America pushes China's button - Polidicks

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40879643]it is under capitalism. if people were valued based on their contributions to society then business owners would get no pay and the employees would get all the pay. that isn't how capitalism works though. if you are not bourgeois, you are pretty much a slave. your housing, food, entertainment, etc. is provided to you by a land owner in exchange for labor.[/QUOTE] What? How does a business owner not have a gigantic contribution to society? You're just being irrational.

[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;40879926]What? How does a business owner not have a gigantic contribution to society? You're just being irrational.[/QUOTE] I don't get what he's saying is he saying we should get pay without work?

[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;40879926]What? How does a business owner not have a gigantic contribution to society? You're just being irrational.[/QUOTE] how does someone contribute to society by doing nothing but owning a piece of paper, exactly?

[QUOTE=J!NX;40879925]I'd love to live in an anarchist / socialist based place* *provided said place is a small town where it'd actually and not a huge country like, America[/QUOTE] thats the thing, we need a way to manage all that land and people while simultaneously not turning into a representative democracy and thus starting the whole song and dance all over this is why technology is the way forward; we will have machines to manage it for us, thus removing the corrupt human element

[QUOTE=J!NX;40879925]I'd love to live in an anarchist / socialist based place* *provided said place is a small town where it'd actually and not a huge country like, America[/QUOTE] very large governments controlling very large areas of land creates a lot of problems, actually. i wonder if things in the United States might be better off if it were split into smaller provinces under their own governments, and then have something similar to the EU set up between them. representatives wouldn't have to vie for the vastly-varying geographical, economical, and social interests of the people living across the nation.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40879958]how does someone contribute to society by doing nothing but owning a piece of paper, exactly?[/QUOTE] see this analogy would work if owning and managing a business didnt require any work, especially for small businesses which are the majority of businesses

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;40879974]see this analogy would work if owning and managing a business didnt require any work[/QUOTE] owning a business requires absolutely no work. managing a business =/= owning one. [editline]2nd June 2013[/editline] an owner can(and often does) hire a manager.

[QUOTE=joes33431;40879968]very large governments controlling very large areas of land creates a lot of problems, actually. i wonder if things in the United States might be better off if it were split into smaller provinces under their own governments, and then have something similar to the EU set up between them. representatives wouldn't have to vie for the vastly-varying geographical, economical, and social interests of the people living across the nation.[/QUOTE] thats not too far off from what the us is right now

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40879983]owning a business requires absolutely no work. managing a business =/= owning one. [editline]2nd June 2013[/editline] an owner can(and often does) hire a manager.[/QUOTE] Except getting there takes a lot of work, and it still does require work to stop it from falling HEY GUESS WHO MANAGES THE MANAGERS HMM???

[QUOTE=J!NX;40880014]Except getting there takes a lot of work, and it still does require work to stop it from falling HEY GUESS WHO MANAGES THE MANAGERS HMM???[/QUOTE] lol it doesn't take a lot of work at all, just a lot of capital. getting capital can be hard work but it isn't always the case.

[QUOTE=joes33431;40879968]very large governments controlling very large areas of land creates a lot of problems, actually. i wonder if things in the United States might be better off if it were split into smaller provinces under their own governments, and then have something similar to the EU set up between them. representatives wouldn't have to vie for the vastly-varying geographical, economical, and social interests of the people living across the nation.[/QUOTE] Isnt the US like that? I mean, you got the federal constitution, which states rules to be followed by everyone, and then you leave other things for states to decide by themselves.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40880043]lol it doesn't take a lot of work at all, just a lot of capital. getting capital can be hard work but it isn't always the case.[/QUOTE] Do you personally know any business owners?

[QUOTE=J!NX;40880473]Do you personally know any business owners?[/QUOTE] i have in my life known a few.

[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;40879463]Well that's clearly not what I meant, I meant that you're literally copying what people in this thread have already said.[/QUOTE] Please do point where. I reread the thread and as far as I can read, I didn't ''copy'' anyone. You're just being malevolent now

[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;40880286]Isnt the US like that? I mean, you got the federal constitution, which states rules to be followed by everyone, and then you leave other things for states to decide by themselves.[/QUOTE] the national government is still highly ineffective at representing the interests of the population, and national legislation is a lot more difficult to implement effectively due to the widely-varying demographics and conditions in a single country spanning over a third (if not a half) of a continent. it's come to the point where that basically means that the national legislature has nothing else to do but throw bombs at people they don't like and argue about abortions; this isn't to mention the ridiculous amounts of corporate corruption and near-lack of accountability that these representatives have.

Capitalism builds more power for those with wealth and doesn't really give a reward for hard work. It gives a reward for well timed work, something happening at the right moment. But pretending it acts upon a measure of hardwork is bullshit. Money and power are directly linked in capitalism, no duh right? Start on a blank field and capitalism quickly puts huge barriers between people that are very hard to overcome when that field starts getting changed by those people with power and money. The gap gets bigger and bigger. There's always exceptions to rules. But this is the standard that capitalism applies over long periods of time.

What is so hard to grasp about the idea of Anarchy or Communism. It's a dogma, a way of life and a societal mindset. One that teaches us that if we work together we can ALL reap the bounty of our work. It's not about sitting around hoping the government remembers to give you rations this week. It's not about being pushed aside for a better cheaper labor. It's not about exploiting other people or screwing them over for personal gain. It's not about having laws or rules so that people can form tribes and fight each other for resources. It's not about owning things and only sharing it for gain. The motivation for it all is the people around you. You make your own life with your community, building upon the resources you have at hand. It deals with the abstract idea that people are human and want the same kind of dignity and respect as the next one. If they are shown the way that is good and simple they will follow. It has to come from the soul and your love of humanity as whole and the need to see it become something greater. It's very abstract if you're a greedy piece of shit who only cares about quick material gains, and can't be bothered to look at the world around you and realize that it's fucked up. But hey, it's not your problem. Those people are just lazy and dumb, or evil, it's not the systems fault. These problems have always been here. Greed is not a factor, I should tell them to get a job.

[QUOTE=RentAhobO;40885513]What is so hard to grasp about the idea of Anarchy or Communism. It's a dogma, a way of life and a societal mindset. One that teaches us that if we work together we can ALL reap the bounty of our work. It's not about sitting around hoping the government remembers to give you rations this week. It's not about being pushed aside for a better cheaper labor. It's not about exploiting other people or screwing them over for personal gain. It's not about having laws or rules so that people can form tribes and fight each other for resources. It's not about owning things and only sharing it for gain. The motivation for it all is the people around you. You make your own life with your community, building upon the resources you have at hand. It deals with the abstract idea that people are human and want the same kind of dignity and respect as the next one. If they are shown the way that is good and simple they will follow. It has to come from the soul and your love of humanity as whole and the need to see it become something greater. It's very abstract if you're a greedy piece of shit who only cares about quick material gains, and can't be bothered to look at the world around you and realize that it's fucked up. But hey, it's not your problem. Those people are just lazy and dumb, or evil, it's not the systems fault. These problems have always been here. Greed is not a factor, I should tell them to get a job.[/QUOTE] I take back what I said about Yawman being the one posting nothing but saccharine fluff. If you're not writing Hallmark giftcards, you're in he wrong line of work.

Communism/Anarchism working is about as likely as the different sects of Anarchist/Communist managing to agree on something. You want to join the Peoples Revolutionary Party? Ok, the only people we hate more than the Capitalists is the fucking Revolutionary Peoples Party, they are splitters and traitors.

[QUOTE=Mingebox;40885737]I take back what I said about Yawman being the one posting nothing but saccharine fluff. If you're not writing Hallmark giftcards, you're in he wrong line of work.[/QUOTE] What you said is a prime example of the kind of thinking capitalism endorses and thrives upon. There is no room for compassion, stick it on a card you hippie. Get a job and a haircut! It sounds cheesy because it's sincere. That's what it's all about man, real emotions. How humble I feel when I look at the Pyramids of Giza or any other ancient ruin for that matter. The kind of awe I feel when I snap out of the monotony of day to day existence, look up at the moon and stars and just feel insignificant. The same kind of optimism I feel when imagining future generations exploring those very same stars. That's what it should feel like. That's the motivation for me. It's not about the politics or who is right or wrong, it's about posterity and living a life that is worthy of existing. What are we leaving behind?

The problem isn't whether you're capitalist or communist or what have you (they're all shit, honestly, but that's another debate for another time) The problem is human greed. It's planted itself at the core of every attempt at an economy since we first came up with economics. And we've never managed to go in and root it out.

[QUOTE=Mechanical43;40875730]Wait. You think you are self-sufficient now? how delusional.[/QUOTE] Apparently you slept through the part of Eng 1 in high school that covered what italics means. Though, I could literally be fully self-sufficient if I had to be.

Communism? Anarchy? What the hell did this thread turn into? :v:

[QUOTE=RentAhobO;40885851]What you said is a prime example of the kind of thinking capitalism endorses and thrives upon. There is no room for compassion, stick it on a card you hippie. Get a job and a haircut! It sounds cheesy because it's sincere. That's what it's all about man, real emotions. How humble I feel when I look at the Pyramids of Giza or any other ancient ruin for that matter. The kind of awe I feel when I snap out of the monotony of day to day existence, look up at the moon and stars and just feel insignificant. The same kind of optimism I feel when imagining future generations exploring those very same stars. That's what it should feel like. That's the motivation for me. It's not about the politics or who is right or wrong, it's about posterity and living a life that is worthy of existing. What are we leaving behind?[/QUOTE] Pyramids of Giza? You mean that thing built by slaves as burial chambers for God-Kings?

[QUOTE=lavacano;40888394]The problem isn't whether you're capitalist or communist or what have you (they're all shit, honestly, but that's another debate for another time) The problem is human greed. It's planted itself at the core of every attempt at an economy since we first came up with economics. And we've never managed to go in and root it out.[/QUOTE] Whats the difference between "greed" and "rational self-interest"?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40892253]Whats the difference between "greed" and "rational self-interest"?[/QUOTE] I don't know, since selling crippled children to pedophiles could still be considered "rational self-interest"

[QUOTE=Mingebox;40892747]I don't know, since selling crippled children to pedophiles could still be considered "rational self-interest"[/QUOTE] I don't think that's legal though.

I think it's good the more influential nations call each over out over things. It keeps a balance between the good we hear from the governments with the bad we usually get watered down or forgotten about. [QUOTE=RentAhobO;40885513] It's very abstract if you're a greedy piece of shit who only cares about quick material gains [/QUOTE] Otherwise known as being human. In this fantastical utopia how are disputes over uses of resources handled? who gets the choice? Will everyone get a vote? that requires everyone to be learned in every trade to see the value in every idea they are asked to vote upon. How is education handled? does the community teach their own? this would just spread the same ideas generation to generation (See: Christian homeschooling) how do you combat a more popular/charismatic person convincing people to fund his idea over another or equal or greater value? If it is unavoidable, welcome to capitalism! You turned it from "I need to find and work for an individual who recognizes my skills to earn a living" into "To be a productive member of society I must rely upon society understanding my trade, however abstract or revolutionary it may be" No more can a visionary fund a project with a inventor. Ideas that do not appeal to the masses would be shot down by popular vote for ideas that yield a faster result despite flaws that are not obvious to those not versed in that industry. This awfully relies upon everyone losing individual free will and mindlessly working towards some "greater goal". Is losing free will (which slots you right into slavery to this anarchist goal) really worth the rewards which seem to be just getting enough to live and little more. Will personal feelings, ideologies, ambitions and rivalries also get in the way and ruin the dream? You fucking betcha they will.

People don't really have free will anyways.

[QUOTE=J!NX;40880473]Do you personally know any business owners?[/QUOTE] he is actually kind of right, there is a reason why the position of CEO tends to be almost a retirement. and the one that tends to do the real work is the VP.