestinians, 19% among Israeli Jews and 56% among Israeli Arabs.[/QUOTE] Let's unpack this. As usual, everyone here is going to extremes to vilify one side or the other. The Palestinians want to murder all the Jews. The Israelis are trying to push all Palestinians out and take over their land. Terrorists. Nazis. Whatever. The reality, as I keep trying to explain, is way more nuanced and full of gray. Is Israel breeding terrorism by continuing to allow settlements? Yes and no. It's really a chicken and egg thing. The fact is that multiple elected Israeli leaders have staked their careers (Barak, Sharon), lives (Rabin) and the safety of their citizens attempting to reach the two state solution. They've offered most of the land the Palestinians demanded, even East Jerusalem, monetary compensations, a partial right of return, economic cooperation. Even Netanyahu, the most right wing and pro settler Israeli leader ever was willing to go along with Obama's most recent peace plan. And every single time Arafat and then Abbas pulled out at the last moment and chose to pursue their goals through other means like the second Intifada or international pressure. Even when Israel tried to just unilaterally pull out of Gaza, dismantling ALL freaking settlements there and leaving all their structures and facilities intact for the Palestinians as a gesture of goodwill do you know what Happened? Hamas violently took over, burned down all the Israeli buildings and started firing hundreds of rockets a day into Israeli cities across the border, leaving Israel (and Egypt) no choice but to blockade the strip. So why do Palestinian leaders keep chickening out of a peace treaty? Probably mostly because of internal Palestinian politics. See, Hamas generally has more support in the Palestinian public than Fatah, who control the Palestinian Authority. Hamas run on a platform of resistance to Israel. The reason Fatah hasn't had elections since before the Gaza civil war is because Hamas would win those elections, so Fatah holds on to the PA by their and Israel's armed force. Which means, of course, any compromise with Israel could be perceived as weakness and provide Hamas with even more support in the Palestinian public, perhaps enough to start another civil war in the West Bank. No Fatah leader so far has been willing to risk his own ass for a chance at peace. Again, in stark contrast to multiple Israeli leader who were elected on a platform of peace, then drummed out of office when they failed (or, you know, murdered). Netanyahu's almost two decades of undisputed power were built on the backs of many failed left and center leaders. The Israeli Labor party, the one that founded the nation and was the most powerful for decades since has been demolished and literally lost all chances of being in charge again after betting too many times on peace. How about Hamas? Turn out they're pretty pragmatic too. They don't really think they can wipe out Israel and they're not particularly keen on taking on Israel either, considering the thrashing they receive every time they do.But they kind of painted themselves into a corner being the ones that are all about resistance. Meaning they can't ever publicly commit to a permanent peace treaty and give up on the rest of Israel. They're willing to offer Hudna's or temporary truces, but never peace. And considering they usually break all truces within hours of starting them owing to the so-so control of the political wing over the military one, well, not the best peace partner for Israel. Worse yet, their ongoing power struggle with Fatah and the PA means they're almost out of funding sources and being the de-facto government of the Gaza strip means thy're pretty much the only one there paying salaries. No cash means lots of hungry, angry constitutes. And with the PA cutting off even the funding for their power and Israel not being willing to pick up the slack they don't even have electricity most of the day. Talking peace now would pretty much be admitting defeat, and there are plenty of even more hungry, belligerent factions waiting on the sidelines waiting to pick up the slack if they seem too soft: Islamic Jihad, Al Qaeda, even Isis. So they try to keep a lid on things as much as they can, keep the violence to a necessary minimum and build up for the next inevitable round of violence when things get bad enough that they have to fuck with Israel again to justify their existence. And all this time both Israelis and Palestinians are losing hope for peace ever happening, putting their faith more and more into violence even though that path is clearly only making things worse for everyone, and even though the peace process was the only thing ever in the last three decades that ever brought any improvement to things and even though everyone, even Hamas and even Netanyahu know it. And you know what? Even now most Israelis and quite a lot of Palestinians still believe in peace. See that 2017 survey above. For the billionth time, playing the blame game doesn't solve anything. No side is inherently evil. No side is trying to exterminate the other, or has some secret nefarious agenda only you can see. We're just two (well, three) groups of jerks stuck in a situation where being jerks to each other is the only thing we can do, and that's how it's going to stay until we get two leaders with four balls to them who can get this stupid fucking conflict over with so we can all focus on more important things like, I don't know, whatever you people do.

[QUOTE=ScumBunny;52447077]How about the [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Center_for_Policy_and_Survey_Research"]PCPSR[/URL]? [URL="http://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/623"]http://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/623[/URL] (2015) [URL="http://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/676"]http://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/676[/URL] (2016) However: [URL="http://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/678"]http://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/678[/URL] (2017) Let's unpack this. As usual, everyone here is going to extremes to vilify one side or the other. The Palestinians want to murder all the Jews. The Israelis are trying to push all Palestinians out and take over their land. Terrorists. Nazis. Whatever. The reality, as I keep trying to explain, is way more nuanced and full of gray. Is Israel breeding terrorism by continuing to allow settlements? Yes and no. It's really a chicken and egg thing. The fact is that multiple elected Israeli leaders have staked their careers (Barak, Sharon), lives (Rabin) and the safety of their citizens attempting to reach the two state solution. They've offered most of the land the Palestinians demanded, even East Jerusalem, monetary compensations, a partial right of return, economic cooperation. Even Netanyahu, the most right wing and pro settler Israeli leader ever was willing to go along with Obama's most recent peace plan. And every single time Arafat and then Abbas pulled out at the last moment and chose to pursue their goals through other means like the second Intifada or international pressure. Even when Israel tried to just unilaterally pull out of Gaza, dismantling ALL freaking settlements there and leaving all their structures and facilities intact for the Palestinians as a gesture of goodwill do you know what Happened? Hamas violently took over, burned down all the Israeli buildings and started firing hundreds of rockets a day into Israeli cities across the border, leaving Israel (and Egypt) no choice but to blockade the strip. So why do Palestinian leaders keep chickening out of a peace treaty? Probably mostly because of internal Palestinian politics. See, Hamas generally has more support in the Palestinian public than Fatah, who control the Palestinian Authority. Hamas run on a platform of resistance to Israel. The reason Fatah hasn't had elections since before the Gaza civil war is because Hamas would win those elections, so Fatah holds on to the PA by their and Israel's armed force. Which means, of course, any compromise with Israel could be perceived as weakness and provide Hamas with even more support in the Palestinian public, perhaps enough to start another civil war in the West Bank. No Fatah leader so far has been willing to risk his own ass for a chance at peace. Again, in stark contrast to multiple Israeli leader who were elected on a platform of peace, then drummed out of office when they failed (or, you know, murdered). Netanyahu's almost two decades of undisputed power were built on the backs of many failed left and center leaders. The Israeli Labor party, the one that founded the nation and was the most powerful for decades since has been demolished and literally lost all chances of being in charge again after betting too many times on peace. How about Hamas? Turn out they're pretty pragmatic too. They don't really think they can wipe out Israel and they're not particularly keen on taking on Israel either, considering the thrashing they receive every time they do.But they kind of painted themselves into a corner being the ones that are all about resistance. Meaning they can't ever publicly commit to a permanent peace treaty and give up on the rest of Israel. They're willing to offer Hudna's or temporary truces, but never peace. And considering they usually break all truces within hours of starting them owing to the so-so control of the political wing over the military one, well, not the best peace partner for Israel. Worse yet, their ongoing power struggle with Fatah and the PA means they're almost out of funding sources and being the de-facto government of the Gaza strip means thy're pretty much the only one there paying salaries. No cash means lots of hungry, angry constitutes. And with the PA cutting off even the funding for their power and Israel not being willing to pick up the slack they don't even have electricity most of the day. Talking peace now would pretty much be admitting defeat, and there are plenty of even more hungry, belligerent factions waiting on the sidelines waiting to pick up the slack if they seem too soft: Islamic Jihad, Al Qaeda, even Isis. So they try to keep a lid on things as much as they can, keep the violence to a necessary minimum and build up for the next inevitable round of violence when things get bad enough that they have to fuck with Israel again to justify their existence. And all this time both Israelis and Palestinians are losing hope for peace ever happening, putting their faith more and more into violence even though that path is clearly only making things worse for everyone, and even though the peace process was the only thing ever in the last three decades that ever brought any improvement to things and even though everyone, even Hamas and even Netanyahu know it. And you know what? Even now most Israelis and quite a lot of Palestinians still believe in peace. See that 2017 survey above. For the billionth time, playing the blame game doesn't solve anything. No side is inherently evil. No side is trying to exterminate the other, or has some secret nefarious agenda only you can see. We're just two (well, three) groups of jerks stuck in a situation where being jerks to each other is the only thing we can do, and that's how it's going to stay until we get two leaders with four balls to them who can get this stupid fucking conflict over with so we can all focus on more important things like, I don't know, whatever you people do.[/QUOTE] Now this is a post I liked reading. In the end, Hamas is still a terrorist organization. Their origins stem from the fight for freedom and people join them to hopefully one day bring peace to the Gaza strip. I don't approve of their methods. The whole Israel-Gaza situation is like someone lighting a firecracker in their hand, and then getting mad because it explodes. [editline]8th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52446897]His point is that Israel's tactics are founded on the basis of not killing or harming civilians. Israel has avoided civilian casualties so effectively that theyve killed about a 10th of the number of civilians in Iraq in a longer time span. Civilian casualties are extremely limited in the Gaza strip despite its immensely dense population. [editline]8th July 2017[/editline] Neither strategy really functions. You can't expect a nation to sit on their hands and ignore terrorist attacks. It only makes your populace more pissed and stressed because of their governments inaction. Dropping pamphlets and building schools dont help to change the minds if people who were bread in warfare. What you need is a combination of both and a lot of time. The Cold War used Islam as a vessel to cause this violence and not it needs to use it as a vessel to end this violence.[/QUOTE] The IDF might have been minimizing civilian casualties, but they aren't afraid of collateral damage. They've also outright denied the fact that the majority of casualties during the conflicts were civilian. As occupier, Israel is obligated to protect the civilians. Even if terrorists are hiding weapons in buildings, Israel is not allowed to bomb it if there could still be civilians inside. Even if Israel fires a warning bomb or calls the house first, they still break their obligation. Hiding weapons in buildings used by civilians (Protected persons) is unlawful, but it does not legally justify Israel's bombing of areas where civilians reside. The Human Rights Watch says the IDF has presented no information to show it was attacking lawful military objectives or acted to minimize civilian casualties.

[QUOTE=Mud;52446877]what the fuck is this post? doing something shitty is still doing something shitty. I dont give a shit about the west in this discussion I give a shit about israel doing it because thats what's relevant here.[/QUOTE] it's the soviet whataboutism but israel-flavour pack "Dude, the IDF army is killing civilians like it doesn't give a fuck" "bu bu but the US does that also!" "Dude, the Area C is treating palestinians like shit and puts them in a weak labour position" "Bu bu but US companies do the same in Asian countries!" And so on...

[QUOTE=joost1120;52447493]Now this is a post I liked reading. In the end, Hamas is still a terrorist organization. Their origins stem from the fight for freedom and people join them to hopefully one day bring peace to the Gaza strip. I don't approve of their methods. The whole Israel-Gaza situation is like someone lighting a firecracker in their hand, and then getting mad because it explodes. [editline]8th July 2017[/editline] The IDF might have been minimizing civilian casualties, but they aren't afraid of collateral damage. They've also outright denied the fact that the majority of casualties during the conflicts were civilian. As occupier, Israel is obligated to protect the civilians. Even if terrorists are hiding weapons in buildings, Israel is not allowed to bomb it if there could still be civilians inside. Even if Israel fires a warning bomb or calls the house first, they still break their obligation. Hiding weapons in buildings used by civilians (Protected persons) is unlawful, but it does not legally justify Israel's bombing of areas where civilians reside. The Human Rights Watch says the IDF has presented no information to show it was attacking lawful military objectives or acted to minimize civilian casualties.[/QUOTE] Again, what are the alternatives? We've established that getting soldiers to carry out the rockets is unrealistic, we've established that the only real way to get the rockets destroyed is via bombings. Hamas will not bring peace to the Gaza Strip. Peace is against their goal as an organization. [editline]8th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Cutthecrap;52447811]it's the soviet whataboutism but israel-flavour pack "Dude, the IDF army is killing civilians like it doesn't give a fuck" "bu bu but the US does that also!" "Dude, the Area C is treating palestinians like shit and puts them in a weak labour position" "Bu bu but US companies do the same in Asian countries!" And so on...[/QUOTE] How about you actually read the posts on the Israeli side instead of making retarded strawmen? It's sad that civilians die in war but Israel is doing the best it can to minimize the deaths, especially when you compare Israel to the US in Iraq. The treatment of Palestinians in Area C is problematic but considering the Palestinian public's majority support of Hamas, I can see why Israel acts in this way.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52447963]Again, what are the alternatives? We've established that getting soldiers to carry out the rockets is unrealistic, we've established that the only real way to get the rockets destroyed is via bombings. Hamas will not bring peace to the Gaza Strip. Peace is against their goal as an organization.[/QUOTE] Okay, lets just assume it from your point of view. The rockets can't be taken out by any other means. That still doesn't give you the legal right to bomb civilian houses. It's technically even a war crime. Hamas' goal is to bring peace to the Gaza strip by rebelling against Israel. Gaza can't sustain itself with the way Israel is throttling it. We're going to be looking at a big crisis in the following years if nothing changes. There needs to be change, so Hamas is fighting Israel to loosen it's grip on Gaza.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52446143]I'd rather trust the more recent poll by a more trustworthy source. [editline]8th July 2017[/editline] Because you're the one telling me wrong, but so far you're also the one that's been wrong about most things you've said. You said Hamas could freely visit Jerusalem if they weren't assholes. Completely wrong, as you can't leave nor enter the Gaza strip. You say Hamas doesn't accept peace treaties, yet they clearly do, even if it clearly helps Israel. You said the Gaza strip isn't controlled by Israel, when literally everyone in the world says it's still being occupied. You said IDF soldiers entering Gaza would trigger a full scale war with political repercussions, yet they are allowed to enter, and have done so several times already without any problem. You keep saying I am misinformed but practically nothing you've said so far holds up. You say I don't anything about the conflict, when you yourself just can't figure out why people in a suppressed and occupied land try to bomb you. Hamas wasn't elected because they want to destroy Israel. Hamas was elected because it opposes their enemy and wants to free Gaza.[/QUOTE] Palestinians can leave and enter the Gaza strip, I've literally been to Erez and watched people enter Israel and Gaza. Hamas only accepts ceasefires and they are always the first side that breaks the ceasefires. When has the IDF entered the Gaza strip without violence? Give me an example. The Gaza Blockade doesn't fit the definition of an occupation: [QUOTE]the action, state, or period of occupying or being occupied by military force. [/QUOTE] Is there a secret Israeli settlement somewhere in Gaza that no one knows about? Calling the Jerusalem post not trustworthy is honestly bullshit: [URL="https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-jerusalem-post/"]https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-jerusalem-post/[/URL] It's more credible than CNN at this point. [editline]8th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=joost1120;52447986]Okay, lets just assume it from your point of view. The rockets can't be taken out by any other means. That still doesn't give you the legal right to bomb civilian houses. It's technically even a war crime. Hamas' goal is to bring peace to the Gaza strip by rebelling against Israel. Gaza can't sustain itself with the way Israel is throttling it. We're going to be looking at a big crisis in the following years if nothing changes. There needs to be change, so Hamas is fighting Israel to loosen it's grip on Gaza.[/QUOTE] Israel [I]has[/I] loosened its grip on Gaza and it didn't lead anywhere. Originally, the blockade operated by a whitelist system where only the supplies on the whitelist could get through. This was deemed too harsh so the Israelis switched to a blacklist system where anything could get into Gaza with the exception of a few things. Israel gave Hamas cement, Hamas built terror tunnels leading into Israel with the concrete instead of repairing hospitals, building houses, etc. Hamas has outlined its goal in its charter where it says quite clearly that the goal of Hamas to liberate Palestine via Jihad. Any other way is illegitimate. [QUOTE]Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know." Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers? "But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120). There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith: "The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."[/QUOTE] About your saying it's a war crime: "Any attack must be justified by military necessity: An attack or action must be intended to help in the military defeat of the enemy, it must be an attack on a military objective, and the harm caused to civilians or civilian property must be proportional and not excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated. Legitimate military targets include: armed forces and persons who take part in the fighting; positions or installations occupied by armed forces as well as objectives that are directly contested in battle; military installations such as barracks, war ministries, munitions or fuel dumps, storage yards for vehicles, airfields, rocket launch ramps, and naval bases. Note: Some of these may be civilian institutions, such as a university being used for academic research in peacetime being used for military research in time of war. Universities may be prime targets as a result. Factories making stereo equipment may be pressed into service for the manufacture of telecoms hardware." It is legal for the IDF to bomb civilian homes if they are confirmed to be holding missiles (they are) If the IDF takes steps to minimize civilian casualities (they do) And if the IDF stands to gain a military advantage from it (they do)

[QUOTE=joost1120;52447986]Okay, lets just assume it from your point of view. The rockets can't be taken out by any other means. That still doesn't give you the legal right to bomb civilian houses. It's technically even a war crime. Hamas' goal is to bring peace to the Gaza strip by rebelling against Israel. Gaza can't sustain itself with the way Israel is throttling it. We're going to be looking at a big crisis in the following years if nothing changes. There needs to be change, so Hamas is fighting Israel to loosen it's grip on Gaza.[/QUOTE] Again, what solutions do you propose? So far youve made the wonderful suggestion to just send infantry in, which has proven to cause massive casualties in the past, or for Israel to just rely on air defences and not respond. Is it really a civilian house if its being used to store arms and munitions? This is a purely semantic argument I'm making, but its relevant to the current issue in Gaza. The goal of Hamas is to bring peace to Gaza by destroying Israel. I'm not talking about the grunts in their midst, I'm talking about the overall goal of that group. Thats not something you can debate with me about, that is literally their goal that they have stated time and time again. Quit trying to portray Hamas as some sort of tragic hero or the righteous underdogs. They are a terrorist group bent on genocide. Just because they want the Gaza strip to be autonomous doesn't mean they arent terrorists. [editline]8th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=joost1120;52447493]Now this is a post I liked reading. In the end, Hamas is still a terrorist organization. Their origins stem from the fight for freedom and people join them to hopefully one day bring peace to the Gaza strip. I don't approve of their methods. The whole Israel-Gaza situation is like someone lighting a firecracker in their hand, and then getting mad because it explodes. [editline]8th July 2017[/editline] The IDF might have been minimizing civilian casualties, but they aren't afraid of collateral damage. They've also outright denied the fact that the majority of casualties during the conflicts were civilian. As occupier, Israel is obligated to protect the civilians. Even if terrorists are hiding weapons in buildings, Israel is not allowed to bomb it if there could still be civilians inside. Even if Israel fires a warning bomb or calls the house first, they still break their obligation. Hiding weapons in buildings used by civilians (Protected persons) is unlawful, but it does not legally justify Israel's bombing of areas where civilians reside. The Human Rights Watch says the IDF has presented no information to show it was attacking lawful military objectives or acted to minimize civilian casualties.[/QUOTE] To reiterate, what should Israel do then? Not react to civilians aiding terrorists?

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52448057]Again, what solutions do you propose? So far youve made the wonderful suggestion to just send infantry in, which has proven to cause massive casualties in the past, or for Israel to just rely on air defences and not respond. Is it really a civilian house if its being used to store arms and munitions? This is a purely semantic argument I'm making, but its relevant to the current issue in Gaza. The goal of Hamas is to bring peace to Gaza by destroying Israel. I'm not talking about the grunts in their midst, I'm talking about the overall goal of that group. Thats not something you can debate with me about, that is literally their goal that they have stated time and time again. Quit trying to portray Hamas as some sort of tragic hero or the righteous underdogs. They are a terrorist group bent on genocide. Just because they want the Gaza strip to be autonomous doesn't mean they arent terrorists.[/QUOTE] Has it ever occurred in your mind that I have been calling Hamas terrorists this entire time? I have said several times I don't condone Hamas' actions. [editline]9th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Svinnik;52447993]Palestinians can leave and enter the Gaza strip, I've literally been to Erez and watched people enter Israel and Gaza. Hamas only accepts ceasefires and they are always the first side that breaks the ceasefires. When has the IDF entered the Gaza strip without violence? Give me an example. The Gaza Blockade doesn't fit the definition of an occupation: Is there a secret Israeli settlement somewhere in Gaza that no one knows about? Calling the Jerusalem post not trustworthy is honestly bullshit: [URL="https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-jerusalem-post/"]https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-jerusalem-post/[/URL] It's more credible than CNN at this point.[/QUOTE] Palestinians can't [B]FREELY[/B] leave the Gaza strip. Only in "exceptional humanitarian"cases are they allowed to travel via the Erez or Rafah border crossing. As far as I know, the Rafah border crossing is permanently closed. [QUOTE] When has the IDF entered the Gaza strip without violence? Give me an example.[/QUOTE] Irrelevant. Hamas will fire on IDF if they see them, and the IDF will fire on Hamas. I am talking about the fact that they can legally enter the Gaza strip with armed forces. [QUOTE] The Gaza Blockade doesn't fit the definition of an occupation:[/QUOTE] We went over this already. It doesn't fit your definition of occupation, it does fit the UN's and practically every human rights organization's definition. [QUOTE] Calling the Jerusalem post not trustworthy is honestly bullshit:[/QUOTE] That's not what I said. I said the Jerusalem post seems less trustworthy than a thinktank researching the Middle East for 30 years. Any media is less trustworthy than a research program. [editline]9th July 2017[/editline] Israel loosened it's grip on Gaza by allowing a bit more supplies to enter. They've still got the noose tight though.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52448070]Has it ever occurred in your mind that I have been calling Hamas terrorists this entire time? I have said several times I don't condone Hamas' actions. .[/QUOTE] So why do you compare them to Allied forces during WWII, and play down the fact that their goal is Israeli genocide?

As the occupying force, the IDF has an obligation to protect the civilians of Gaza. By bombing them, they are breaking this obligation. Israel has said before that Hamas terrorists are forcing civilians to stay inside those houses. While Hamas is violating international humanitarian law, Israel is breaking it too if they fire at it. [editline]9th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52448083]So why do you compare them to Allied forces during WWII, and play down the fact that their goal is Israeli genocide?[/QUOTE] Because the idea that everyone who fights for Hamas wants to perform a genocide is ludicrous. They are fighting their enemy. A country that has taken their lands and treated them badly. You're trying to go for so many little petty arguments, it's almost hard to see where you're going with this. Nitpicking at every word. I understand you're very biased, it's normal. You grew up in Israel (at least I think you said so) so it makes sense you're indoctrinated.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52448070]Has it ever occurred in your mind that I have been calling Hamas terrorists this entire time? I have said several times I don't condone Hamas' actions. [editline]9th July 2017[/editline] Palestinians can't [B]FREELY[/B] leave the Gaza strip. Only in "exceptional humanitarian"cases are they allowed to travel via the Erez or Rafah border crossing. As far as I know, the Rafah border crossing is permanently closed. Irrelevant. Hamas will fire on IDF if they see them, and the IDF will fire on Hamas. I am talking about the fact that they can legally enter the Gaza strip with armed forces. We went over this already. It doesn't fit your definition of occupation, it does fit the UN's and practically every human rights organization's definition. That's not what I said. I said the Jerusalem post seems less trustworthy than a thinktank researching the Middle East for 30 years. Any media is less trustworthy than a research program. [editline]9th July 2017[/editline] Israel loosened it's grip on Gaza by allowing a bit more supplies to enter. They've still got the noose tight though.[/QUOTE] Rafah crossing belongs to Egypt. Israel now has to account for Egypt as well? The IDF can legally enter the Gaza strip only when Hamas starts shit and Israel declares war. Definition of occupation: [QUOTE]Article 42 of The Hague Regulations of 1907 defines occupation as follows: "Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army. The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised."[/QUOTE] Tell me how this is happening now in Gaza? The poll numbers come from the Jerusalem Media & Communication Centre, a [I]Palestinian[/I] NGO There's really no way that both these polls make sense with each other considering that only a year passed between them so idk. [editline]8th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=joost1120;52448086] Because the idea that everyone who fights for Hamas wants to perform a genocide is ludicrous. They are fighting their enemy. A country that has taken their lands and treated them badly. You're trying to go for so many little petty arguments, it's almost hard to see where you're going with this. Nitpicking at every word. I understand you're very biased, it's normal. You grew up in Israel (at least I think you said so) so it makes sense you're indoctrinated.[/QUOTE] People who fight for Hamas do it for the job and to get paid in a place where jobs almost don't exist. Most members of the Al-Qassam Brigades likely prioritize supporting their families over some overarching goal of "freeing Palestine". Also, don't call people that disagree with you "indoctrinated", it's pretentious as fuck. The people arguing with you here actually know what's going on while you're sitting in the netherlands pretending that you know what's happening a few thousand miles away.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52448086]As the occupying force, the IDF has an obligation to protect the civilians of Gaza. By bombing them, they are breaking this obligation. Israel has said before that Hamas terrorists are forcing civilians to stay inside those houses. While Hamas is violating international humanitarian law, Israel is breaking it too if they fire at it.[/quote] Were this true, Israel would be under obligation to enter the Gaza strip with a full military force to completely rid it of the Hamas. [QUOTE=joost1120;52448086] Because the idea that everyone who fights for Hamas wants to perform a genocide is ludicrous. They are fighting their enemy. A country that has taken their lands and treated them badly. You're trying to go for so many little petty arguments, it's almost hard to see where you're going with this. Nitpicking at every word. I understand you're very biased, it's normal. You grew up in Israel (at least I think you said so) so it makes sense you're indoctrinated.[/QUOTE] I'm not from Israel and I'm not biased. I just don't support terrorist groups or give them much sympathy to their cause, especially when it involves genocide. But thanks for belittling me for not supporting or sympathizing with terroristd hell bent on genocide. I'm glad we're able to remain civil despite our difference in opinion. I'm sympathetic to the Palestinian people and the people of Gaza, but not to any member of Hamas. I'll give you the point that its possible that not every member of Hamas wants to see Israel destroyed. But it doesn't matter. Not every German in Germany wanted the jews, and other dissidents, to be slaughtered. But the people in power did and a good chunk of its population and military did too. Because of that, up to 25 million persons perished in just a few years. The difference between the Hamas and the Nazis is that the Germans who joined or were conscripted didn't know of the genocide or intention of the genocide until post war. They were told the jews were being deported or sent to slave labor. Not very humanitarian but its not genocide. The Hamas was founded on the ideals of Israeli genocide and theyre very public with those ideals. Everyone who joins knows fully of the Hamas intentions and what their final goals are. Even if theyre not fighting for that, you shouldn't give them a free pass. Supporting a group like that because you agree with their more tame ideals isnt just dumb, its dangerous.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52448097]Rafah crossing belongs to Egypt. Israel now has to account for Egypt as well? The IDF can legally enter the Gaza strip only when Hamas starts shit and Israel declares war. Definition of occupation: Tell me how this is happening now in Gaza? The poll numbers come from the Jerusalem Media & Communication Centre, a [I]Palestinian[/I] NGO There's really no way that both these polls make sense with each other considering that only a year passed between them so idk. [editline]8th July 2017[/editline] People who fight for Hamas do it for the job and to get paid in a place where jobs almost don't exist. Most members of the Al-Qassam Brigades likely prioritize supporting their families over some overarching goal of "freeing Palestine". Also, don't call people that disagree with you "indoctrinated", it's pretentious as fuck. The people arguing with you here actually know what's going on while you're sitting in the netherlands pretending that you know what's happening a few thousand miles away.[/QUOTE] I was talking about the two ways in and out of Gaza. Rafah, which belongs to Egypt is closed. No need to get all hostile over it. The IDF can legally enter the Gaza strip whenever they want, they are the occupying force. Seems like you haven't been paying attention. Israel exercises effective control and authority over the Gaza strip. They control the airspace, the only trade routes and the only crossing in and out of Gaza. Military drones routinely patrol over Gaza. Israel still maintains a blockade. [URL="http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/01/israel-spraying-toxins-palestinian-crops-gaza-160114063046813.html"]They even spray herbicides over farmlands to prevent local farmers from raising crops (among other sabotages), forcing them to import food from Israel.[/URL] It is an occupying force. Period. I don't like calling people indoctrinated, but when you refuse to even look at the facts and just brush it all off as "terrorist speak" or whatever you think, it sort of fits the occasion. You think you know what's going on, yet you don't even know about the restrictions placed on the people of the Gaza strip.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52448174]I was talking about the two ways in and out of Gaza. Rafah, which belongs to Egypt is closed. No need to get all hostile over it. The IDF can legally enter the Gaza strip whenever they want, they are the occupying force. Seems like you haven't been paying attention. Israel exercises effective control and authority over the Gaza strip. They control the airspace, the only trade routes and the only crossing in and out of Gaza. Military drones routinely patrol over Gaza. Israel still maintains a blockade. [URL="http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/01/israel-spraying-toxins-palestinian-crops-gaza-160114063046813.html"]They even spray herbicides over farmlands to prevent local farmers from raising crops (among other sabotages), forcing them to import food from Israel.[/URL] It is an occupying force. Period. I don't like calling people indoctrinated, but when you refuse to even look at the facts and just brush it all off as "terrorist speak" or whatever you think, it sort of fits the occasion. You think you know what's going on, yet you don't even know about the restrictions placed on the people of the Gaza strip.[/QUOTE] I literally just listed a restriction. Using Qatari state news as a source is honestly retarded considering that Qatar funded Hamas and put up the leaders of Hamas in luxury hotel at the time this article was written. It explicitly states that an occupation is when a military force has authority over people in a disputed area and can carry it out. Is Hamas now a secret IDF branch? It's clearly a blockade only. I'm not brushing off any facts, I've been correcting you on how things in Gaza and Israel really work for around 3 or 4 pages already.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52448174] I don't like calling people indoctrinated, but when you refuse to even look at the facts and just brush it all off as "terrorist speak" or whatever you think, it sort of fits the occasion. You think you know what's going on, yet you don't even know about the restrictions placed on the people of the Gaza strip.[/QUOTE] I wonder who is more a trustable source? Some random Hamas apologist from europe vs a guy who lived in the region all of his life/a soldier who is currently serving in these exact conflict zones. Please enlighten me about the experience you have on the conflict.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52447963]Again, what are the alternatives? [/QUOTE] Improve and expand Iron Dome (and domestic security/intelligence/policing)? The more rocket attacks it stops completely, the less necessary it becomes to retaliate, the less support the ones firing them receive. If Israel can focus on preventing or negating Hamas' terrorist attacks, without firing a shot toward Gaza, such attacks would quickly become unpopular. If you're one of the bloodthirsties, why would you back people who aren't making a dent? It's one thing for Hamas' leaders to recognise they'll never defeat Israel, but not being able to kill a single person inside its borders? Ofc, they'd adapt and use suicide bombers and such at a higher frequency - but since in this idealistic scenario, Israel isn't dropping a bomb on Gaza for every rocket intercepted by Iron Dome, they are able to focus more funding in the direction of defeating such attacks. Not stirring shit with the settlements and the arseholes you always seem to put in them would be a good next step. The less people you displace, the less you shoot for throwing rocks - in protest or not - the less of them will hate your guts. Third is to treat the Palestinians in the West Bank right instead of stealing their solar panels. [editline]9th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=RzDat;52448219] a guy who lived in the region all of his life/a soldier who is currently serving in these exact conflict zones.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=joost1120;52448174] Indoctrinated[/QUOTE] Being in that situation denies you the perspective outsiders have of the situation - that does go both ways. As with most things the truth is halfway between

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52448199]I literally just listed a restriction. Using Qatari state news as a source is honestly retarded considering that Qatar funded Hamas and put up the leaders of Hamas in luxury hotel at the time this article was written. It explicitly states that an occupation is when a military force has authority over people in a disputed area and can carry it out. Is Hamas now a secret IDF branch? It's clearly a blockade only. I'm not brushing off any facts, I've been correcting you on how things in Gaza and Israel really work for around 3 or 4 pages already.[/QUOTE] Al Jazeera is one of countless sources. Whether you like them or not, they are a highly factual news source. Israel has authority over the people of Gaza. Whether they have soldiers positioned inside it doesn't matter. They have military presence in the form of drones, spies and air control. Apart from the military control they also control the only entrance and exit, both for people and supplies. And if you want to stick to the pure definition of Occupation, you're out of luck. There is no single clear definition of the term Occupation that describe all occupations. [URL="https://web.law.columbia.edu/sites/default/files/microsites/gender-sexuality/Roberts%20What%20is%20Military%20Occupation.pdf"]There's a reason why there's a 57 page file on it.[/URL] I'll help you since you can't read so well: [QUOTE]There are, of course, other kinds of occupation, and even other phases and types of belligerent occupation. However, the central body of international law governing occupation problems did not grow up around them; the special rules applying to them are invariably incomplete and controversial, and depend usually on deductions from and modifications of Section III [of the Hague Regulations]; most of them, it will appear, have not been hitherto studied and properly analyzed.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=joost1120;52448174] I don't like calling people indoctrinated, but when you refuse to even look at the facts and just brush it all off as "terrorist speak" or whatever you think, it sort of fits the occasion. You think you know what's going on, yet you don't even know about the restrictions placed on the people of the Gaza strip.[/QUOTE] This is coming from the guy that compared a terrorist group which was formed with the intention of genocide to Allied soldiers during WWII, and writes off their speeches calling for genocide as just talk. Yea ok dood. Nobody here is ignoring facts aside from you. We all recognize that Israel is doing shitty things to the people of Gaza. What youre not getting is that some of those things are completely necessary for Israel to stop terrorist attacks on itself. Its not pretty but its the reality of warfare. I can assure you that few if any people who are responsible for dropping the bombs take pleasure in destroying people's homes. But its necessary to stop rockets being shot into Israel. You've been writing the Hamas off as being tragic heroes and have cited nothing to prove this. You've even degraded to the point of just insulting people.

[QUOTE=Morbo!!!;52448250]Improve and expand Iron Dome (and domestic security/intelligence/policing)? The more rocket attacks it stops completely, the less necessary it becomes to retaliate, the less support the ones firing them receive. If Israel can focus on preventing or negating Hamas' terrorist attacks, without firing a shot toward Gaza, such attacks would quickly become unpopular. If you're one of the bloodthirsties, why would you back people who aren't making a dent? It's one thing for Hamas' leaders to recognise they'll never defeat Israel, but not being able to kill a single person inside its borders? Ofc, they'd adapt and use suicide bombers and such at a higher frequency - but since in this idealistic scenario, Israel isn't dropping a bomb on Gaza for every rocket intercepted by Iron Dome, they are able to focus more funding in the direction of defeating such attacks. [/QUOTE] Iron Dome costs like 100k per interception, one of Hamas's rockets costs like 500 dollars. Hamas is doing damage to Israel even if nothing hits a civilian area. The reason why people support Hamas is because of their charity work and because they're an Islamic government that promises to destroy Israel. Also, in the Middle East, people respect strength. If Israel doesn't strike back when a rocket is launched at Israel, people in Hamas will think that Israel is too weak to respond and will just keep on going. Also, Hamas doesn't need the support of the civilians in Gaza. If they lose support, they can crush any rebellion with the help of Islamic Jihad. Hamas cannot do suicide bombing attacks in Gaza or near Gaza. In the west bank is a bit of a different story.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52448280]This is coming from the guy that compared a terrorist group which was formed with the intention of genocide to Allied soldiers during WWII, and writes off their speeches calling for genocide as just talk. Yea ok dood. Nobody here is ignoring facts aside from you. We all recognize that Israel is doing shitty things to the people of Gaza. What youre not getting is that some of those things are completely necessary for Israel to stop terrorist attacks on itself. Its not pretty but its the reality of warfare. I can assure you that few if any people who are responsible for dropping the bombs take pleasure in destroying people's homes. But its necessary to stop rockets being shot into Israel. You've been writing the Hamas off as being tragic heroes and have cited nothing to prove this. You've even degraded to the point of just insulting people.[/QUOTE] Can you please stop trying to act like such a huge dick? I didn't compare a terrorist group to Allied soldiers. I compared soldiers to soldiers. You're making yourself look like such an idiot right now. You're brushing away everything I've said because I compared two soldiers boasting about killing their enemies. You keep saying these idiotic things, without anything to back it up. [QUOTE]You've been writing the Hamas off as being tragic heroes and have cited nothing to prove this. You've even degraded to the point of just insulting people. [/QUOTE] No, I haven't. If you'd read for once, you'll notice that I have been calling them terrorists this entire time. I said I don't agree with their ways. You're pulling this all out of your ass just so you can feel better about yourself. I have degraded myself to the point of just insulting people? Can you please stop this? It wasn't until you called me delusional that I've started adding a few more passive aggressive tones to my posts. Your entire post here seems to be just some sort of flamebait. Keep this civilized. [editline]9th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Svinnik;52448305]Iron Dome costs like 100k per interception, one of Hamas's rockets costs like 500 dollars. Hamas is doing damage to Israel even if nothing hits a civilian area. The reason why people support Hamas is because of their charity work and because they're an Islamic government that promises to destroy Israel. Also, in the Middle East, people respect strength. If Israel doesn't strike back when a rocket is launched at Israel, people in Hamas will think that Israel is too weak to respond and will just keep on going. Also, Hamas doesn't need the support of the civilians in Gaza. If they lose support, they can crush any rebellion with the help of Islamic Jihad. Hamas cannot do suicide bombing attacks in Gaza or near Gaza. In the west bank is a bit of a different story.[/QUOTE] The Iron Dome costs 20k per interception. The Iron Beam project should bring the cost of destroying mortars and missiles down by a significant margin.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52448279]Al Jazeera is one of countless sources. Whether you like them or not, they are a highly factual news source. Israel has authority over the people of Gaza. Whether they have soldiers positioned inside it doesn't matter. They have military presence in the form of drones, spies and air control. Apart from the military control they also control the only entrance and exit, both for people and supplies. And if you want to stick to the pure definition of Occupation, you're out of luck. There is no single clear definition of the term Occupation that describe all occupations. [URL="https://web.law.columbia.edu/sites/default/files/microsites/gender-sexuality/Roberts%20What%20is%20Military%20Occupation.pdf"]There's a reason why there's a 57 page file on it.[/URL] I'll help you since you can't read so well:[/QUOTE] What's with the insults? Please help the stupid Israeli understand the complex words in this excerpt, I'm too indoctrinated to understand anything that the IDF doesn't feed to me. According to your logic, the US now occupies Pakistan, the KSA, Cuba, and many other countries because the US operates drones in these countries, has spies in these countries, and has air control in parts of these countries. [editline]8th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=joost1120;52448312]Can you please stop trying to act like such a huge dick? I didn't compare a terrorist group to Allied soldiers. I compared soldiers to soldiers. You're making yourself look like such an idiot right now. You're brushing away everything I've said because I compared two soldiers boasting about killing their enemies. You keep saying these idiotic things, without anything to back it up. No, I haven't. If you'd read for once, you'll notice that I have been calling them terrorists this entire time. I said I don't agree with their ways. You're pulling this all out of your ass just so you can feel better about yourself. I have degraded myself to the point of just insulting people? Can you please stop this? It wasn't until you called me delusional that I've started adding a few more passive aggressive tones to my posts. Your entire post here seems to be just some sort of flamebait. Keep this civilized. [editline]9th July 2017[/editline] The Iron Dome costs 20k per interception. The Iron Beam project should bring the cost of destroying mortars and missiles down by a significant margin.[/QUOTE] Wikipedia says in one place that a tamir interceptor costs 100k in one place and 20k-50k in another place. 20k-50k makes more sense. Iron Beam might reduce costs but it's still in development and isnt ready for deployment

[QUOTE=joost1120;52448312]Can you please stop trying to act like such a huge dick? I didn't compare a terrorist group to Allied soldiers. I compared soldiers to soldiers. [/quote] No, you compared soldiers in a terrorist regime to Allied soldiers fighting Nazi oppression. This is why I keep pointing this out to you. The comparison is just awful and you refuse to recognize that. The fact that you can't realize how silly that comparison is just baffles me. Also, me proving you wrong and calling you out on your bullshit is not being a dick. [QUOTE=joost1120;52448312] You're making yourself look like such an idiot right now. You're brushing away everything I've said because I compared two soldiers boasting about killing their enemies. You keep saying these idiotic things, without anything to back it up. [/quote] I'll ask again, cite your shit. What do I have to cite? Do you need me to go link you to the Hamas' and Alqassam websites or link you to youtube speeches and propaganda music of the Hamas? [QUOTE=joost1120;52448312] No, I haven't. If you'd read for once, you'll notice that I have been calling them terrorists this entire time. I said I don't agree with their ways. You're pulling this all out of your ass just so you can feel better about yourself. I have degraded myself to the point of just insulting people? Can you please stop this? It wasn't until you called me delusional that I've started adding a few more passive aggressive tones to my posts. Your entire post here seems to be just some sort of flamebait. Keep this civilized.[/QUOTE] You compared Allied soldiers to terrorists, and you're downplaying terrorist actions as just soldiers fighting for freedom. I called you delusional because you're coming off as delusional. I'm going to back out of this debate. I'm just going to write you off as stuborn and give up. I can't make any headway with a person who just insults you for having a different opinion and plays down a group thats hell bent on genocide.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52448337]What's with the insults? Please help the stupid Israeli understand the complex words in this excerpt, I'm too indoctrinated to understand anything that the IDF doesn't feed to me. According to your logic, the US now occupies Pakistan, the KSA, Cuba, and many other countries because the US operates drones in these countries, has spies in these countries, and has air control in parts of these countries.[/QUOTE] Ah, I completely forgot the US controls the population register for Pakistan. How could I forget. Or how they maintain a blockade on the entire country, limiting both people and supplies. Or how there's a 300 meter buffer zone around the entire country, where soldiers are allowed to shoot you. Or the fact that the Oslo I Accord authorizes the US specifically to control the airspace and territorial waters around Pakistan. Because that's the case with Israel and Gaza. But it doesn't matter whether you think Israel occupies Gaza or not. It really doesn't. What matters is that Amnesty International, the World Health Organization, Oxfam, the International Committee of the Red Cross, The United Nations, the United Nations General Assembly, the UN Fact Finding Mission to Gaza, international human rights organizations, US government websites, the UK Foreign and Commonwealth Office and a significant number of legal commentators consider the Gaza strip to still be occupied by Israel. [editline]9th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52448362]No, you compared soldiers in a terrorist regime to Allied soldiers fighting Nazi oppression. This is why I keep pointing this out to you. The comparison is just awful and you refuse to recognize that. The fact that you can't realize how silly that comparison is just baffles me. Also, me proving you wrong and calling you out on your bullshit is not being a dick. I'll ask again, cite your shit. What do I have to cite? Do you need me to go link you to the Hamas' and Alqassam websites or link you to youtube speeches and propaganda music of the Hamas? You compared Allied soldiers to terrorists, and you're downplaying terrorist actions as just soldiers fighting for freedom. I called you delusional because you're coming off as delusional. I'm going to back out of this debate. I'm just going to write you off as stuborn and give up. I can't make any headway with a person who just insults you for having a different opinion and plays down a group thats hell bent on genocide.[/QUOTE] "I prove you wrong because I say so" Your last few posts have only been going on about Allied soldiers. Now you're taking your leave because you really don't have anything to bring up. You flat out deny Israel is occupying the Gaza strip and try to redirect me to other points. Israel is obligated to protect Gaza's civilians. Oh, and depending on the type of terrorist, yes, they absolutely are fighting for their freedom. Irish terrorists during the Troubles fought for their freedom, to keep Ireland as an independent republic.