[QUOTE=Swazi Spring;38422049][url=http://townhall.com/columnists/johnhawkins/2012/09/18/the_25_most_obnoxious_quotes_from_barack_obama/page/full/]#21[/url]
Though to be fair, I personally don't think he wants the Constitution to apply, ever, to anyone; especially not when it comes to limiting his power.[/QUOTE]
Yeah that's totally reasonable. He [I]hates[/I] the constitution with a burning rage!
[QUOTE=Swazi Spring;38422049][url=http://townhall.com/columnists/johnhawkins/2012/09/18/the_25_most_obnoxious_quotes_from_barack_obama/page/full/]#21[/url]
Though to be fair, I personally don't think he wants the Constitution to apply, ever, to anyone; especially not when it comes to limiting his power.[/QUOTE]
What do you think about prohibition? From a constitutional view point, since it used to be wrote into the damned thing.
[QUOTE=Megafan;38422152]Yeah that's totally reasonable. He [I]hates[/I] the constitution with a burning rage![/QUOTE]
Evidently, seeing as how he supports gun control, the indefinite detainment of American citizens without trial, the extrajudicial killing of American citizens, warrant-less surveillance of American citizens, requiring American citizens to buy products against their will, etc.
[QUOTE=Swazi Spring;38422049][url=http://townhall.com/columnists/johnhawkins/2012/09/18/the_25_most_obnoxious_quotes_from_barack_obama/page/full/]#21[/url]
Though to be fair, I personally don't think he wants the Constitution to apply, ever, to anyone; especially not when it comes to limiting his power.[/QUOTE]
So he wants to cut gun-crime in inner-city areas, so what?
Did anybody else read through the quotes on that linked page and not really see anything wrong with most of them?
[QUOTE=Gordy H.;38422116]I think the majority of Americans see self preservation as a 'fundamental natural right', and by extension the right to own firearms. What the rest of the world thinks is irrelevant, it's not their issue.[/QUOTE]
firearms don't equate self preservation.
And the statistics point to the opposite effect.
Just look at your homicide rate.
The top ten countries with the highest homicide rate by a significant lead are all awash with firearms.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;38422409]correlation =/= causation[/QUOTE]
[B]Then why are you not being preserved by your firearms.[/B]
It is a clear statement he made that firearms = safety.
Where? When? How? The fact that there is no correlation nor causation just proves my point that there is no positive influence in personal safety.
[QUOTE=Swazi Spring;38422282]Evidently, seeing as how he supports gun control, [B]the indefinite detainment of American citizens without trial, the extrajudicial killing of American citizens, warrant-less surveillance of American citizens[/B], requiring American citizens to buy products against their will, etc.[/QUOTE]
those are bipartisan policies :v:
[QUOTE=NoDachi;38422374]firearms don't equate self preservation.
And the statistics point the the opposite effect.
Just look at your homicide rate.[/QUOTE]
Yes, they do. Our natural rights stem from the rights to life, liberty, and property. The right to bear arms is an extension of the right to life.
Again, do your research before making stupid statements. Why don't you actually look at European crime statistics for a minute, or even just American crime statistics. Europe has always had a low crime rate, in fact, prior to implementing gun control, European countries had far-lower crimes.
Take for instance the UK gun bans in 1968 and 1997. Gun control increased violent crime drastically, and after over half a century, violent crime rates continue to rise. The same thing has happened everywhere gun control has been implemented, both in America and in other countries. There is absolutely ZERO evidence that shows that gun rights and/or guns cause crime; all of the evidence points to the exact opposite (gun control increases crime).
I agree Richyz, correlation only who that there might be a connection but it is not the cause.
Towns with more churches have more murders than town with a small amount of churches. Churches to do not cause the murders. Towns who have more churches are larger and are more populated, so there are simply more murders. So correlation does not equal causation.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;38422374]firearms don't equate self preservation.
And the statistics point the the opposite effect.
Just look at your homicide rate.[/QUOTE]
Firearms are tools for self preservation.
Yes, we have a higher homicide rate. But why does that mean that people who own firearms simply for sport or self defense should be punished? People who legally hold firearms are not the issue, criminals who illegally obtain them are.
[QUOTE=Swazi Spring;38422443]Take for instance the UK gun bans in 1967 and 1997. Gun control increased violent crime drastically, and after over half a century, violent crime rates continue to rise. The same thing has happened everywhere gun control has been implemented, both in America and in other countries. There is absolutely ZERO evidence that shows that gun rights and/or guns cause crime; all of the evidence points to the exact opposite (gun control increases crime).[/QUOTE]
[img]http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44840000/gif/_44840745_all_violent_crime_466.gif[/img]
stop getting your information from rightwing websites that just bullshit you into their idiocy.
What you believe is objectively false.
[img]http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44009000/gif/_44009033_trends_in_vio_gra416.gif[/img]
[QUOTE=NoDachi;38422425][B]Then why are you not being preserved by your firearms.[/B]
It is a clear statement he made that firearms = safety.
Where? When? How? The fact that there is no correlation nor causation just proves my point that there is no positive influence in personal safety.[/QUOTE]
Concealed carry has been hailed as a success everywhere it's been implemented, even foreign countries have begun implementing concealed carry, including at least one European country (the Czech Republic). The European countries that have the lowest violent crime rates are those with loose gun laws and/or high ownership rates. Also, in the US, states that have implemented concealed carry have far lower violent crime rates than those that haven't and studies show that concealed carry (and open carry) have lowered crime rates.
[editline]12th November 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=NoDachi;38422482][img]http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44840000/gif/_44840745_all_violent_crime_466.gif[/img]
stop getting your information from rightwing websites that just bullshit you into their idiocy.
What you believe is objectively false.
[img]http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44009000/gif/_44009033_trends_in_vio_gra416.gif[/img][/QUOTE]
Official crime statistics from the Home Office, a cabinet-level department of the British government, show otherwise.
[img]http://www.justfacts.com/images/guncontrol/england.png[/img]
Sources: [url]http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs10/hosb0110.pdf[/url] & [url]http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp[/url]
[QUOTE=Swazi Spring;38422501]Concealed carry has been hailed as a success everywhere it's been implemented, even foreign countries have begun implementing concealed carry, including at least one European country (the Czech Republic). [B]The European countries that have the lowest violent crime rates are those with loose gun laws and/or high ownership rates. [/B]Also, in the US, states that have implemented concealed carry have far lower violent crime rates than those that haven't and studies show that concealed carry (and open carry) have lowered crime rates.[/QUOTE]
source please
[editline]12th November 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Swazi Spring;38422501]Concealed carry has been hailed as a success everywhere it's been implemented, even foreign countries have begun implementing concealed carry, including at least one European country (the Czech Republic). The European countries that have the lowest violent crime rates are those with loose gun laws and/or high ownership rates. Also, in the US, states that have implemented concealed carry have far lower violent crime rates than those that haven't and studies show that concealed carry (and open carry) have lowered crime rates.
[editline]12th November 2012[/editline]
Official crime statistics from the Home Office, a cabinet-level department of the British government, show otherwise.
[IMG]http://www.justfacts.com/images/guncontrol/england.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
those graphs NoDa posted are sourced to the home office, what?
I didn't know the British government was a right-wing website.
[QUOTE=trotskygrad;38422556]source please
[editline]12th November 2012[/editline]
those graphs are sourced to the home office, what?[/QUOTE]
Your graphs showed non-fatal violent crime, I believe. His shows homicides.
[QUOTE=Swazi Spring;38422501]Official crime statistics from the Home Office, a cabinet-level department of the British government, show otherwise.
[img]http://www.justfacts.com/images/guncontrol/england.png[/img]
Sources: [url]http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110218135832/http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs10/hosb0110.pdf[/url] & [url]http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp[/url][/QUOTE]
Justfacts.com lol
you do realise what the British Crime Survey is right?
[editline]12th November 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Swazi Spring;38422568]I didn't know the British government was a right-wing website.[/QUOTE]
But your graph is flawed. It only shows Firearm [B]offences[/B].
Which is obvious, if you ban something, there are going to be more offences. The justfacts.com graph is deliberately (or stupidly miss-labled) If you actually read the first report where that graph has been scrapped from, you would realise this.
Yet you argued that British became more violent and dangerous as a result. Which is false.
You're just a shit who doesn't know how to use statistics.
[editline]12th November 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=trotskygrad;38422556]source please
[editline]12th November 2012[/editline]
those graphs NoDa posted are sourced to the home office, what?[/QUOTE]
BBC / British Crime Survey, the official survey where the Home Office gets it's statistics from.
[QUOTE=Swazi Spring;38422443]Yes, they do. Our natural rights stem from the rights to life, liberty, and property. The right to bear arms is an extension of the right to life.[/QUOTE]
no it isnt
the right to life is separate from the privilege to bear arms
plus if you owned a gun and a criminal owned a gun, you aren't actually safer than if you and the criminal didn't own a gun
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38422644]no it isnt
the right to life is separate from the privilege to bear arms
plus if you owned a gun and a criminal owned a gun, you aren't actually safer than if you and the criminal didn't own a gun[/QUOTE]
Except a criminal is going to own a gun regardless of their legality if they need or want one. Criminals aren't known for obeying laws.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;38422577]
BBC / British Crime Survey, the official survey where the Home Office gets it's statistics from.[/QUOTE]
was asking Swazi to source his europe stuff, not you.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;38422577]But your graph is flawed. It only shows Firearm [B]offences[/B].
Which is obvious, if you ban something, there are going to be more offences.
Yet you argued that British became more violent and dangerous as a result. Which is false.[/quote]
Look at the statistics and the graph again, it is clearly labeled "Homicides Reported By Police in England & Wales." In what universe does that get twisted into "Firearm Offenses."
[QUOTE=NoDachi;38422577]You're just a shit who doesn't know how to use statistics.[/QUOTE]
Here I was thinking we could have a rational and civilized discussion, but nope, let's just ignore the facts and focus on name-calling.
You cannot generalize criminals like that, not everyone has a gun.
Most criminials where I come from are really poor or a bunch of people that are unorganized, they cannot afford a gun or anything similiar.
[QUOTE=Gordy H.;38422663]Except a criminal is going to own a gun regardless of their legality if they need or want one. Criminals aren't known for obeying laws.[/QUOTE]
Fun fact: Most gun related deaths are not committed by ~known criminals~.
Also another fun fact: A gun in the home kills more owners or family members than intruders or ~criminals~
[QUOTE=Gordy H.;38422663]Except a criminal is going to own a gun regardless of their legality if they need or want one. Criminals aren't known for obeying laws.[/QUOTE]
you don't actually get my point.
You wouldn't be safer if you owned a firearm and the criminal did as well.
[QUOTE=trotskygrad;38422673]was asking Swazi to source his europe stuff, not you.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country[/url]
And as for the Czech Republic adopting concealed carry: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_Czech_Republic#Carrying_a_concealed_weapon[/url]
[QUOTE=Swazi Spring;38422698][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country[/url]
And as for the Czech Republic adopting concealed carry: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_Czech_Republic#Carrying_a_concealed_weapon[/url][/QUOTE]
serbia isn't exactly known for low crime, what are you smoking
that correlation is nonexistent.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;38422695]Fun fact: Most gun related deaths are not committed by ~known criminals~.
[b]Also another fun fact: A gun in the home kills more owners or family members than intruders or ~criminals~[/b][/QUOTE]
yeah uh, gonna need some statistics on that.
[QUOTE=Swazi Spring;38422675]Apparently you are incapable of reading. Look at the statistics and the graph again, it is clearly labeled "Homicides Reported By Police in England & Wales." In what universe does that get twisted into "Firearm Offenses."[/QUOTE]
That is exactly my point. The graph you chose from 'justfacts.com' is the same graph from that report you posted by the Government.
Except in the Government report it is [I]offences[/I], in your justfacts.com it is dramatically called homicides.
Can we just move along from this point about how Britain became a more dangerous place after the ban because we all know it isn't true?
[QUOTE=junker|154;38422689]You cannot generalize criminals like that, not everyone has a gun.
Most criminials where I come from are really poor or a bunch of people that are unorganized, they cannot afford a gun or anything similiar.[/QUOTE]
If you don't mind me asking, where do you live? If you live in the U.S., you should know that we have a serious issue with major, nationwide gangs and massive drug cartels in the border states. These groups are neither poor or disorganized.
[QUOTE=Swazi Spring;38422698][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country[/url]
And as for the Czech Republic adopting concealed carry: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_Czech_Republic#Carrying_a_concealed_weapon[/url][/QUOTE]
[quote]Since the Czech Republic is relatively a safe country, most people agree that they do not feel the need to permanently carry a gun for protection. Considering the number of the E category licenses there are about 200 000 people who could potentially carry a firearm however it is not clear how many of them regularly do so.[/quote]
well done
[QUOTE=Gordy H.;38422739]If you don't mind me asking, where do you live? If you live in the U.S., you should know that we have a serious issue with major, nationwide gangs and massive drug cartels in the border states. These groups are neither poor or disorganized.[/QUOTE]
he lives in germany afaik
and yes the US has way more organized crime.
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