[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;40872202]Are you serious? Literally every other first world country has better poverty rates and better opportunities for poor people than we do, mostly because they have socialized benefits like welfare and health care. Just look at Sweden and Norway. If you have no money here you're pretty much fucked because it takes money to make money. This one of the WORST places to be poor because you can just get exploited for your labor by anyone that owns more than you.
Once again you seem to be describing some dystopian Stalin-era Soviet Union because that's not what communism is, at all, but please, go on and continue to prove you have no idea what you're saying.[/QUOTE]
Well then that's why we use the mixture of capitalism and other concepts of other economic systems or ideologies or whatever, and that's what we do.
Why we have it worse than other countries is definitely not because of one cause, and it'd be fallacious to draw that conclusion.
[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;40872091]No, it doesn't mean the same thing at all, I've given substantive reasons as to why capitalism is better, replacing my keyword "capitalism" with "fascism" without any sort of background with any logical reasons as to why what you're saying is true is NOT THE SAME.
I'm not justifying oppression and totalitarianism, I don't see any reason why I have to considering that there is very little of that going on, and the only oppression and totalitarianism going on is either easily justified by needing a stable society, or completely made up in your frustrated head.
The rest of your post is nothing but unsubstantiated contentions that almost everything we know and have seen disagrees with.
You think communism and anarchy will spur innovation and keep us free? No, it will make us basic bitches who are slaves to our natural biology and the nature around us once again. It goes without saying that without a societal structure and economic system nothing can really be done, society and economics are natural results of our human nature, we need to have structure in order to hold us together (also we're social animals so there's that), and without structure or order, we're nothing more than a rather intelligent ape.
Communism will lead to severe problems, innovation will be stifled because there's no reason to become a doctor, scientist, lawyer, what have you, if you get paid the same 3 bread pieces and a water as everyone else, which will lead to a serious problem, obviously. That along with the fact that humans strive to be different and have fun, it will always lead to someone abusing it for their benefit, leading to communism being ruined anyway.
[B]The systems you are proposing have never worked, and hopefully, will never be commonplace, because it will be the death of us.[/B][/QUOTE]
google communism and anarchism and then make a new post because i think you are having serious trouble identifying what either of these two terms mean on even a basic level.
it's like you took the shit explanation your bourgeois government fed you and accepted it at face value.
i'll help you out a little bit. these are quotes by anarchists, socialists, and communists throughout the ages. see if you can spot where your preconceived notions fall short.
"The free expression of the hopes and aspirations of a people is the greatest and only safety in a sane society." - emma goldman
"Political Freedom without economic equality is a pretense, a fraud, a lie; and the workers want no lying." - mikhail bakunin
"Any dictator would admire the uniformity and obedience of the U.S. media." - noam chomsky
"Anarchism does not mean bloodshed; it does not mean robbery, arson, etc. These monstrosities are, on the contrary, the characteristic features of capitalism. Anarchism means peace and tranquility to all." - august spies
"Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based on five thousand years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, and county commissioners." - edward abbey
communism and anarchism are ABOUT individualism, they are about being different. these philosophies see the failure of capitalism to account for the individual's yearning for freedom and expression, and seek to remove that barrier in their life. it is something that would have the control over production and consumption given to people instead of large corporations.
[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;40872212]Well then that's why we use the mixture of capitalism and other concepts of other economic systems or ideologies or whatever, and that's what we do.
Why we have it worse than other countries is definitely not because of one cause, and it'd be fallacious to draw that conclusion.[/QUOTE]
The poor are getting poorer and the rich are getting richer. We don't need to call Sherlock Holmes for this one. That money's going somewhere and it's not to the people who really need it. What's your explanation?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;40872214]google communism and anarchism and then make a new post because i think you are having serious trouble identifying what either of these two terms mean on even a basic level.
it's like you took the shit explanation your bourgeois government fed you and accepted it at face value.
i'll help you out a little bit. these are quotes by anarchists, socialists, and communists throughout the ages. see if you can spot where your preconceived notions fall short.
"The free expression of the hopes and aspirations of a people is the greatest and only safety in a sane society." - emma goldman
"Political Freedom without economic equality is a pretense, a fraud, a lie; and the workers want no lying." - mikhail bakunin
"Any dictator would admire the uniformity and obedience of the U.S. media." - noam chomsky
"Anarchism does not mean bloodshed; it does not mean robbery, arson, etc. These monstrosities are, on the contrary, the characteristic features of capitalism. Anarchism means peace and tranquility to all." - august spies
communism and anarchism are ABOUT individualism, they are about being different. these philosophies see the failure of capitalism to account for the individual's yearning for freedom and expression, and seek to remove that barrier in their life. it is something that would have the control over production and consumption given to people instead of large corporations.[/QUOTE]
Every time someone calls communism or anarchy out for being dumb, they always say "you clearly don't know what it is", I'm not so sure anyone really knows what it is until they're forced to make shit up.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;40872202]because we need to do SOMETHING instead of sitting around as people get poorer and poorer while others get richer and richer while twiddling our thumbs and saying "well we don't know if it will work so lets just maintain the status quo"[/QUOTE]
no what I'm saying is that these threads are nonsense hypothetical pissing contests that never take pragmatism into account
[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;40872231]Every time someone calls communism or anarchy out for being dumb, they always say "you clearly don't know what it is", I'm not so sure anyone really knows what it is until they're forced to make shit up.[/QUOTE]
well when you are fed bullshit through the schools and political system it's a bit frustrating when you believe it and say stupid shit like "humans strive to be different..." when individualism and expression are core parts of anarchist philosophy.
[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;40872231]Every time someone calls communism or anarchy out for being dumb, they always say "you clearly don't know what it is", I'm not so sure anyone really knows what it is until they're forced to make shit up.[/QUOTE]
The only one making shit up here is you saying dumb shit like "nobody will have incentive to be a doctor or lawyer if they get the same government-issue water and bread!" and "no freedom no entertainment"
Please define the basics of communism (in your own words don't cheat and use google) for us so you can prove you know what it is otherwise I'm going to continue to (rightly) assume you've just been talking nonsense.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;40872229]The poor are getting poorer and the rich are getting richer. We don't need to call Sherlock Holmes for this one. That money's going somewhere and it's not to the people who really need it. What's your explanation?[/QUOTE]
I don't really want to tell you my explanation because you're literally just laugh at me because of the fact that what I'm saying is just commonly laughed at, even though it's probably a lot more serious and truthful than you wish to admit.
Well I guess I'll do it anyway, the poor get poorer because the poor are generally lazier and less intelligent than the rich, the rich get richer because they're generally more intelligent. You can give me some exceptions or whatever, but that doesn't change the obvious, well documented, and clear correlation and causation. There are reasons people are poor that are unfair and unjust, vicious cycle shit, and that's a social hurtle we need to overcome, and I'm sure we will. Life is hard, life is a struggle, but without the struggle or rewards that capitalism brings, we get slow progress. Luckily capitalism usually has social programs (that are only really feasible due to the extreme amount of revenue capitalistic nations garner) that support those poor people.
Oh what have I done.
[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;40872091]
You think communism and anarchy will spur innovation and keep us free? No, it will make us basic bitches who are slaves to our natural biology and the nature around us once again. It goes without saying that without a societal structure and economic system nothing can really be done, society and economics are natural results of our human nature, we need to have structure in order to hold us together (also we're social animals so there's that), and without structure or order, we're nothing more than a rather intelligent ape.
[/QUOTE]
Anarchy is order without power. It is order without unjustified authority. You really think it is the law and the power structure that keeps us from devolving into apes, from killing?
Empathy is the most common and basic human emotion, it transcends culture and frontiers, it's just that these feelings are being repressed by our society since we've being born.
[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;40872091]
Communism will lead to severe problems, innovation will be stifled because there's no reason to become a doctor, scientist, lawyer, what have you, if you get paid the same 3 bread pieces and a water as everyone else, which will lead to a serious problem, obviously. That along with the fact that humans strive to be different and have fun, it will always lead to someone abusing it for their benefit, leading to communism being ruined anyway.
[/QUOTE]
Why people only think there is money to motivate someone? If you have what you need, why wouldn't you do what you want? I know that, I, as most people, wouldn't care about a payout if you'd do what you really want to do. I'd try to get into science even if it did have a shitty payout, because I love biology, I love genetics, I love biotechs.
[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;40872091]
[B]The systems you are proposing have never worked, and hopefully, will never be commonplace, because it will be the death of us.[/B][/QUOTE]
Great.
This kills the pretence of objectivity.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;40872214]google communism and anarchism and then make a new post because i think you are having serious trouble identifying what either of these two terms mean on even a basic level.
it's like you took the shit explanation your bourgeois government fed you and accepted it at face value.
i'll help you out a little bit. these are quotes by anarchists, socialists, and communists throughout the ages. see if you can spot where your preconceived notions fall short.
"The free expression of the hopes and aspirations of a people is the greatest and only safety in a sane society." - emma goldman
"Political Freedom without economic equality is a pretense, a fraud, a lie; and the workers want no lying." - mikhail bakunin
"Any dictator would admire the uniformity and obedience of the U.S. media." - noam chomsky
"Anarchism does not mean bloodshed; it does not mean robbery, arson, etc. These monstrosities are, on the contrary, the characteristic features of capitalism. Anarchism means peace and tranquility to all." - august spies
"Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based on five thousand years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, and county commissioners." - edward abbey
[B]communism[/B] and anarchism are[B] ABOUT individualism[/B[B]], they are about being different[/B]. these philosophies see the failure of capitalism to account for the individual's yearning for freedom and expression, and seek to remove that barrier in their life. it is something that would have the control over production and consumption given to people instead of large corporations.[/QUOTE]
Just shut the fuck up, you have no idea what youre talking about.
[highlight](User was banned for this post (""Just shut the fuck up, you have no idea what youre talking about." Don't be rude." - Swebonny))[/highlight]
What was this thread about, again?
[QUOTE=Mechanical43;40872265]
Why people only think there is money to motivate someone? If you have what you need, why wouldn't you do what you want? I know that, I, as most people, wouldn't care about a payout if you'd do what you really want to do. I'd try to get into science even if it did have a shitty payout, because I love biology, I love genetics, I love biotechs.
.[/QUOTE]
This is without a doubt the most ignorant and naive thing I have ever heard in my entire life
[editline]1st June 2013[/editline]
"I enjoy my job therefore I'd totally be okay with not getting anything in return for my hard work", you're a fucking liar.
[editline]1st June 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mechanical43;40872265]Anarchy is order without power. It is order without unjustified authority. [B]You really think it is the law and the power structure that keeps us from devolving into apes, from killing?[/B][/QUOTE]
Well it's really more about society in general rather than law and power structure in particular, though law and power structure are extremely important...
[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;40872264]I don't really want to tell you my explanation because you're literally just laugh at me because of the fact that what I'm saying is just commonly laughed at, even though it's probably a lot more serious and truthful than you wish to admit.[/quote]
Maybe if people are laughing it's because you're saying silly things.
[quote]Well I guess I'll do it anyway, the poor get poorer because the poor are generally lazier and less intelligent than the rich, the rich get richer because they're generally more intelligent. You can give me some exceptions or whatever, but that doesn't change the obvious, well documented, and clear correlation and causation. There are reasons people are poor that are unfair and unjust, vicious cycle shit, and that's a social hurtle we need to overcome, and I'm sure we will. Life is hard, life is a struggle, but without the struggle or rewards that capitalism brings, we get slow progress. Luckily capitalism usually has social programs (that are only really feasible due to the extreme amount of revenue capitalistic nations garner) that support those poor people.[/quote]
Like this LOL. You have no idea what you're talking about. If it had anything to do with laziness like I said, everyone would be rich because no one wants to be fucking poor and would work hard. Think outside the box now, maybe the poor are less intelligent because they can't afford a proper education since our education system puts you 100,000 dollars in debt by the time you're twenty to pay off to big banks for the rest of your life? Still not seeing the problem yet?
[QUOTE=Mechanical43;40872265]
Why people only think there is money to motivate someone? If you have what you need, why wouldn't you do what you want? I know that, I, as most people, wouldn't care about a payout if you'd do what you really want to do. I'd try to get into science even if it did have a shitty payout, because I love biology, I love genetics, I love biotechs.[/QUOTE]
ffs this is the easiest argument to debunk in any reactionary or capitalist's repertoire. if people were only spurred by financial incentives, no one would become doctors, scientists, engineers, carpenters, masons, etc. because all these jobs pay SHIT compared to business and have you working incredibly long hours. and also no one would take up hobbies in their spare time either. people would work, eat, sleep, and fuck if the capitalist's vision were correct.
people do stuff because they are empowered by their work. people want to be artists in their trade, whether science or carpentry. humans are drawn to creation and work hardest when they can do it freely without being pushed by others.
[QUOTE=SexualShark;40872267]Just shut the fuck up, you have no idea what youre talking about.[/QUOTE]
um excuse me i think the anarchist would know a thing or two about his own personal social philosophy tyvm.
[QUOTE=SexualShark;40872267]Just shut the fuck up, you have no idea what youre talking about.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry, where's your contribution to the thread again?
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;40872288]Maybe if people are laughing it's because you're saying silly things.
Like this LOL. You have no idea what you're talking about. If it had anything to do with laziness like I said, everyone would be rich because no one wants to be fucking poor and would work hard. Think outside the box now, maybe the poor are less intelligent because they can't afford a proper education since our education system puts you 100,000 dollars in debt by the time you're twenty to pay off to big banks for the rest of your life? Still not seeing the problem yet?[/QUOTE]
This is exactly what I expected, this is literally verbatim the exact reaction I expected.
[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;40872278]"I enjoy my job therefore I'd totally be okay with not getting anything in return for my hard work", you're a fucking liar.[/QUOTE]
Wow he enjoys doing good things without getting a monetary reward what a fucking terrible person. You're what's wrong with a capitalist system.
[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;40872278]This is without a doubt the most ignorant and naive thing I have ever heard in my entire life
[editline]1st June 2013[/editline]
"I enjoy my job therefore I'd totally be okay with not getting anything in return for my hard work", you're a fucking liar.
[editline]1st June 2013[/editline]
Well it's really more about society in general rather than law and power structure in particular, though law and power structure are extremely important...[/QUOTE]
i'm waiting for you to explain anarchism and communism in your own words please. i'm really interested what dystopia crops into your mind when you hear about that scary c-word.
[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;40872297]This is exactly what I expected, this is literally verbatim the exact reaction I expected.[/QUOTE]
Can you discredit what I said or are you going to stroke your ego some more?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;40872292]ffs this is the easiest argument to debunk in any reactionary or capitalist's repertoire. [B]if people were only spurred by financial incentives, no one would become doctors, scientists, engineers, carpenters, masons, etc. because all these jobs pay SHIT compared to business [/B]and have you working incredibly long hours. and also no one would take up hobbies in their spare time either. people would work, eat, sleep, and fuck if the capitalist's vision were correct.
[/QUOTE]
the fuck you talking about?
You're greatly overestimating the drive of general humans. When it comes down to it, people put the gigantic amount of work into being a doctor to fulfill their dreams, but they would be muuuuch less inclined to do so if they weren't paid a ridiculous sum.
[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;40872314]the fuck you talking about?
You're greatly overestimating the drive of general humans. When it comes down to it, people put the gigantic amount of work into being a doctor to fulfill their dreams, but they would be muuuuch less inclined to do so if they weren't paid a ridiculous sum.[/QUOTE]
like i said, doctors are paid SHIT compared to the work they do. business pays far more for far less work.
why are there doctors?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;40872301]i'm waiting for you to explain anarchism and communism in your own words please. i'm really interested what dystopia crops into your mind when you hear about that scary c-word.[/QUOTE]
Well it's good that you've gotten to the condescension part of your argument, very beautiful.
Anarchy is a form of government that attempts to have a very loose kind rule, no law is typically one of the biggest things, I don't see many scenarios, especially now, where that would ever work, even if a society started with no law, law would eventually be made because of its necessity.
As I've ever understood communism, it's all about uniformity, people do what they can and get nothing more or less than what they and what anyone else needs.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;40872292]ffs this is the easiest argument to debunk in any reactionary or capitalist's repertoire. if people were only spurred by financial incentives, no one would become doctors, scientists, engineers, carpenters, masons, etc. because all these jobs pay SHIT compared to business and have you working incredibly long hours. and also no one would take up hobbies in their spare time either. people would work, eat, sleep, and fuck if the capitalist's vision were correct.
people do stuff because they are empowered by their work. people want to be artists in their trade, whether science or carpentry. humans are drawn to creation and work hardest when they can do it freely without being pushed by others.
um excuse me i think the anarchist would know a thing or two about his own personal social philosophy tyvm.[/QUOTE]
Oh really now? Ill tell you what, give me one example of anarchy working, because i damn well know your ass wouldnt tolerate living in one for long.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;40872318]like i said, doctors are paid SHIT compared to the work they do. business pays far more for far less work.
why are there doctors?[/QUOTE]
Doctors are paid shit? Physicians make an average of $80-$100 an hour, which is greater than a 6 figure job.
Anyway, some people are likely just unable to do business, or would rather be a doctor. I never said that monetary gain is the only incentive for people to work extra hard, but it is definitely the largest.
[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;40872336]Well it's good that you've gotten to the condescension part of your argument, very beautiful.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;40872297]This is exactly what I expected, this is literally verbatim the exact reaction I expected.[/QUOTE]
yeah you don't seem to have much of a problem with that you fucking hypocrite.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;40872305]Can you discredit what I said or are you going to stroke your ego some more?[/QUOTE]
No, I can't discredit what you said, no one ever can. When you got it in your mind that you're the victim of an unjust system you'll never allow yourself to think otherwise, because to think otherwise is to admit that you have failed.
[editline]1st June 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;40872352]yeah you don't seem to have much of a problem with that you fucking hypocrite.[/QUOTE]
I don't think pointing out that my expectations were met is very condescending, especially not compared to him babying me and presuming I know nothing.
[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;40872336]
Anarchy is a form of government that attempts to have a very loose kind rule, no law is typically one of the biggest things, I don't see many scenarios, especially now, where that would ever work, even if a society started with no law, law would eventually be made because of its necessity.[/quote]
mechanical quoted proudhon earlier and it pretty much applies. "anarchy is order without power". there is no government in an anarchist system. at least, not a traditional government.
anarchism is about people managing their own affairs individually and collectively. the factory is managed by managers voted in by the workers. the community makes decisions based on democratic and consensus voting. rules are decided with direct consent of the people, not by any arbitrary or coercive body.
[quote]As I've ever understood communism, it's all about uniformity, people do what they can and get nothing more or less than what they and what anyone else needs.[/QUOTE]
communism, put simply, is a stateless and classless society. equality is a major part of that equation, but uniformity is not. goods are distributed fairly and evenly by the people who produce and the people who consume co-operating together. communism does not necessarily mean "no incentives" in all cases though. if there is a shortage of doctors and incentives were needed to encourage them, then people might vote to give up some of the resources they receive to go to doctors and help encourage their work.
the difference is that any inequality is chosen with direct consent by the people involved. it is not forced upon them.
[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;40872354]No, I can't discredit what you said, no one ever can. When you got it in your mind that you're the victim of an unjust system you'll never allow yourself to think otherwise, because to think otherwise is to admit that you have failed.
[editline]1st June 2013[/editline]
I don't think pointing out that my expectations were met is very condescending, especially not compared to him babying me and presuming I know nothing.[/QUOTE]
Okay besides the strawman you're admitting defeat. Excellent.
Yeah, because posting "HAH THIS IS JUST AS I EXPECTED!" and nothing else [I]isn't[/I] condescending. Keep trying to justify it it just makes your look more like an ass.
I mean in any of my earlier posts I could have said "hey my expecation of you being a complete moron were met" but I'm not that much of a hypocritical jerk.
Also I'd like to discredit your claim that "no one wants to be poor so they'd work hard", well you know that's true, and they do work pretty hard, but they don't work hard when it's most effective. Often poor people do poorly in school for whatever reason, and that leads them to a life of menial labor where it's difficult to make very much money, but that's our society, you need to put work in to reap the benefits, and that's not a bad thing at all.
Too bad people often don't work hard enough and get fucked over, but I don't think it's fair to blame the system, the individual should and can be considered for blaming.
But of course, being poor is never that person's fault, it's always the big mean systems, right?
[QUOTE=SexualShark;40872345]Oh really now? Ill tell you what, give me one example of anarchy working, because i damn well know your ass wouldnt tolerate living in one for long.[/QUOTE]
anarchism continually "works" under the surface of every western democracy around. there are co-operatives, shared living spaces, communal gardens, intentional societies, and worker-managed companies throughout the usa.
anarchism cannot flourish in a pure form with capitalism around, but it flourishes in a compromised form in the presence of capitalism already.
[editline]2nd June 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;40872375]Also I'd like to discredit your claim that "no one wants to be poor so they'd work hard", well you know that's true, and they do work pretty hard, but they don't work hard when it's most effective. Often poor people do poorly in school for whatever reason, and that leads them to a life of menial labor where it's difficult to make very much money, but that's our society, you need to put work in to reap the benefits, and that's not a bad thing at all.
Too bad people often don't work hard enough and get fucked over, but I don't think it's fair to blame the system, the individual should and can be considered for blaming.
But of course, being poor is never that person's fault, it's always the big mean systems, right?[/QUOTE]
if everyone got a good education and worked really hard would the system be able to support absolutely no one doing menial labor?
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