I still use Vista :Colbert:
[editline]6th January 2013[/editline]
My girlfriend's laptop h Windows 8. I need her help to use it, makes me feel like an old man
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;39115609][url=http://icomputerdenver.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/windows-8-desktop.png]ive got some bad news slick[/url]
[editline]6th January 2013[/editline]
oh and for the second bit:
windows7: press start key, type ccleaner, press enter, ccleaner opens on desktop
windows8: press start key, type ccleaner, press enter, ccleaner opens on desktop
i dont notice any functional difference[/QUOTE]
Ok now try to have more then 2 windows open at once in mentro.
Ok you want to open a file that has an odd naming convention like ArtForts1832AVer_112234.exe and its in a specific folder,in the good old windows you can just open the start menu and copy the name down because you have the name in the desktop in front of you. With Metro , it covers the whole screen so you're forced to remember the name or you have to ctrl+c the name and copy it in.
[QUOTE=dark soul;39115790]Ok now try to have more then 2 windows open at once in mentro.
Ok you want to open a file that has an odd naming convention like ArtForts1832AVer_112234.exe and its in a specific folder,in the good old windows you can just open the start menu and copy the name down because you have the name in the desktop in front of you. With Metro , it covers the whole screen so you're forced to remember the name or you have to ctrl+c the name and copy it in.[/QUOTE]
I'd copy and paste the name, anyway. That doesn't sound like a big deal, anyway.
[QUOTE=dark soul;39115790]Ok now try to have more then 2 windows open at once in mentro.[/QUOTE]
Drag one app to one side of the screen and it will have a smaller window open. Then proceed to open another metro app.
[QUOTE=dark soul;39115790]Ok now try to have more then 2 windows open at once in mentro.
Ok you want to open a file that has an odd naming convention like ArtForts1832AVer_112234.exe and its in a specific folder,in the good old windows you can just open the start menu and copy the name down because you have the name in the desktop in front of you. With Metro , it covers the whole screen so you're forced to remember the name or you have to ctrl+c the name and copy it in.[/QUOTE]
oh metro apps are terrible i just use desktop apps, its not like i wasnt using irfanview and media player classic home cinema in 7 already
and if the file has odd naming conventions like that i would have copy + pasted it in 7 into windows explorer anyway or had a shortcut on my desktop but i guess thats just a personal difference so ymmv i guess
[editline]6th January 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zet;39115829]Drag one app to one side of the screen and it will have a smaller window open. Then proceed to open another metro app.[/QUOTE]
waste of time
[QUOTE=dark soul;39115522]I don't need any citation to tell you that not being able to have multiple windows open at the same time is a bad idea, Or how about the fact that you have to switch between the horrible Metro interface and the desktop whenever you want to go find a program. You can only have one or the other open at a time,Honestly they should have just called it Window 8.[/QUOTE]
Well, I have to change between the program I'm using and the start menu as well. Come on - you can't use both the start menu and something else at the same time; it's simply not possible. I don't know whether you guys have trouble concentrating or something, but I personally am not annoyed by going into the start menu. It takes barely any time, and it's not like it's often.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39111711]Used it since the DP was released, bought it a few months ago. Even though you guys hate it, I think "buyer's remorse" is a worse argument than "You probably haven't used it". It was $15 to most people, I bought it for $40 since I really didn't want to bother with the other stuff. If you think that's enough money to warrant reality twisting "Buyer's remorse", you're a poor guy.[/QUOTE]
I also bought it during the promotional period at £24.99. After using it for a month, I really wish I hadn't wasted my money.
Metro apps are incredibly over-simplified to the point where you may as well use the non-Metro app if you want to get things done, e.g. Skype.
The fact that the start screen, specifically the search function, takes up the whole screen really annoys me because all my focus is taken away from what I was doing and is now directed towards this over-sized and bloated screen that worked incredibly well in Windows 7, where it took up less screen estate and not more for the sake of using more.
Also, whenever I turned off my computer, annoyingly through a settings menu, and then turned it back on, Windows 8 would automatically log me in to the account that was used the last. Why?
If I was on a touch-based device, I would understand the existence of these functions because [B]they make sense on a portable touch-screen device.[/B] Where they don't make sense is on a regular desktop PC, where I found Windows 8 to be very cumbersome and unfocussed.
[QUOTE=Dr Bob;39116913]I also bought it during the promotional period at £24.99. After using it for a month, I really wish I hadn't wasted my money.
Metro apps are incredibly over-simplified to the point where you may as well use the non-Metro app if you want to get things done, e.g. Skype.
The fact that the start screen, specifically the search function, takes up the whole screen really annoys me because all my focus is taken away from what I was doing and is now directed towards this over-sized and bloated screen that worked incredibly well in Windows 7, where it took up less screen estate and not more for the sake of using more.
Also, whenever I turned off my computer, annoyingly through a settings menu, and then turned it back on, Windows 8 would automatically log me in to the account that was used the last. Why?
If I was on a touch-based device, I would understand the existence of these functions because [B]they make sense on a portable touch-screen device.[/B] Where they don't make sense is on a regular desktop PC, where I found Windows 8 to be very cumbersome and unfocussed.[/QUOTE]
Well, don't use Metro apps. I use the music player, maps and maybe "Travelplan" (that's a danish public transport planner, use it if you ever go to Denmark).
Well, I personally don't understand why it annoys you. If you're using searching anyway, there's nothing else to focus on - whether it's full screen or in a little box.
I personally don't use multiple accounts, but I can understand why it'd be annoying. Let's hope they fix that in Windows Blue.
And about the money stuff - I'm not in dire need of money, and while I often regret using money for needless stuff (e.g. steam sales), there's a difference between saying "well, fuck it" and "buyer's remorse syndrome". One is a reality-twisting condition, the other is saying "damn, shucks".
And why has nobody whipped up that list of arguments that were presented earlier in this thread, yet? Shouldn't be much of a problem since there's supposedly so many.
It's just hard to find things you don't remember the name of. You'd have to go trough pages upon pages of huge massive fucking icons instead of scrolling trough a list of folders that honestly isn't that large.
[QUOTE=mobrockers2;39117420]It's just hard to find things you don't remember the name of. You'd have to go trough pages upon pages of huge massive fucking icons instead of scrolling trough a list of folders that honestly isn't that large.[/QUOTE]
Not really.
First of all you can pin whatever program you need to the start, and there's a lot more space than in the old one.
Second, search is practically the same. If you don't know the exact name, just write "Network" or whatever and you'l probably find it. Or go to the control panel.
In "All Programs" there's a title for all program groups. Sure, it gets a bit crowded in there when it's not collapsed - and I hope they change that in Windows Blue - but it's not as big a problem as you're making it out to be. At all.
[QUOTE=dark soul;39107651]Glad to hear.Windows 8 is horrible for anyone that actually uses their computer for work.[/QUOTE]
Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. My productivity has massively improved to the point where it's a chore to use my old Windows 7 desktop over my 8 laptop.
(It took about a week or two to acclimate, before that my productivity on 8 was lower)
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39117629]Not really.
First of all you can pin whatever program you need to the start, and there's a lot more space than in the old one.
Second, search is practically the same. If you don't know the exact name, just write "Network" or whatever and you'l probably find it. Or go to the control panel.
In "All Programs" there's a title for all program groups. Sure, it gets a bit crowded in there when it's not collapsed - and I hope they change that in Windows Blue - but it's not as big a problem as you're making it out to be. At all.[/QUOTE]
I'm not going to pin programs to start that I don't use every day. I'm talking about obscure programs that I can not remember the name of.
[QUOTE=The golden;39115521]Oh yes because the window I want to display my programs/functions I desire to cover my entire screen with huge buttons which are so big I have to scroll to get to my desired program.
[B]The pop-up menu in the corner is used because there really isn't any other option to it. Pretty much every single PC operating system uses some from of corner pop-up menu. All the varying Linux desktops, Mac, Windows - they all do it.[/B]
Metro is a new way of managing a program menu and that's great, but that isn't the problem. The problem is that it is forced. Most Linux DE's and Mac (I believe) let you use either/both a fullscreen menu or a pop-up menu.
The entire problem would be fixed if they added a way for a user to switch back to the standard startmenu. But let me ask you something - what would be the point of Win8 if they did that? When I think Win8 I think A) A new in-OS store, and B) A tablet-based interface. Gee, I wonder why Win8 is getting a bad rep.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://i.flubbernugget.eu/menu.png[/IMG]
:wink:
if microsoft wanted a start menu that worked well with a mouse they would be using a similar setup
[editline]6th January 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Darkimmortal;39117647]Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. My productivity has massively improved to the point where it's a chore to use my old Windows 7 desktop over my 8 laptop.
(It took about a week or two to acclimate, before that my productivity on 8 was lower)[/QUOTE]
Subjective. If the run prompt worked well in windows I'd be using that to launch most applications in Win8.
Windows 8 doesn't provide any 'productivity' tools other than the new administration features which are rather neat
[QUOTE=mobrockers2;39117858]I'm not going to pin programs to start that I don't use every day. I'm talking about obscure programs that I can not remember the name of.[/QUOTE]
Well, why not? It's one of the improvements on the original start menu - if you're not using a program often, but still want easy access to it, just pin it. It's not going to clog up your start menu, because it's going to be all the way to the right, but you can still find it easily. There's no reason to search for stuff that is already pinned. I understand you don't like the new start screen if you don't actually utilize it properly. You have to treat the start menu and start screen differently, you know.
[editline]6th January 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;39117958][IMG]http://i.flubbernugget.eu/menu.png[/IMG]
:wink:
if microsoft wanted a start menu that worked well with a mouse they would be using a similar setup
[/QUOTE]
I must say that even though it's subjective, I've always found such menus to be shit. If you think it's hard to find the "shut down", try finding something in a menu like that. It just seems obfuscated to me.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39118024]Well, why not? It's one of the improvements on the original start menu - if you're not using a program often, but still want easy access to it, just pin it. It's not going to clog up your start menu, because it's going to be all the way to the right, but you can still find it easily. There's no reason to search for stuff that is already pinned. I understand you don't like the new start screen if you don't actually utilize it properly. You have to treat the start menu and start screen differently, you know.
[editline]6th January 2013[/editline]
I must say that even though it's subjective, I've always found such menus to be shit. If you think it's hard to find the "shut down", try finding something in a menu like that. It just seems obfuscated to me.[/QUOTE]
Why does shut down have to be bound to a menu button?
[editline]6th January 2013[/editline]
are people too inept to use keystrokes?
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39118024]Well, why not? It's one of the improvements on the original start menu - if you're not using a program often, but still want easy access to it, just pin it. It's not going to clog up your start menu, because it's going to be all the way to the right, but you can still find it easily. There's no reason to search for stuff that is already pinned. I understand you don't like the new start screen if you don't actually utilize it properly. You have to treat the start menu and start screen differently, you know.
[editline]6th January 2013[/editline]
I must say that even though it's subjective, I've always found such menus to be shit. If you think it's hard to find the "shut down", try finding something in a menu like that. It just seems obfuscated to me.[/QUOTE]
The location of "Shut Down" in the menu is different from how the Menu works.
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;39118038]Why does shut down have to be bound to a menu button?
[editline]6th January 2013[/editline]
are people too inept to use keystrokes?[/QUOTE]
You can still use keystrokes to shut down? I might be missing something, and I'm not arguing about the placement of the shut down button. I'm not annoyed by it, but many new users will have trouble finding it.
I simply argued that that kind of menu requires many more clicks and precise movements to operate. You and me may not have much trouble with it, but it's not very friendly towards old people, and people with shit mice (like my dad).
[editline]6th January 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=danharibo;39118041]The location of "Shut Down" in the menu is different from how the Menu works.[/QUOTE]
I may just be legally retarded, but I don't understand what you're writing here. Could you expand a bit on it?
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39118104]You can still use keystrokes to shut down? I might be missing something, and I'm not arguing about the placement of the shut down button. I'm not annoyed by it, but many new users will have trouble finding it.
I simply argued that that kind of menu requires many more clicks and precise movements to operate. You and me may not have much trouble with it, but it's not very friendly towards old people, and people with shit mice (like my dad).
[editline]6th January 2013[/editline]
I may just be legally retarded, but I don't understand what you're writing here. Could you expand a bit on it?[/QUOTE]
*box style menus are not hard to navigate, at all. Unless you're really simple, that is
if it's hard to read then make it bigger
[editline]6th January 2013[/editline]
and how is it not friendly to old people? it's about as WYSIWYG as it gets.
Or...
We could all do this:
[url]http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/2012/06/25/how-to-add-a-shut-down-button-to-windows-8/[/url]
Taking advantage of Windows' customisable interface, and all live happily ever after.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39118104]You can still use keystrokes to shut down? I might be missing something, and I'm not arguing about the placement of the shut down button. I'm not annoyed by it, but many new users will have trouble finding it.
I simply argued that that kind of menu requires many more clicks and precise movements to operate. You and me may not have much trouble with it, but it's not very friendly towards old people, and people with shit mice (like my dad).
[editline]6th January 2013[/editline]
I may just be legally retarded, but I don't understand what you're writing here. Could you expand a bit on it?[/QUOTE]
You're saying you couldn't find the Shut Down button, but the location of the button in the menu tree has nothing to do with how well the menu works with a Mouse.
The Shut Down button could be at the top level menu, or it could be under "System -> Power -> Shut Down -> Power Off", it's just a matter of choosing a sensible location.
[QUOTE=danharibo;39118194]You're saying you couldn't find the Shut Down button, but the location of the button in the menu tree has nothing to do with how well the menu works with a Mouse.
The Shut Down button could be at the top level menu, or it could be under "System -> Power -> Shut Down -> Power Off", it's just a matter of choosing a sensible location.[/QUOTE]
That style of menu is all about choosing what you want and where, after all. You could choose not to use a menu entry at all, and just hit ctrl-alt-backspace and click shutdown from whichever login manager you use.
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;39118134]*box style menus are not hard to navigate, at all. Unless you're really simple, that is
if it's hard to read then make it bigger
[editline]6th January 2013[/editline]
and how is it not friendly to old people? it's about as WYSIWYG as it gets.[/QUOTE]
Well, this is simply about size. I have trouble maneuvering the context menus in open office on my touchpad (which has begun to suck quite a lot lately), and old people with weak eyes and generally fairly bad motor skills [I]will[/I] have trouble using one of those menus. It's also quite often a bit hard to figure out where everything goes, since you're trying to put everything in as few categories as possible. Why is "print" and "Printer settings" under "File", when both interact very differently from other settings in the menu? Why is "Hyperlink" under "Edit"? Lots of these make no sense at all, and while you may say that this comes down to it not being done properly, in the end it's really an inherent problem with hierarchical menus - you have to put lots of stuff under one title, and often it's quite hard to make sense of.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39118024]Well, why not? It's one of the improvements on the original start menu - if you're not using a program often, but still want easy access to it, just pin it. It's not going to clog up your start menu, because it's going to be all the way to the right, but you can still find it easily. There's no reason to search for stuff that is already pinned. I understand you don't like the new start screen if you don't actually utilize it properly. You have to treat the start menu and start screen differently, you know.[/QUOTE]
Because I have almost a thousand things that I may or may not be using at any given time.
I can randomly pin shit to the start screen, but I'm going to run into things that I need to run that aren't going to be there on a daily basis no matter what I do. Then I have to scroll through page after page of other shit to find the shit that I need. If it was hierarchical I could actually find shit in a couple of seconds. As is, you have no easy way of knowing what folder level you are at, or even which subfolders you are actually in if it's a particularly large one.
I just don't get it. Every time this gets brought up, people like you say that I should just pin things to the start screen so I can utilize it. In other words "You're using it wrong." What part of, "that doesn't bloody goddam work for everyone" isn't registering?
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39118210]Well, this is simply about size. I have trouble maneuvering the context menus in open office on my touchpad (which has begun to suck quite a lot lately), and old people with weak eyes and generally fairly bad motor skills [I]will[/I] have trouble using one of those menus. It's also quite often a bit hard to figure out where everything goes, since you're trying to put everything in as few categories as possible. Why is "print" and "Printer settings" under "File", when both interact very differently from other settings in the menu? Why is "Hyperlink" under "Edit"? Lots of these make no sense at all, and while you may say that this comes down to it not being done properly, in the end it's really an inherent problem with hierarchical menus - you have to put lots of stuff under one title, and often it's quite hard to make sense of.[/QUOTE]
um
no you don't
there are plenty of applications that automatically map the menus for you with optimal usage ease, most distributions even ship with them
and having bad motor skills won't affect your ability to use a menu like this, what.
[editline]6th January 2013[/editline]
I mean it's really not hard just to click Administration and choose a category
how many could there be for the average user?
[QUOTE=danharibo;39118194]You're saying you couldn't find the Shut Down button, but the location of the button in the menu tree has nothing to do with how well the menu works with a Mouse.
The Shut Down button could be at the top level menu, or it could be under "System -> Power -> Shut Down -> Power Off", it's just a matter of choosing a sensible location.[/QUOTE]
Nope, I can find the button just fine, but other people have complained about it being hidden fairly well. My argument was about how hierarchical menus are just as good at hiding stuff.
Other people have argued about whether it takes more movement and clicks to find the power button - in a hierarchical menu you will have many small movements and clicks to go through, and that's not nice to old people.
the use of any operating system should not be based solely around whatever menu you use, that's pretty dumb in itself
you have a keyboard for a reason, jeez
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;39118230]um
no you don't
there are plenty of applications that automatically map the menus for you with optimal usage ease, most distributions even ship with them
and having bad motor skills won't affect your ability to use a menu like this, what.
[editline]6th January 2013[/editline]
I mean it's really not hard just to click Administration and choose a category
how many could there be for the average user?[/QUOTE]
It will? A shit mouse will as well. You have to hit some small boxes, imprecise movements and a shitty mouse will make it much harder.
[editline]6th January 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;39118251]the use of any operating system should not be based solely around whatever menu you use, that's pretty dumb in itself
you have a keyboard for a reason, jeez[/QUOTE]
Are you arguing everybody should just learn every key combination ever? That's pretty naive, and the learning curve would be nearly vertical.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39118210]Well, this is simply about size. I have trouble maneuvering the context menus in open office on my touchpad (which has begun to suck quite a lot lately), and old people with weak eyes and generally fairly bad motor skills [I]will[/I] have trouble using one of those menus. It's also quite often a bit hard to figure out where everything goes, since you're trying to put everything in as few categories as possible. Why is "print" and "Printer settings" under "File", when both interact very differently from other settings in the menu? Why is "Hyperlink" under "Edit"? Lots of these make no sense at all, and while you may say that this comes down to it not being done properly, in the end it's really an inherent problem with hierarchical menus - you have to put lots of stuff under one title, and often it's quite hard to make sense of.[/QUOTE]
I maintain that office ribbons are poorly implemented because of schizophrenic design decisions. They have no uniform pattern, and the sizes are completely random.
You want ribbons done correctly? Look at how Autodesk does them. I don't have extensive experience beyond autocad, but all the ribbons in there are dynamically scalable, provide useful icons of a consistent size, and have flyouts providing additional options if needed. On top of that, each tool has a flyout giving brief instructions with visual aids about what it does and how to use it. Have a 1900x1080 monitor? Cool. You get more buttons without having to click for submenus. Have a 1024x768 monitor? Cool, you have submenus and all the buttons are still there.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39118262]It will? A shit mouse will as well. You have to hit some small boxes, imprecise movements and a shitty mouse will make it much harder.
[editline]6th January 2013[/editline]
Are you arguing everybody should just learn every key combination ever? That's pretty naive, and the learning curve would be nearly vertical.[/QUOTE]
how would it?
it's not hard to read the manual for whichever system you are using
there's also the choice of multiple menus for some things, like windows implements in the task bar
[editline]6th January 2013[/editline]
If you want an operating system for people that are unable, then use the accessibility features present in most including windows
[editline]6th January 2013[/editline]
you really aren't making sense, why would you make the experience worse for the able just because you don't want the unable to use slightly bigger icons or whatever
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39118104]I simply argued that that kind of menu requires many more clicks and precise movements to operate. You and me may not have much trouble with it, but it's not very friendly towards old people, and people with shit mice (like my dad).
[/QUOTE]
They're slow to operate regardless of how adept at mouse movements you are
Even as an osu! player I hate that kind of menu
[editline]1[/editline]
With that kind of menu you have to choose between:
- Hover for x ms, increasing delay
- Click, risking twitching mouse off menu option (more applicable to high sens on low friction)
- Instant display, spammy menus everywhere as you move your mouse over it
None of them are good options
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