And I'm not so sure these kind of boxes require precise movements considering all you to is hover over a menu
[editline]6th January 2013[/editline]
Certainly less precise movements than what it takes to do a fair amount of things in the modern start menu
Also, the all apps thing in the start menu is super incoherent, it was painful to use while I used Win8.
Search is ok. doesn't always work though
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;39118217]Because I have almost a thousand things that I may or may not be using at any given time.
I can randomly pin shit to the start screen, but I'm going to run into things that I need to run that aren't going to be there on a daily basis no matter what I do. Then I have to scroll through page after page of other shit to find the shit that I need. If it was hierarchical I could actually find shit in a couple of seconds. As is, you have no easy way of knowing what folder level you are at, or even which subfolders you are actually in if it's a particularly large one.
I just don't get it. Every time this gets brought up, people like you say that I should just pin things to the start screen so I can utilize it. In other words "You're using it wrong." What part of, "that doesn't bloody goddam work for everyone" isn't registering?[/QUOTE]
Well, the start screen can house a lot of programs, so it'll take a while for most people to fill it up. Yeah, hierarchical have their place, but it's definitely not the solution for most people. The only thing I can really recommend is making a group called "Obscure shit" and place it all the way to the right. I don't know exactly how many programs you have installed, but the number must be finite.
And well, he said explicitly that he wasn't going to do such a thing.
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;39118305]Certainly less precise movements than what it takes to do a fair amount of things in the modern start menu[/QUOTE]
Yes exactly it's far quicker to operate
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;39118277]how would it?
it's not hard to read the manual for whichever system you are using
there's also the choice of multiple menus for some things, like windows implements in the task bar
[editline]6th January 2013[/editline]
If you want an operating system for people that are unable, then use the accessibility features present in most including windows
[editline]6th January 2013[/editline]
you really aren't making sense, why would you make the experience worse for the able just because you don't want the unable to use slightly bigger icons or whatever[/QUOTE]
When you need to read a manual to use a UI properly, it's a bad UI. Sorry.
[QUOTE=Darkimmortal;39118351]Yes exactly it's far quicker to operate[/QUOTE]
That I'm not so sure of
Maybe in your workflow it is, but the whole thing is a drag for me
I'm probably a special case though, considering for most things I would open a GMRun prompt and just search for the application
[editline]6th January 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39118354]When you need to read a manual to use a UI properly, it's a bad UI. Sorry.[/QUOTE]
but you don't need one, just a half decent memory
shutting down and logging out can both be triggered by ctrl alt backspace, how hard is that?
[QUOTE=Darkimmortal;39118351]Yes exactly it's far quicker to operate[/QUOTE]
The start screen doesn't require any precise movements at all.
Go to the part about "Fitts": [url]http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/10/11/reflecting-on-your-comments-on-the-start-screen.aspx[/url]
honestly you should read the manual for whichever software you use from day to day anyways
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;39118371]honestly you should read the manual for whichever software you use from day to day anyways[/QUOTE]
You've just alienated 99% of all customers by making that comment. If you want to make your product sell, you can't require people to use the manual. It'll never happen.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39118369]The start screen doesn't require any precise movements at all.
Go to the part about "Fitts": [url]http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/10/11/reflecting-on-your-comments-on-the-start-screen.aspx[/url][/QUOTE]
Fitts law only applies for people who use acceleration or can't use a mouse properly
The relevance of size should be increased and the relevance of distance should be massively decreased or completely disregarded.
The number of lines should be considered more important than anything else, eg having to move through several curves to work a hierarchical menu.
[editline]1[/editline]
If you're using a mouse properly and it is a decent mouse etc with acceleration disabled, it should be a fixed time to move to any point on the screen +/- like 10% for distance. If it's not, practice is required
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39118341]Well, the start screen can house a lot of programs, so it'll take a while for most people to fill it up. Yeah, hierarchical have their place, but it's definitely not the solution for most people. The only thing I can really recommend is making a group called "Obscure shit" and place it all the way to the right. I don't know exactly how many programs you have installed, but the number must be finite.
And well, he said explicitly that he wasn't going to do such a thing.[/QUOTE]
I disagree. Hierarchical is structured and orderly. If you know how to sort it is the best way of doing things.
Especially because it scales logarithmically (assuming consistent subfolder size) instead of linearly like a fuckhuge list.
[QUOTE=Darkimmortal;39118426]Fitts law only applies for people who use acceleration or can't use a mouse properly
The relevance of size should be increased and the relevance of distance should be massively decreased or completely disregarded.
The number of lines should be considered more important than anything else, eg having to move through several curves to work a hierarchical menu[/QUOTE]
I don't see how the heat maps don't apply? Try scrolling down to the bottom of the page, reach down in the corner and then hit the username of the poster in the bottom. Now open a new tab, go to the bottom left corner and hit the right-most "most viewed" site. The distance between the most-viewed site and the bottom-left corner should be larger than the one between your username and the corner, but at least for me, it's easier to his the site. I don't know what sensitivity you're running, but I'm using 2000DPI.
[editline]6th January 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;39118462]I disagree. Hierarchical is structured and orderly. If you know how to sort it is the best way of doing things.
Especially because it scales logarithmically (assuming consistent subfolder size) instead of linearly like a fuckhuge list.[/QUOTE]
You're assuming that developers can sort their stuff properly, that is definitely not always the case. I'm not saying the new solution is perfect, or that it doesn't have any drawbacks, but hierarchical menus definitely have drawbacks as well. Try go into openoffice and see how they organized it. It's a mess, but it's a very commonly used program.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39118465]You're assuming that developers can sort their stuff properly, that is definitely not always the case. I'm not saying the new solution is perfect, or that it doesn't have any drawbacks, but hierarchical menus definitely have drawbacks as well. Try go into openoffice and see how they organized it. It's a mess, but it's a very commonly used program.[/QUOTE]
I'm referring to the start screen vs start menu, but this doesn't make sense either.
If the devs are incompetent, then your application is bad. That's not a fault of the way things are done, it's the fault of the people implementing it incorrectly/poorly. And I already said that I like ribbons if they aren't designed by the retards who made office 07. They are a hybridization of menus, and can be used to convey a lot of information very quickly.
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;39118508]I'm referring to the start screen vs start menu, but this doesn't make sense either.
If the devs are incompetent, then your application is bad. That's not a fault of the way things are done, it's the fault of the people implementing it incorrectly/poorly. And I already said that I like ribbons if they aren't designed by the retards who made office 07. They are a hybridization of menus, and can be used to convey a lot of information very quickly.[/QUOTE]
Well, ribbons are very useful, and I find that they're quite nice in '10. And yes, it is a fault of how things are done. You have to put every setting in your program into a few categories, you will have some very broad descriptions no matter what.
I still don't follow how I responded to a post about start menu vs start screen and you responded with open office menus. :v:
[editline]6th January 2013[/editline]
mah automerge
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;39118562]I still don't follow how I responded to a post about start menu vs start screen and you responded with open office menus. :v:
[editline]6th January 2013[/editline]
mah automerge[/QUOTE]
I'm probably messing different arguments up with each other, but I just used OpenOffice as case where hierarchical menus just doesn't work.
You're all also forgetting that if you simply right click where the start menu button is, you get your non full screen start menu, giving you access to the task manager, control panel, management tools, and your search and 'run' menus.
[QUOTE=redBadger;39118629]You're all also forgetting that if you simply right click where the start menu button is, you get your non full screen start menu, giving you access to the task manager, control panel, management tools, and your search and 'run' menus.[/QUOTE]
I was wondering if it was worth me bringing this up. But yeah, this is a great little option that gives you instant access to all your administrative stuff, configuration, etc. And because it is technically a context menu, you can add whatever the fuck you want to it.
[QUOTE=redBadger;39118629]You're all also forgetting that if you simply right click where the start menu button is, you get your non full screen start menu, giving you access to the task manager, control panel, management tools, and your search and 'run' menus.[/QUOTE]
oh but it's not 100% the same as the old start menu so it's bad!11
Switched to Windows 8 full time for the sake of this thread and argument.
So far I must say; Metro is fucking miserable. What a mistake.
[QUOTE=1/4 Life;39124096]Switched to Windows 8 full time for the sake of this thread and argument.
So far I must say; Metro is fucking miserable. What a mistake.[/QUOTE]
I installed win 8 yesterday and I thought the same for the first half an hour of using it
Then I got used to it and realized that all the people crying about it are idiots who never tried it
[img]http://i.imgur.com/1VhXm.jpg[/img]
the windows rt experience
[editline]7th January 2013[/editline]
wow cool the gif didn't actually download on my phone and i can't find it. have the video instead: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTtf_BgFS08[/url]
featuring lag that must have taken effort to create since they haven't existed in any word processor since the beginning of word processing
[QUOTE=Lazor;39127508][img]http://i.imgur.com/1VhXm.jpg[/img]
the windows rt experience
[editline]7th January 2013[/editline]
wow cool the gif didn't actually download on my phone and i can't find it. have the video instead: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTtf_BgFS08[/url]
featuring lag that must have taken effort to create since they haven't existed in any word processor since the beginning of word processing[/QUOTE]
October 27? Wow, Microsoft probably hasn't even fixed that yet!
doesn't matter if it's fixed, it's pretty exemplary of the development and corporate problems that plagued development. Whoever decided that shit was ready to ship should be fired. The RT Tablet shipping with a desktop mode just for Office was a supremely moronic decision that only happened because of internal politics.
[editline]7th January 2013[/editline]
like seriously, it was they ear of our lord 2012 and microsoft shipped a flag ship product that lagged if you typed to fast. Microsoft has no idea what they're doing.
[QUOTE=Lazor;39127653]doesn't matter if it's fixed, it's pretty exemplary of the development and corporate problems that plagued development. Whoever decided that shit was ready to ship should be fired. The RT Tablet shipping with a desktop mode just for Office was a supremely moronic decision that only happened because of internal politics.
[editline]7th January 2013[/editline]
like seriously, it was they ear of our lord 2012 and microsoft shipped a flag ship product that lagged if you typed to fast. Microsoft has no idea what they're doing.[/QUOTE]
this is actually the biggest reason why I want Linux to be come viable for PC gaming. MS hasn't really outperformed their competitors in technical stuff in like...who knows how long? It's like ever since XP they've just been relying on the fact that allot of software is Windows only. Even though Windows 7 was all good, it arguably should have been what Vista was on Day 1 (sorta)
[QUOTE=The Baconator;39127823]this is actually the biggest reason why I want Linux to be come viable for PC gaming. MS hasn't really outperformed their competitors in technical stuff in like...who knows how long? It's like ever since XP they've just been relying on the fact that allot of software is Windows only. Even though Windows 7 was all good, it arguably should have been what Vista was on Day 1 (sorta)[/QUOTE]
This right here if Linux had more support for software and games then I would tell microsoft to eat a dick!!!!
My 67-year-old uncle switched to 8 about a month ago and he still hates it. Every time I talk to him about his computer he always has a number of questions starting with "Why..."
The main one being: "Why did I pay money for this?"
He can't see the point of useless changes to the interface that seem to be intentionally confusing for people who have previously used windows.
[QUOTE=superstepa;39124503]I installed win 8 yesterday and I thought the same for the first half an hour of using it
Then I got used to it and realized that all the people crying about it are idiots who never tried it[/QUOTE]
Broke down and installed Start8. The search is same as the one in metro so it's just as fast, and now I have access to all of my libraries again. Of course, the start menu is small and the size is constant, so I almost never even look at it when using it. No more broken concentration. Metro is definitely a mistake. I could put up with it, but why should I?
The rest of the OS is kind of awful too. Aero being gone means anything with transparency looks like shit. The default theme doesn't work when you set it to a dark color (Oh god where's my title bars!?). Not even the ribbon explorer is particularly useful. It's just a bunch of wasted space for options I don't need to use or can do with my keyboard. They even moved the details pane to the side (Which I actually used), so now it takes up way more space than it should.
The permissions are all kinds of fucked up as well. Even with UAC disabled I still get prompts when copying files or doing things in the command prompt, so now I'm required to run everything as admin again.
Plus; at no fault to the OS on this one of course; I think the default theme looks like shit. It's all just flat colors and straight lines. With transparency disabled, it looks like a slightly upgraded Windows 3.11 or something.
That's $5 I'll never get back, and $40 Microsoft didn't deserve. This OS [i]should[/i] be a failure.
[QUOTE=The Baconator;39127823]this is actually the biggest reason why I want Linux to be come viable for PC gaming. MS hasn't really outperformed their competitors in technical stuff in like...who knows how long? It's like ever since XP they've just been relying on the fact that allot of software is Windows only. Even though Windows 7 was all good, it arguably should have been what Vista was on Day 1 (sorta)[/QUOTE]
DirectX is the sole reason my desktop isn't running Linux full time.
[QUOTE=1/4 Life;39128500]The permissions are all kinds of fucked up as well. Even with UAC disabled I still get prompts when copying files or doing things in the command prompt, so now I'm required to run everything as admin again.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I had the same issue even when I was simply trying to open a folder.
reminder that microsoft literally spent $1.5 billion marketing a device that most people look at and go "why the fuck wouldn't i just get an ipad?", and was initially sold only online and in microsoft stores
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