[QUOTE=yawmwen;40872592]if the society has more than ~150 people(dunbar's number), it isn't much of a big deal. organizing 1,000 people is closer to organizing 1,000,000 people than it is to organizing 50 people.[/QUOTE]
What I'm imaging is anarchy will lead to a bunch of cities or villages or whatever that follow anarchist ideologies within themselves, but don't have too much contact outside of that village. I'm not too sure an anarchy could function for too long considering the seeming insistence of a sort of independence from a large scale society thing, each different community would have different ideologies, some may break anarchy, some may not, and then none of them would cooperate and we'd have a big problem.
For a society to became a true working example of socialism or communism, it must slowly emerge from the ashes of capitalism. Not directly off the bat.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;40872610]"Unless democracy is a fraud and the sovereignty of the People a joke, it must be admitted that each citizen in the sphere of his [or her] industry, each municipal, district or provincial council within its own territory . . . should act directly and by itself in administering the interests which it includes, and should exercise full sovereignty in relation to them." [General Idea of the Revolution, p. 276]
i'm basically quoting various things right now since i think other writers have done a better job articulating these ideas than i probably could.[/QUOTE]
I'm kind of an idiot and I have trouble understanding quotes like these, unfortunately. I...require clarification.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;40872610]"Unless democracy is a fraud and the sovereignty of the People a joke, it must be admitted that each citizen in the sphere of his [or her] industry, each municipal, district or provincial council within its own territory . . . should act directly and by itself in administering the interests which it includes, and should exercise full sovereignty in relation to them." [General Idea of the Revolution, p. 276]
i'm basically quoting various things right now since i think other writers have done a better job articulating these ideas than i probably could.[/QUOTE]
Except feel-good quotes and pseudo-truthisms about how great people are and how everyone really just to work together isn't really saying anything.
[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;40872625]What I'm imaging is anarchy will lead to a bunch of cities or villages or whatever that follow anarchist ideologies within themselves, but don't have too much contact outside of that village. I'm not too sure an anarchy could function for too long considering the seeming insistence of a sort of independence from a large scale society thing, each different community would have different ideologies, some may break anarchy, some may not, and then none of them would cooperate and we'd have a big problem.[/QUOTE]
again, it isn't against "large scale society", it's against the "state". anarchists seek alternative organizational methods that allow people to cooperate and trade as equals, of their own free will. it is not the goal of anarchism to simply insulate itself from all outside contact or organization.
[editline]2nd June 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;40872639]I'm kind of an idiot and I have trouble understanding quotes like these, unfortunately. I...require clarification.[/QUOTE]
this quote means basically that we(anarchists) are for the democratic and liberated mobilization of people. that every person should have a voice in the decisions that affect them.
[QUOTE=Mingebox;40872641]Except feel-good quotes and pseudo-truthisms about how great people are and how everyone really just to work together isn't really saying anything.[/QUOTE]
truism. and, comparatively, you are saying something of value here?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;40872644]again, it isn't against "large scale society", it's against the "state". anarchists seek alternative organizational methods that allow people to cooperate and trade as equals, or their own free will. it is not the goal of anarchism to simply insulate itself from all outside contact or organization.[/QUOTE]
Well it isn't like these organizational methods came up for no reason, they came because of how humans like to work, states, companies, anything that is a group of people comes because of human necessity to want to group things up and make structured groups and the state is just another one of these groups, it's just that the state was made from the human need to impose structure and stability on all its population, the state isn't necessarily evil or even bad.
[editline]1st June 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=yawmwen;40872644]this quote means basically that we(anarchists) are for the democratic and liberated mobilization of people. that every person should have a voice in the decisions that affect them.[/QUOTE]
That's nice and all, and bares semblance to how our local communities work (direct voting on propositions and shit for example), but it doesn't seem to work on a massive scale, it would be impractical to poll everyone on every decision ever, and since most people aren't very intelligent, knowledgeable, or educated, they could easily make the wrong choice, and it would devolve into mob rule, which is bad.
[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;40871085]You have the freedom to almost literally do anything you want, you can believe anything you want, and as long as you're not breaking the completely coherent and logical rules imposed to keep order in our society, you can preach it any way you want. The fact that you have the ability to literally almost do anything you want (name a few things you can't do that you should definitely be able to do) is I suppose the reason why you've come to the conclusion that you're oppressed, because you're completely ignorant of the harshness of other countries that aren't as free as our's.
[editline]1st June 2013[/editline]
You aren't forced into slavery, you can be unemployed, you have literally every right to do so, and in fact our government will attempt to support you so you DON'T DIE, our society as well attempts to support people who are unemployed and can't support themselves.
Might I add that having to work to survive is common of EVERY SINGLE SOCIETY THAT HAS LITERALLY EVER EXISTED. That is a basic law of economics, resources are scarce, so they need to be partitioned based on something, and that used to be labor, now replaced by currency that is typically the result of labor.
[editline]1st June 2013[/editline]
It would be ridiculous to think that you should be able to get every resource that you need without working for it, that's just not how a finite amount of resources can be partitioned, you need to do your part, society is a team effort, being able to live is a struggle, we have it a lot easier than most other countries (especially 3rd world countries).
And anyway, life in nature is a struggle, you need to work to survive, and this carries over, but we have it so much easier than you even know.
Honestly I'm not really sure about you, slavery referring to employment I've assumed, how is being paid money in order to buy your basic needs plus (typically) entertainment goods and things that increase your happiness slavery?[/QUOTE]
You sir, fucking earned the winner I rated you. This is a magnificent post.
[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;40872675]Well it isn't like these organizational methods came up for no reason, they came because of how humans like to work, states, companies, anything that is a group of people comes because of human necessity to want to group things up and make structured groups and the state is just another one of these groups, it's just that the state was made from the human need to impose structure and stability on all its population, the state isn't necessarily evil or even bad.[/quote]
the "state" seeks stability through violence and threat of violence. it does not do so with direct consent of people. it is a self-perpetuating force that attempts to control us whether we agree or not.
[quote]That's nice and all, and bares semblance to how our local communities work (direct voting on propositions and shit for example), but it doesn't seem to work on a massive scale, it would be impractical to poll everyone on every decision ever, and since most people aren't very intelligent, knowledgeable, or educated, they could easily make the wrong choice, and it would devolve into mob rule, which is bad.[/QUOTE]
that's why decentralization is a must. why should someone in new york have a say in the life of someone in los angeles? wouldn't someone in los angeles have a much better idea of what they need than someone in new york?
if there must be communication between los angeles and new york, it must be based on equality and mutual respect. that the people of both cities are agreeing to cooperate on some issue(probably trade) for the betterment of both peoples.
[editline]2nd June 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mingebox;40872641]Except feel-good quotes and pseudo-truthisms about how great people are and how everyone really just to work together isn't really saying anything.[/QUOTE]
it isn't a feel good quote. it's about how society should be structured.
[editline]2nd June 2013[/editline]
i can get feel good quotes too though.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;40872712]the "state" seeks stability through violence and threat of violence. it does not do so with direct consent of people. it is a self-perpetuating force that attempts to control us whether we agree or not.
that's why decentralization is a must. why should someone in new york have a say in the life of someone in los angeles? wouldn't someone in los angeles have a much better idea of what they need than someone in new york?
if there must be communication between los angeles and new york, it must be based on equality and mutual respect. that the people of both cities are agreeing to cooperate on some issue(probably trade) for the betterment of both peoples.[/QUOTE]
I don't think the presumption that the state seeks stability through violence is correct, or at least it's very misleading. In actuality, anarchy would deal with disobedience and clear breaches in what we know as law (murder, basic stuff like that) in the same way, just because the system that deals with such actions isn't a gigantic state doesn't really change much anything, the concept of a state is a requirement of society. The state technically doesn't really deal with law breakers anyway, the federal government very seldom does anything in the way of prosecution for crimes (and if it does, that person probably did something ridiculously awful), dealing with crime is more down to the community, police officers are community members, and while they do work for the federal government I guess, the laws often come down to municipalities and states, except for rather intrinsic laws that would exist no matter what ideology we're in.
And that's kind of how we operate in the USA, people in NY don't really have a say in the life of people in LA, they in fact have very little effect, they don't vote on their county or state's laws or customs...so...I don't think that's an issue we face.
[editline]1st June 2013[/editline]
And anyway, without centralization it makes it so that communities are more of human population islands that operate more or less independently, and I've already mentioned that each community may betray its anarchist roots and convert and attempt to beat up everyone else, and regardless, having small communities without centralization and a connected society leads to very little development in terms of science and stuff.
China is a shit hole. The industrial areas are [B]horrible shitty places to exist in[/B], and anyone who says otherwise, is, by default, idiotic.
[editline]2nd June 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=yawmwen;40871074]to be forced into slavery in order to survive, is that freedom? in the american system you have one freedom above all else, the freedom to sell yourself. failing that, the american system grants you your next freedom: the freedom to die.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=yawmwen;40871010]oppression comes in many forms. ours happens to come with a smile and a price-tag.
not to mention any comfort we feel in the usa comes from the brutal exploitation of people in places like china.[/QUOTE]
Oh man, the cynicism in this one.
[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;40872758]I don't think the presumption that the state seeks stability through violence is correct, or at least it's very misleading. In actuality, anarchy would deal with disobedience and clear breaches in what we know as law (murder, basic stuff like that) in the same way, just because the system that deals with such actions isn't a gigantic state doesn't really change much anything, the concept of a state is a requirement of society. The state technically doesn't really deal with law breakers anyway, the federal government very seldom does anything in the way of prosecution for crimes (and if it does, that person probably did something ridiculously awful), dealing with crime is more down to the community, police officers are community members, and while they do work for the federal government I guess, the laws often come down to municipalities and states, except for rather intrinsic laws that would exist no matter what ideology we're in.
And that's kind of how we operate in the USA, people in NY don't really have a say in the life of people in LA, they in fact have very little effect, they don't vote on their county or state's laws or customs...so...I don't think that's an issue we face.
[editline]1st June 2013[/editline]
And anyway, without centralization it makes it so that communities are more of human population islands that operate more or less independently, and I've already mentioned that each community may betray its anarchist roots and convert and attempt to beat up everyone else, and regardless, having small communities without centralization and a connected society leads to very little development in terms of science and stuff.[/QUOTE]
well our political system actually dictates that the "people" of new york have as much say as the people in los angeles over whatever the federal government does. since we have a fairly centralized system, that means a lot of laws like drug laws or healthcare laws or economic regulations blanket over large populations that might not want to opt in to those ideas.
decentralization simply means that communities get more control over community issues. it does not mean we have to isolate ourselves, only that we need to make sure no community exercises power over another community without direct consent of both parties.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;40871074]to be forced into slavery in order to survive, is that freedom? in the american system you have one freedom above all else, the freedom to sell yourself. failing that, the american system grants you your next freedom: the freedom to die.[/QUOTE]
I've been trying for a solid 20 minutes to figure out a way to respond to this but it's so fucking stupid you've literally left me speechless
[QUOTE=butre;40872819]I've been trying for a solid 20 minutes to figure out a way to respond to this but it's so fucking stupid you've literally left me speechless[/QUOTE]
I bet you want 20 minutes of your life back. He sure is really ~EDGY~ and ~HARDCORE~ talking about how the man is just putting him down.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;40872712]the "state" seeks stability through violence and threat of violence. it does not do so with direct consent of people. it is a self-perpetuating force that attempts to control us whether we agree or not.[/QUOTE]
There's always going to be the threat of violence, no matter what. The more people you have living in the same area, the greater the chance two parties are going to have a conflict where nobody is willing to back down, and the greater the chance there's going to be maladjusted individuals with no interest in the well-being of others. The only way anyone could hope to be free of coercion would to be a hermit.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;40872818]well our political system actually dictates that the "people" of new york have as much say as the people in los angeles over whatever the federal government does. since we have a fairly centralized system, that means a lot of laws like drug laws or healthcare laws or economic regulations blanket over large populations that might not want to opt in to those ideas.
decentralization simply means that communities get more control over community issues. it does not mean we have to isolate ourselves, only that we need to make sure no community exercises power over another community without direct consent of both parties.[/QUOTE]
Yeah but the federal government doesn't really have too much of a say on things, it really only exists as a backbone for the states to adhere to while they decide their own laws, and even further specific communities can make their own laws. Of course, if the federal government makes something illegal, it is illegal across the board, but the federal government doesn't seemingly do too much illegalizing on that front.
[editline]1st June 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=J!NX;40872823]I bet you want 20 minutes of your life back. He sure is really ~EDGY~ and ~HARDCORE~ talking about how the man is just putting him down.[/QUOTE]
There's no point in insulting him, it's rude and immature. He has, at least, explained his position calmly and well enough to be treated with respect.
[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;40872832]Yeah but the federal government doesn't really have too much of a say on things, it really only exists as a backbone for the states to adhere to while they decide their own laws, and even further specific communities can make their own laws. Of course, if the federal government makes something illegal, it is illegal across the board, but the federal government doesn't seemingly do too much illegalizing on that front.
[editline]1st June 2013[/editline]
There's no point in insulting him.[/QUOTE]
It just sounds so childish when it sounds like he's basically saying America has the same system of oppression to China when its just, such a far fetched thing to say :v:
[QUOTE=J!NX;40872851]It just sounds so childish when he's trying to compare how the chinese are treated to american life[/QUOTE]
I agree there, but it's still pointless and counterproductive to insult people, of course, it's not really your fault, I blame human nature.
[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;40872832]Yeah but the federal government doesn't really have too much of a say on things, it really only exists as a backbone for the states to adhere to while they decide their own laws, and even further specific communities can make their own laws. Of course, if the federal government makes something illegal, it is illegal across the board, but the federal government doesn't seemingly do too much illegalizing on that front.[/QUOTE]
if that was all the federal government did, we would be a confederation. i wouldn't have nearly as much of a problem with a form of government that worked as you claim ours worked as i do with our government as it really does work.
[editline]2nd June 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=J!NX;40872851]It just sounds so childish when it sounds like he's basically equating American life to chinese life, only america is "Better at hiding it"[/QUOTE]
not really hiding it, we do it in different ways. we still oppress each other economically and our government is even involved in infiltrating and eroding social/political movements. we don't stamp out dissent with an iron fist, we use subtle means to undermine attempts at positive change in the system through subterfuge and creating structures of dependence.
i'm not saying china and the usa are the same, or that one is not preferable to the other. i'm saying that we have no room to talk about oppression when our government has found very effective ways of oppressing us.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;40872865]if that was all the federal government did, we would be a confederation. i wouldn't have nearly as much of a problem with a form of government that worked as you claim ours worked as i do with our government as it really does work.[/QUOTE]
Well the federal government is also the face of our country when it comes to other foreign affairs, its purpose is mostly to be our representation internationally and be our ultimate law maker, I don't really want to make the claim that the federal government has legalized more things that genuinely deserve to legal/illegal (abortion and murder respectively) than it has made unfairly illegal (weed, for example) because I don't think I can get much to back me up on that, but I feel that might be the case.
[QUOTE=J!NX;40872823]I bet you want 20 minutes of your life back. He sure is really ~EDGY~ and ~HARDCORE~ talking about how the man is just putting him down.[/QUOTE]
Thinking there is other system of human organisation other than capitalism is being edgy and hardcore now?
Please.
[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;40872885]Well the federal government is also the face of our country when it comes to other foreign affairs, its purpose is mostly to be our representation internationally and be our ultimate law maker, I don't really want to make the claim that the federal government has legalized more things that genuinely deserve to legal/illegal (abortion and murder respectively) than it has made unfairly illegal (weed, for example) because I don't think I can get much to back me up on that, but I feel that might be the case.[/QUOTE]
but whenever it makes anything legal/illegal, it doesn't take into account the nuanced positions of various communities and groups. when government begins regulating an industry, it could benefit people in one part of the country and seriously hurt people in another part. shouldn't the communities that would be hurt by such legislation or regulation get a say in whether or not they want to follow those laws?
[QUOTE=Mechanical43;40872900]Thinking there is other system of human organisation other than capitalism is being edgy and hardcore now?
Please.[/QUOTE]
To be fair he wasn't talking about his subscription to other social/economic ideologies, but rather his position that we Americans are heavily oppressed because of the way our society works.
[QUOTE=Mechanical43;40872900]Thinking there is other system of human organisation other than capitalism is being edgy and hardcore now?
Please.[/QUOTE]
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/Emma_goldman_1886.jpg/220px-Emma_goldman_1886.jpg[/img]
holy shit look at this edgy motherfucker!
[img]http://transcendentalism-legacy.tamu.edu/images/thoreau-rowse.gif[/img]
the face of hardcore!
[editline]2nd June 2013[/editline]
wait why are so many anarchist pictures of people looking to their right with some mellow look on their face?
[editline]2nd June 2013[/editline]
[img]http://www.nndb.com/people/838/000024766/mbak.jpg[/img]
oh god wtf
[QUOTE=Mechanical43;40872900]Thinking there is other system of human organisation other than capitalism is being edgy and hardcore now?
Please.[/QUOTE]
yeah there are other things that work but that doesn't mean capitalism is oppressive
[editline]2nd June 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=yawmwen;40872910]but whenever it makes anything legal/illegal, it doesn't take into account the nuanced positions of various communities and groups. when government begins regulating an industry, it could benefit people in one part of the country and seriously hurt people in another part. shouldn't the communities that would be hurt by such legislation or regulation get a say in whether or not they want to follow those laws?[/QUOTE]
that has literally nothing at all to do with capitalism. you're arguing for a confederacy.
[QUOTE=butre;40872937]that has literally nothing at all to do with capitalism. you're arguing for a confederacy.[/QUOTE]
he wasn't talking about capitalism in that post either ;)
[QUOTE=FinalHunter;40870741]They do that all the time anyways, they can go fuck themselves in my opinion. Such great trade partners they are when they're stealing hundreds of millions in tech and we can't even get them to apologize for violations of human rights.[/QUOTE]
Cause you guys have the moral high ground right?
Guantanamo Bay disagrees.
[QUOTE=Mechanical43;40872900]Thinking there is other system of human organisation other than capitalism is being edgy and hardcore now?
Please.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=yawmwen;40871074]to be forced into slavery in order to survive, is that freedom? in the american system you have one freedom above all else, the freedom to sell yourself. failing that, the american system grants you your next freedom: the freedom to die.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=yawmwen;40871010]oppression comes in many forms. [B]ours happens to come with a smile and a price-tag.[/B]
not to mention any comfort we feel in the usa comes from the brutal exploitation of people in places like china.[/QUOTE]
no but these quotes were why I was so quick to say shit like that.
Even if his posts are intelligent and rational, these ones are not. He's simply saying it really bluntly and way too openly. If you have radical opinions you can't just state them out in the open all at once. Nobody will take you seriously.
Of course, America is a dick to its people. But we sure do have the right to tell China out, seeing what they do to their people. America has a bad economy, China does not (I would assume), yet China still is in a shit hole. Blame its industrial revolution. (American Ind. Rev was just as shitty, but America today isn't that shitty)
If i started to talk about god and going to hell for killing human beings through abortion in a thread about abortion very bluntly then I'd expect many raised brows.
[QUOTE=J!NX;40872988]no but these quotes were why I was so quick to say shit like that.
Even if his posts are intelligent and rational, these ones are not. He's simply saying it really bluntly and way too openly. If you have radical opinions you can't just state them out in the open all at once. Nobody will take you seriously.
Of course, America is a dick to its people. But we sure do have the right to tell China out, seeing what they do to their people. America has a bad economy, China does not (I would assume), yet China still is in a shit hole. Blame its industrial revolution. (American Ind. Rev was just as shitty, but America today isn't that shitty)
If i started to talk about god and going to hell for killing human beings through abortion in a thread about abortion very bluntly then I'd expect many raised brows.[/QUOTE]
"Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like it's from Neptune."
[QUOTE=Pierrewithahat;40872987]Cause you guys have the moral high ground right?
Guantanamo Bay disagrees.[/QUOTE]
Why do people make this argument? Are you familiar with the term "lesser evil"? Something can be better than something else without being perfect. Compared to the stuff China pulls (Tiananmen, forced sterilizations, child limits, massive censorship) the US running one prison is preferable, not perfect, but definitely better.
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