[QUOTE=1/4 Life;39066361]Why is that a stupid question? Go test it yourself then. Open your favorite metro program with a touch screen only, and then do the same with a mouse and KB. Which let you open it faster?[/QUOTE]
I don't personally own a touchscreen thank you. I've used it loads down in the microsoft showroom, though. And what are you trying to prove? My point? That a touchscreen is better for some kinds of navigation? Because you'd be right.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39066375]So which part of:
Did I miss? You obviously didn't care to check up on anything, and now you're just dismissing it like you never said anything like it.[/QUOTE]
Can I retroactively re-word something? "The mouse was first released to the general public with an"
Or, better yet, I'm going to just come out and say all touchscreens are worthless because they were patented in the 1970s and served no purpose until recently. Obviously both devices were useless in day to day life until they were presented to the general public.
[editline]2nd January 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39066392]I don't personally own a touchscreen thank you. I've used it loads down in the microsoft showroom, though. And what are you trying to prove? My point? That a touchscreen is better for some kinds of navigation? Because you'd be right.[/QUOTE]
What kinds of navigation is it better for?
In order to make a ui item touchable it has to be large enough therefore you can't fit as many buttons on a touchscreen interface compared to a mouse one.
Touchscreens are more intuitive but who likes having finger grease all over their screen? (this is only really acceptable on a device small enough to wipe easily ie a phone or tablet)
[QUOTE=alien_guy;39066416]In order to make a ui item touchable it has to be large enough therefore you can't fit as many buttons on a touchscreen interface compared to a mouse one.
Touchscreens are more intuitive but who likes having finger grease all over their screen?[/QUOTE]
More intuitive also means more human error though. You have less control for zoom % and scroll position if you're touching it rather than using a mouse.
[QUOTE=1/4 Life;39066431]More intuitive also means more human error though. You have less control for zoom & and scroll position if you're touching it rather than using a mouse.[/QUOTE]
I'd go as far as to say you have less control over everything. It's just not as precise as a mouse.
[QUOTE=1/4 Life;39066394]Can I retroactively re-word something? "The mouse was first released to the general public with an"
Or, better yet, I'm going to just come out and say all touchscreens are worthless because they were patented in the 1970s and served no purpose until recently.
[editline]2nd January 2013[/editline]
What kinds of navigation is it better for?[/QUOTE]
Well, the difference is that I never argued that the mouse is useless in any way - I'm arguing that without the right advancements in GUIs it would be. On the other hand you're arguing that touchscreens are totally useless, no matter how much time we give them. That's where we differ, I'd never say that the mouse isn't one of - or the - most important developement in user input since ever. Stop acting like I'm at the total opposite of the spectrum just to make me seem silly, because it's not true at all.
And I've already said what kind of navigation it's better for, don't ask just for the sake of it. Go check it out yourself, it's the best way to learn new stuff.
Actually, let me just point something out for the sake of it. I'm pretty sure that touchscreens have been around for some time, but obviously the first (resistive) ones were fairly useless. The funny thing is, Microsoft's first effort to include touchscreens was with Windows XP, some 12 years ago, but we obviously know how that turned out. How long did it take from the first mouse-oriented product to the first successful one? 'Bout 10 years, and if we include the iPad and so on, it'd actually be 10 years from the first effort to the first touch-oriented computer. Even less if we take the iPhone into the equation.
[QUOTE=1/4 Life;39066431]More intuitive also means more human error though. [B]You have less control for zoom % and scroll position if you're touching it rather than using a mouse.[/B][/QUOTE]
Thats just plain incorrect.
My fingers have much greater fine accuracy than the movement of my hand.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39066448]Well, the difference is that I never argued that the mouse is useless in any way - I'm arguing that without the right advancements in GUIs it would be. On the other hand you're arguing that touchscreens are totally useless, no matter how much time we give them. That's where we differ, I'd never say that the mouse isn't one of - or the - most important developement in user input since ever. Stop acting like I'm at the total opposite of the spectrum just to make me seem silly, because it's not true at all.
And I've already said what kind of navigation it's better for, don't ask just for the sake of it. Go check it out yourself, it's the best way to learn new stuff.[/QUOTE]
Are you going to imply that I've never used a touch screen device now? They work for phones and tablets because there's not enough physical real estate for any other form of input. On a desktop where you have LOTS of room for input devices; they are useless.
And yes, because you've never answered why. Every reason put up in this thread has been countered.
[editline]2nd January 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=alien_guy;39066453]Thats just plain incorrect.
My fingers have vastly more fine accuracy than the movement of my hand.[/QUOTE]
Care to prove that? Mice are variable input; your big nasty fingers aren't.
[QUOTE=1/4 Life;39066473]Are you going to imply that I've never used a touch screen device now? They work for phones and tablets because there's not enough physical real estate for any other form of input. On a desktop where you have LOTS of room for input devices; they are useless.
And yes, because you've never answered why. Every reason put up in this thread has been countered.
[editline]2nd January 2013[/editline]
Care to prove that? Mice are variable input; your big nasty fingers aren't.[/QUOTE]
You're still talking about desktops? Let me quote myself and scold you for your kindergarten level of reading comprehension:
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39066082]I'm arguing laptops, not desktops. I'm pretty sure that I specified that. I won't defend touchscreens on desktops, I haven't found them particularly helpful.[/QUOTE]
So have we actually agreed all along?
And stop assuming that every one has sausages for fingers just because you have it. If you get grease on your touch-enabled device every time you use it, stop eating chips and doritos all the time.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39066448]
And I've already said what kind of navigation it's better for, don't ask just for the sake of it. Go check it out yourself, it's the best way to learn new stuff.
Actually, let me just point something out for the sake of it. I'm pretty sure that touchscreens have been around for some time, but obviously the first (resistive) ones were fairly useless. The funny thing is, Microsoft's first effort to include touchscreens was with [B]Windows XP[/B], some 12 years ago, but we obviously know how that turned out. How long did it take from the first mouse-oriented product to the first successful one? 'Bout 10 years, and if we include the iPad and so on, it'd actually be 10 years from the first effort to the first touch-oriented computer. Even less if we take the iPhone into the equation.[/QUOTE]
Ok... What kind of PC related navigation is it better for?
Windows Mobile actually, though you are correct it was 12 years ago. I still have a Pocket PC from 2002 or so.
[QUOTE=Stopper;39066501]Ok... What kind of PC related navigation is it better for?
Windows Mobile actually, though you are correct it was 12 years ago. I still have a Pocket PC from 2002 or so.[/QUOTE]
Wouldn't it be Windows CE and not mobile? I don't think Windows Mobile was touch-enabled.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39066498]You're still talking about desktops? Let me quote myself and scold you for your kindergarten level of reading comprehension:
So have we actually agreed all along?[/QUOTE]
We have not. A laptop still has the same amount of physical real estate. You're presented a screen, a keyboard, and a mouse (Albeit a flattened one).
So again, without question dodging, what purpose does a touch screen serve on a desktop or laptop that their keyboard and mice don't already do better?
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39066514]Wouldn't it be Windows CE and not mobile? I don't think Windows Mobile was touch-enabled.[/QUOTE]
Nope, Windows Mobile.
Read up if want to:
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Mobile[/url]
[QUOTE=1/4 Life;39066515]We have not. A laptop still has the same amount of physical real estate. You're presented a screen, a keyboard, and a mouse (Albeit a flattened one).
So again, without question dodging, what purpose does a touch screen serve on a desktop or laptop that their keyboard and mice don't already do better?[/QUOTE]
Touch loses simply because it has no tactile feedback.
There's other reasons too, but fuck them. No tactile feedback = shit.
[QUOTE=1/4 Life;39066515]We have not. A laptop still has the same amount of physical real estate. You're presented a screen, a keyboard, and a mouse (Albeit a flattened one).
So again, without question dodging, what purpose does a touch screen serve on a desktop or laptop that their keyboard and mice don't already do better?[/QUOTE]
Oh. My. Fucking. God. The funny thing is that you answered your own question:
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39066392]I don't personally own a touchscreen thank you. I've used it loads down in the microsoft showroom, though. And what are you trying to prove? My point? That a touchscreen is better for some kinds of navigation? Because you'd be right.[/QUOTE]
"What would you rather use to navigate Windows 8?" was the question (pretty much). And yeah, I'd probably prefer a touchscreen for the Metro environment, but I've already explained my position on this. So yeah, that kind of navigating. Not navigating the desktop, but the kind of navigation you'll find all over the metro environment.
[editline]2nd January 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Stopper;39066531]Nope, Windows Mobile.
Read up if want to:
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Mobile[/url][/QUOTE]
The article you're quoting mentions Windows CE before the mobile family, and it cites pen support. I'd say that means that CE was the first Microsoft product with touch support. Still, I was rather referring to the tablets of the XP era: [img]http://geekswithblogs.net/images/geekswithblogs_net/james/ballmer_500x387.jpg[/img]
[editline]2nd January 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;39066546]Touch loses simply because it has no tactile feedback.
There's other reasons too, but fuck them. No tactile feedback = shit.[/QUOTE]
Tactile feedback is definitely very nice, but can't we have both? Maybe I should mention that I'm a supporter of laptop hybrids, rather tablets only. Tactile feedback from the keyboard is very important for the typing experience, which is why I'd prefer a hybrid rather than a touch-only. The typing experience is simply not up to par.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39066555]Oh. My. Fucking. God. The funny thing is that you answered your own question:
"What would you rather use to navigate Windows 8?" was the question (pretty much). And yeah, I'd probably prefer a touchscreen for the Metro environment, but I've already explained my position on this. So yeah, that kind of navigating. Not navigating the desktop, but the kind of navigation you'll find all over the metro environment..[/QUOTE]
Care to explain how I answered my own question?
And what does that exactly entail? A KB/Mouse will navigate that same UI faster, so why do you prefer the touch screen?
[QUOTE=1/4 Life;39066678]Care to explain how I answered my own question?
And what does that exactly entail? A KB/Mouse will navigate that same UI faster, so why do you prefer the touch screen?[/QUOTE]
Why would a mouse and keyboard be better for navigating the Metro environment? And why would I want to navigate the desktop with a touch screen?
I think you're missing the fact that I want [I]hybrids[/I]. [B][I]HYBRIDS.[/I][/B] You know, not only KB/mouse, but also a touchscreen. I'll use the touchscreen when it's convenient and the KB/mouse when it's convenient.
Again I'll refer to the Dell XPS 12 (since I have personally used it):
[img_thumb]http://cdn-static.zdnet.com/i/story/70/00/003484/xps-duo-12-convertible.jpg[/img_thumb]
It's a really nice piece of hardware (and for the price it should be), and you don't have to compromise. You don't have to exclusively use the touchscreen, like you don't have to choose between a mouse or a keyboard on a laptop, for some arbitrary reason. Can you really not wrap your head around that concept? Because it's really a great concept.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39066757]Why would a mouse and keyboard be better for navigating the Metro environment? And why would I want to navigate the desktop with a touch screen?
I think you're missing the fact that I want [I]hybrids[/I]. [B][I]HYBRIDS.[/I][/B] You know, not only KB/mouse, but also a touchscreen. I'll use the touchscreen when it's convenient and the KB/mouse when it's convenient.
Again I'll refer to the Dell XPS 12 (since I have personally used it):
[img_thumb]http://cdn-static.zdnet.com/i/story/70/00/003484/xps-duo-12-convertible.jpg[/img_thumb]
It's a really nice piece of hardware (and for the price it should be), and you don't have to compromise. You don't have to exclusively use the touchscreen, like you don't have to choose between a mouse or a keyboard on a laptop, for some arbitrary reason. Can you really not wrap your head around that concept? Because it's really a great concept.[/QUOTE]
Why is the touchscreen useful though? What does it do that the keyboard and mouse didn't already do?
What does the touchscreen being there allow you to do faster? More precisely?
Why waste money on it in the first place?
[QUOTE=1/4 Life;39066777]Why is the touchscreen useful though? What does it do that the keyboard and mouse didn't already do?
What does the touchscreen being there allow you to do faster? More precisely?[/QUOTE]
You've been asking this question forever and I even stated it in my post. I really can't do much more to help you with it, just go try it out and tell me it's not natural. How about games like Angry Birds? You may say that it's a typical touch screen and that's why it doesn't work well on the desktop/laptop, but in reality games like it have existed on the desktop for years, they're just not nearly as enjoyable. And before you belittle this, you said you wanted an example, and if zooming and scrolling don't do it for you, this is a bit more palpable.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39066805]You've been asking this question forever and I even stated it in my post. I really can't do much more to help you with it, just go try it out and tell me it's not natural. How about games like Angry Birds? You may say that it's a typical touch screen and that's why it doesn't work well on the desktop/laptop, but in reality games like it have existed on the desktop for years, they're just not nearly as enjoyable. And before you belittle this, you said you wanted an example, and if zooming and scrolling don't do it for you, this is a bit more palpable.[/QUOTE]
Have you played the angry birds PC game? I actually prefer it. It's easier to copy shots that way. On a touch screen it's a lot harder to play.
[QUOTE=1/4 Life;39066777]Why is the touchscreen useful though? What does it do that the keyboard and mouse didn't already do?
What does the touchscreen being there allow you to do faster? More precisely?
Why waste money on it in the first place?[/QUOTE]
It's easier to use quickly without pulling out a mouse and keyboard.
It's easier to use in a confined space where you can't use a mouse.
It's easier for a lot of stuff.
[QUOTE=SataniX;39066847]It's easier to use quickly without pulling out a mouse and keyboard.
It's easier to use in a confined space where you can't use a mouse.
It's easier for a lot of stuff.[/QUOTE]
Is your laptop's KB/Mouse broken? Why do you have to 'pull out' a keyboard and mouse?
Are you mistaken for tablets, which this argument is obviously moot to?
How is a confined space a problem if you're using a laptop? What kind of confined space exists where a laptop can be used but not it's keyboard or mouse?
Do you have a physical handicap of some kind?
[QUOTE=1/4 Life;39066821]Have you played the angry birds PC game? I actually prefer it. It's easier to copy shots that way. On a touch screen it's a lot harder to play.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough, if you prefer it on the PC, I won't say you're wrong. I'll say that you're an anomaly, but that doesn't mean you're wrong. And yes, I have played it on the PC, otherwise I wouldn't even cite. But maybe I just haven't used it enough? Maybe I'm just saying it's for touchscreens because of the way it looks? But no, that'd just be silly.
[editline]2nd January 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=1/4 Life;39066913]Is your laptop's KB/Mouse broken? Why do you have to 'pull out' a keyboard and mouse?
Are you mistaken for tablets, which this argument is obviously moot to?
How is a confined space a problem if you're using a laptop? What kind of confined space exists where a laptop can be used but not it's keyboard or mouse?
Do you have a physical handicap of some kind?[/QUOTE]
I love how you ask for a reason why touchscreens are superior in some situations then assumes that the person is handicapped and that the point is moot. But how about on a train? A bus? A car? Oftentimes you'll have limited space, or maybe you'll have a hard time resting your laptop on anything - then you'll appreciate a touchscreen.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39066923]Fair enough, if you prefer it on the PC, I won't say you're wrong. I'll say that you're an anomaly, but that doesn't mean you're wrong. And yes, I have played it on the PC, otherwise I wouldn't even cite. But maybe I just haven't used it enough? Maybe I'm just saying it's for touchscreens because of the way it looks? But no, that'd just be silly.
[editline]2nd January 2013[/editline]
I love how you ask for a reason why touchscreens are superior in some situations then assumes that the person is handicapped and that the point is moot. But how about on a train? A bus? A car? Oftentimes you'll have limited space, or maybe you'll have a hard time resting your laptop on anything - then you'll appreciate a touchscreen.[/QUOTE]
If you can unfold a laptop and set it on your lap, how can you not have enough room to use it's keyboard and touch pad? The point is his argument is incredibly flawed.
[QUOTE=1/4 Life;39066913]Is your laptop's KB/Mouse broken? Why do you have to 'pull out' a keyboard and mouse?
Are you mistaken for tablets, which this argument is obviously moot to?
How is a confined space a problem if you're using a laptop? What kind of confined space exists where a laptop can be used but not it's keyboard or mouse?
Do you have a physical handicap of some kind?[/QUOTE]
Touchscreen is easier to use than trackpad though. Trackpads are imo terrible and any other input device beats them. I'd rather use a 360 gamepad to move my mouse instead of the trackpad.
Maybe just me but I hate when I have to use my laptop without a mouse.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39066555]Tactile feedback is definitely very nice, but can't we have both? Maybe I should mention that I'm a supporter of laptop hybrids, rather tablets only. Tactile feedback from the keyboard is very important for the typing experience, which is why I'd prefer a hybrid rather than a touch-only. The typing experience is simply not up to par.[/QUOTE]
That still doesn't make the touchscreen have tactile feedback. All it does is make the machine more expensive, and adds to the weight because of extra components.
How does that make it non shit?
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;39066982]That still doesn't make the touchscreen have tactile feedback. All it does is make the machine more expensive, and adds to the weight because of extra components.
How does that make it non shit?[/QUOTE]
Why would it need tactile feedback when you have a physical keyboard? It's like you think of the dumbest argument out of all the ones you could make, and then post it because why not.
[editline]2nd January 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=1/4 Life;39066974]If you can unfold a laptop and set it on your lap, how can you not have enough room to use it's keyboard and touch pad? The point is his argument is incredibly flawed.[/QUOTE]
You wouldn't have to fold it out with a hybrid? And there's a difference between having space in the air, and actual space where you'd be able to place the laptop. What if you're standing up, holding the laptop with your hands? It's pretty impossible to use a laptop in that way, but it wouldn't be a problem with a hybrid.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39067003]Why would it need tactile feedback when you have a physical keyboard? It's like you think of the dumbest argument out of all the ones you could make, and then post it because why not.[/QUOTE]
Why would you need a touchscreen when you have a fully functional mouse and keyboard?
You're the one who proposed the hybrid.
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;39067052]Why would you need a touchscreen when you have a fully functional mouse and keyboard?
You're the one who proposed the hybrid.[/QUOTE]
There's a difference between "I need" and "It's pretty nice, I'd like one". I don't [I]need[/I] a mouse, but it's damn nice addition. I don't [I]need[/I] anything faster than a Pentium II, but it's a damn nice addition. I could go on.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39067072]There's a difference between "I need" and "It's pretty nice, I'd like one". I don't [I]need[/I] a mouse, but it's damn nice addition. I don't [I]need[/I] anything faster than a Pentium II, but it's a damn nice addition. I could go on.[/QUOTE]
Try running anything newer than vanilla WinXP on a PII, I fucking dare you.
[editline]You're starting to sound like a broken vinyl player[/editline]
You don't need clothes, but they're a nice addition.
You don't need prepared & cooked food, but it's nice to have.
You don't need more than a small cave or a hollow tree trunk instead of a house, but it would be nice.
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