[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];33489448']Even after we almost went into armed conflict a few times in 2006-2008 over this, and Russia has stated they're wiling to bomb the sites, and all they want is a legally binding contract...
By the way, the proposed shield is the red line:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/toaDi.png[/img]
Blue is the nations it's protecting
Orange is the nations its supposedly protecting from
Red is the nations capable of hitting Europe with a missile.
Tell me Russia doesn't have means for concern.[/QUOTE]
Haha, like Finland would be protected
To all people who hate on Americans,
Don't hate us, hate our shitty ass government which we hate too.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];33489448']Even after we almost went into armed conflict a few times in 2006-2008 over this, and Russia has stated they're wiling to bomb the sites, and all they want is a legally binding contract...
By the way, the proposed shield is the red line:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/toaDi.png[/img]
Blue is the nations it's protecting
Orange is the nations its supposedly protecting from
Red is the nations capable of hitting Europe with a missile.[/quote]
Where exactly did you get that map from? Because whoever made it is incredibly uninformed (or perhaps it's just old and outdated).
First off, there are a bunch of NATO countries missing from that map that are supposed to be protected by the shield (the Balkans is almost completely naked, FFS; Turkey, Estonia, Denmark, Lithuania, and Latvia, amongst a few others, aren't even included).
[url]http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/nato_countries.htm[/url]
Second, Iran, a priority nation this shield is supposed to protect, is more than capable of hitting mainland Europe (nevermind member nations of NATO situated on the continent) with a missile. Take your pick from their long-range arsenal: X-55s, Ashuras, Sejjils, Shababs, Simorghs.
[url]http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iran/missile.htm[/url]
Third, why are some nations listed on there considered aggressive/threatening nations that Europe must be protected from? Iraq's an ally of the United States since Hussein was toppled and diplomatic friend of NATO, Kuwait has been since our intervention during the First Gulf War, Saudi Arabia's attitude is friendly and we do a great deal of business together, the United Arab Emirates and United States have been trade partners for 40 years now, and Oman is a nation which we've had close trade and diplomatic ties with since 1790.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];33489448']Tell me Russia doesn't have means for concern.[/QUOTE]
What exactly is there for them to be concerned about? The shield's only got defensive weapons, not offensive ones.
If anyone's got reason to be concerned, it's the whole bloody rest of us. Medvedev's threatened to attack Poland, Romania, Spain, and Turkey with missiles "should the United States fail to acknowledge the concerns of Russian defense officials". And then there's of course the week-old news about him threatening to deploy nuclear weapons to the scene.
With that said and done, it's pretty obvious, however, that nothing is going happen. Nobody wants to enter a major war. This is just an attempt to get support and votes of the nationalists by Medvedev. Recall that their parliamentary polls are coming up before long.
[QUOTE=doonbugie2;33488244]America can suck a dick.[/QUOTE]
I'm an American and I approve this message.
[QUOTE=Zezibesh;33489963]Haha, like Finland would be protected[/QUOTE]
I just thought the same thing.
If shit goes down, I'm siding with russia.
[QUOTE=Stopper;33489116]Of course they don't. Would you trust your neighbour if he aimed a shotgun at your house saying that he is just protecting himself from thieves?[/QUOTE]
That's a terrible analogy. A better one your neighbors put up a fence around their collective property and you getting pissy about it.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;33490383]lol
you don't really know what MAD is do you and how it works[/QUOTE]
Elaborate.
The missile shield has very little to do with MAD, as it does not complement any nuclear weapons whatsoever, just anti-ballistic missiles.
this all just seems silly to me, it's like the unstoppable object meets the immoveable object (just in country form, but maybe that's a bad example.) Russia annoyed by the US.
anyway, couldn't they (if they wanted to) send a missle the.. other way round? or would it not reach that far?
Russia should build their own missile shield and stick it in Cuba
[QUOTE=Medevilae;33490700]Haven't you ever played DEFCON? You gotta have the missile shield right smack on the border of the country you want to defend, or the ICBMs get there before you can destroy them.[/QUOTE]
that comment is lost on me because no, i haven't :geno:
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;33490710]Russia should build their own missile shield and stick it in Cuba[/QUOTE]
Relevant:
[url]http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/349/c/5/cold_war__simple_version_by_angusmcleod-d34xw7j.jpg[/url]
Russia should build more nukes and jam them up her own ass.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;33490817]MAD is not restricted to only nuclear weapons.[/quote]
Has been throughout its historical applications. Theoretically, chemical, biological, and radiological weaponry could be employed as well on a national level to ensure security. CBRN WMD's. Anti-ballistic missiles like the ones on this planned shield are not WMD's in any sense of the term. Hence, they really haven't got much to do with the point of MAD: whoever shoots first dies second. They're purely defensive. So I'm still not sure what strong logical connection in your mind you saw between the two.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;33490817]Like someone else said, it's like someone points a shotgun towards you and says that he's hunting birds.[/quote]
Like Mr. Someguy said: [i]That's a terrible analogy. A better one your neighbors put up a fence around their collective property and you getting pissy about it.[/i]
[QUOTE=Marbalo;33490817]It's retarded and suspicious as fuck, even more so when the US repeatedly denies signing papers that can be then used to prove America's at fault if something happens to Russia as a result of this shield.[/quote]
Threatening to attack sovereign nations and start what could be considered a world war involving nuclear weapons is retarded and suspicious as fuck, even more so when you claim to be wanting a peaceful solution to the issue.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;33490817]It's childish, it's unprofessional and certainly raises too many questions.[/QUOTE]
Not half as much as threatening to start a world war and intentionally cause nuclear holocaust in the process.
[QUOTE=Mr.T;33487889]Yeah, where else would they aim it?[/QUOTE]
We are pretty sure Russia recognizes that neither of us can do shit without the other slaughtering us.
However we are less sure about the nations just now developing ICBM tech to deliver nuclear weapons.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;33491080]The entire reason Russia is being hostile now is because YOU refuse to back off AND refuse to negotiate. Telling the other side "it's okay I know what Im doing" is not the way things are fucking done in politics.[/QUOTE]
I don't think Lunchbox of Doom had anything to do with this. I may be wrong though. He might have actually lead the construction of the missile shield.
Quick question
if everyone bombs each other
will the fallout make it to South America?
Just want to make sure :v:
Holy shit this is a surprise. I thought I was going to see an article where the Americans would have an agreement with the Russians or some shit. Well, Medvedev is going to be hella pissed.
Edit:
Obligatory Cold War song.
[video=youtube;fBpyichRWo0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBpyichRWo0[/video]
[QUOTE=Marbalo;33491080]You're talking about the US right?[/quote]
You can read, right? The only nation that's actually threatened to attack anybody in this and made any moves to suggest they'll live up to this is Russia. The United States hasn't even built the goddamn thing yet, and already they're going apeshit- talking about deploying nuclear weapons, attacking sovereign European nations, and ordering radar sites on full alert.
But, again, I suspect it's just Medvedev trying to get the votes and support of the nationalists.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;33491080]Because everything was completely fine up until the US felt the need to get this shield up and all Russia wanted (at the most) was a peaceful negotiation so they could discuss the terms and sign papers and your regular political mumbo jumbo, so that this tiny little disagreement could be resolved quickly and peacefully and everybody came out happy.
The US declined, what possible reason could there be for them to actually decline other than hidden malicious intent towards Russia or its neighbors?[/quote]
That's a gross, dishonest oversimplification of this entire issue. The Russians were originally all for the shield back in 2008. In fact, they wanted to get involved with it and build something similar on their soil, too.
Now, out of the blue, their president is threatening to attack countries in Europe, putting radar sites on alert, and suggesting that nuclear weapons will probably be used by them in the process should they attack, all the while claiming he only ever wanted a peaceful solution to the matter- that would have boiled down to, [b]"The United States and NATO cannot touch Russia, but Russia [i]can[/i] touch the United States and NATO"[/b].
Perhaps that last part is why we declined?
[QUOTE=Marbalo;33491080]The entire reason Russia is being hostile now is because YOU refuse to back off AND refuse to negotiate. Telling the other side "it's okay I know what Im doing" is not the way things are fucking done in politics.[/quote]
Negotiate? Blindly signing an agreement that they put forth saying that they can do whatever the fuck they want to us and our allies but we can't do anything towards them is not negotiating. Negotiating would be putting forth an agreement saying that both sides can not touch one another. Which they never made any effort to do when it was their responsibility in the first place, as the initiating party of this whole affair, to do so.
They started this shit, they're the ones acting belligerent- threatening the entire planet with a world war involving nuclear weapons, and that's that.
But, for the last time, it's probably all just an attempt by Medvedev to get the nationalists on his and his party's side. I seriously doubt anything will happen.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;33491500]He didn't threaten to attack European nations, blast Radar stations, etc out of the blue.[/quote]
Yeah, he kind of did.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;33491500]They said they'd be willing to do it in the WORST CASE SCENARIO, i.e if the US continues to be stubborn and uncooperative.[/quote]
That's a great reason to start a world war and use nuclear weapons in the process, killing millions and millions of people.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;33491500]They said repeatedly that all they really want is a peaceful and reasonable solution first and only resort to more aggressive means as a safety net if something goes wrong.[/quote]
Well, to begin with, but how exactly is starting a world war involving nuclear weapons supposed to act as a safety net for them? Certainly is a more aggressive approach.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;33491500]Calling my statement gross and dishonest is hypocritical as shit[/quote]
You know damn well that the Russians are being the belligerent one here. We all do.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;33491500]Also, nice bullshit ya got there.
[URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia–United_States_relations#U.S._plan_to_place_missiles_in_Poland[/URL]
Unless you are referring to a different shield in 2008, I have no idea where you read that the Russians were "all for" the shield.[/QUOTE]
That was over expanding the EIS complex in Poland, not over this new shield that's going up in the Baltic states. They scrapped plans for the shield to go into Poland in 2009.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_missile_defense_complex_in_Poland[/url]
[QUOTE=Marbalo;33491500]Uh, what?
All the agreement stated was that if anything were to happen to Russia as a result of that shield, and if its interests are being directly attacked the US is legally held responsible.[/quote]
The agreement stated that the United States and NATO were not to use the shield against the Russian Federation, PERIOD. That means if the Russians were to, lets say for example, attack Spain or Turkey or Romania, as Medvedev threatened to do, with missiles, we and our allies would be expected not to use the defense shield.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;33491500]Where does it even say that "they can do whatever the fuck they want" to you or the rest of NATO?[/quote]
"The United States and NATO cannot touch Russia, but Russia can touch the United States and NATO" does not translate to "They can do whatever the fuck they want". Recall, there are still plenty of other laws and regulations in place that they have to follow through with (as the rest of us do).
[QUOTE=Marbalo;33491500]Also you're being melodramatic as shit. World wars? Nuclear holocaust? Who are you even kidding.[/quote]
And you're being dumber than a bag of rocks. Reread what I said:
[quote]Threatening to attack sovereign nations and start what could be considered a world war involving nuclear weapons is retarded and suspicious as fuck, even more so when you claim to be wanting a peaceful solution to the issue.[/quote]
And then there's the fact that in almost every post I've made in this thread I mentioned that [b]MORE THAN LIKELY NOTHING WILL HAPPEN AT ALL[/b].
[QUOTE=Marbalo;33491500]An attack on radar stations based on completely reasonable grounds is not cause for world wars.[/quote]
There are lots of people who would disagree with you on that and would consider an attack on radar installations, missile sites, etc. to be cause for war. Actually, it's, at least in the United States, considered legally to be a declaration of war. Don't know about what international laws there are on the subject, however.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;33491500]NATO will have a complete nightmare if it ever attacked Russia and actually launched a world war just because the US is being unnecessarily mysterious and sketchy and Russia being overly protective.[/quote]
That's something else entirely. Again, like I said earlier in a bunch of posts: [b]But, for the last time, it's probably all just an attempt by Medvedev to get the nationalists on his and his party's side. I seriously doubt anything will happen.[/b]
I really dont see how an anti WMD shield is something for Russia to get mad at.
[editline]29th November 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Marbalo;33491744]Holy shit, there wont be any world wars, there wont be millions of deaths.
What is wrong with you
[editline]29th November 2011[/editline]
Russians are being the "belligerent" because they have a damn good reason.
[editline]29th November 2011[/editline]
Also feel free to post sources of Russia being apparently "all for" that shield.[/QUOTE]
the reason the US is going through with it anyway is because; wouldn't you find it weird if you start to build a shield that is against nuclear weapons, and then a nation starts threatening you with nuclear weapons if you keep building it?
[QUOTE=Marbalo;33491744]Holy shit, there wont be any world wars, there wont be millions of deaths.
What is wrong with you
[editline]29th November 2011[/editline]
Russians are being the "belligerent" because they have a damn good reason.
[editline]29th November 2011[/editline]
Also feel free to post sources of Russia being apparently "all for" that shield.[/QUOTE]
EIS complex link on Wikipedia has that last bit. Also, [b]since you apparently have some kind of reading disorder, I'm going to quote ALL instances in this thread in which I said that nothing will happen from this issue[/b].
[quote]With that said and done, it's pretty obvious, however, that nothing is going happen. Nobody wants to enter a major war. This is just an attempt to get support and votes of the nationalists by Medvedev. Recall that their parliamentary polls are coming up before long.[/QUOTE]
[quote]But, again, I suspect it's just Medvedev trying to get the votes and support of the nationalists.
[/quote]
[quote]But, for the last time, it's probably all just an attempt by Medvedev to get the nationalists on his and his party's side. I seriously doubt anything will happen.[/quote]
[quote]That's something else entirely. Again, like I said earlier in a bunch of posts: [b]But, for the last time, it's probably all just an attempt by Medvedev to get the nationalists on his and his party's side. I seriously doubt anything will happen.[/b][/quote]
On the issues of world war and nuclear weaponry being used in the process, I was just pointing out what Medvedev's threatened to do and the basic consequences if he were to carry through with his threats.
Now, I'm out. There's nothing more to discuss.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;33492054]No.
The shield does not cover Russia. This means that if there was a war at any given point due to whatever reason, Russia's capability is severely hindered by this shield that is supposedly against Iran. Turning it against Russia is but a technical issue I am certain.
And how about you think reasonably for a second here, why would Russia want to allow potential Iranian missiles into Europe? Europe is one of their biggest trading partners, they have a huge bro-ship going on over natural resources they're supplying them with. Why would they want to lower their protection?
The reason is stated above. Because while it is a good shield, it's placement, it's seemingly sudden arise and the US' lack of cooperation in discussing the details of this shield is just suspicious as fuck, and Russia is completely right to threaten serious measures if the US does not back off or at least try to be reasonable. This isn't a matter that can be 'solved' by sending the US an angry letter. It wont do shit, Russia had to act then and there, because this isn't just your regular squabbling in politics-land.[/QUOTE]
Russia does have a right to be upset but when Dmitry starts acting like some cold war nut it makes matters worse. I believe the Russian leadership is smart enough not to think that NATO is actually doing this for any other reason than what they say they are. But I suppose Dmitry wants to wave his dick around for the Russian public.
[QUOTE=LunchboxOfDoom;33492102]EIS complex link on Wikipedia has that last bit. Also, since you apparently have some kind of reading disorder...[/QUOTE]
Can’t tell if you’re just being deliberately ironic or is just stupid; your own source contradicts exactly what you say. When your own fucking evidence is in direct contradiction to what you claim it to be, I’d be pretty concerned as those are signs of a “reading disorder”
[QUOTE=Starpluck;33492165]Can’t tell if you’re just being deliberately ironic, your own source contradicts exactly what you say. When you present evidence that it’s in contradiction to your claims, I’d be pretty concerned as those are signs of a “reading disorder”[/QUOTE]
The plans for the EIS complex that were abandoned in 2009 are what convinced the Russians to move Iskanders to their border between Poland and Lithuania to create their own defense shield. I don't know, but it seemed to me at least that the Defense Ministry was giddy about that as much as they were over the decision of the United States to discontinue plans to expand their complex. Medvedev was, anyway, over both.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];33489448']Even after we almost went into armed conflict a few times in 2006-2008 over this, and Russia has stated they're wiling to bomb the sites, and all they want is a legally binding contract...
By the way, the proposed shield is the red line:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/toaDi.png[/img]
Blue is the nations it's protecting
Orange is the nations its supposedly protecting from
Red is the nations capable of hitting Europe with a missile.
Tell me Russia doesn't have means for concern.[/QUOTE]
I don't understand the location of this shield. To me it looks like it's a shield against Russia.
And why does it protect some, but not other EU nations..? Greece is clearly within the shields range if Portugal is too. And it's not even protecting the nations in which it's built for the most part.
I love that as so much shit is already going on that we need to deal with, economy, widening gap of wealth distribution, corrupt democracy, and global warming, we're fucking intent on going to war with Iran, and then restarting the cold war with Russia.
I don't understand we as a country can get so eager for this shit.
[QUOTE=Zezibesh;33489963]Haha, like Finland would be protected[/QUOTE]
Pffft, each side planned to nuke Finland as area denial for both sides. I doubt that has changed :v:
[QUOTE=Rich209;33488785]I hate Russia's logic in this whole missile shield. "Do not build that missile defense shield, because we wont be able to blow you guy's up with our missiles anymore."[/QUOTE]
Isn't that fucking brilliant logic?
who ever came up with that response, most likely the person behind "U.S. officials" should go burn in a fire.
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