Venezuela is on the brink of complete economic collapse, inflation at 720% - Polidicks

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49673593]are you saying socialism is inherently corrupt but capitalism isn't? Sometimes you interject the most unsolicited and useless opinions in the middle of reasonable posts.[/QUOTE] Are you really going to pretend he wasn't being specific and sticking strictly to the relevant context of the Venezuelan Socialist movement here, or are you just bad at reading His point is about how socialism is the cause of the state failure in Venezuela, it isn't a blanket criticism of all forms of socialism everywhere, he doesn't even mention capitalism, I mean come on. He even says that the corruption and incompetence stems from the "socialist party" and not socialism.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49673480]they're made worst (or are the result of) socialist policies in venezuela though there is an economic minister in venezuela who literally claimed that inflation doesnt exist and is a capitalist plot does anybody remember when insulated western socialists kept claiming that venezuela was an example of socialism working in practice and how chavez was getting rid of poverty and opposing the imperialist usa[/QUOTE] Chomsky is weeping right now.

I see a bunch of people in denial in this thread. This is the inevitable result of socialist policy. The government tried to give people all these great free goodies without a means to pay for them, so they printed money to subsidize everything. It doesn't take a genius to understand how that could cause inflation. They go into debt to provide services for the people. And what's even worse, they appointed a central bank governor who believes that inflation doesn't exist. That is the economic equivalent of sticking one's fingers in his ears and yelling "LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU". It's very hard to pay for the amount of free housing and gasoline that was attempted in Venezuela, and no amount of taxation short of ripping the entire incomes of the wealthy will manage to cover those costs. Even if one were to do that, the wealthy will simply leave the country and go somewhere with lower taxes. This is basic economics, and it's not surprising that a socialist government does not understand it.

[QUOTE=Big Bang;49673811]It wasn't working before. The system flat out doesn't work if its heyday and lowest point coincide exactly with the highest and lowest market valuation of oil prices. The economic crisis that Venezuela is facing has everything to do with the government seemingly wanting to ignore markets exist...While still embracing the fact that oil prices fluctuate because of supply and demand.[/QUOTE] That's exactly my point. What kind of socialist policies are we talking about anyway? Free education? Basic income? Free water and electricity? Outruling of privatized companies for the biggest income sources? Qatar has those and calls itself a Democracy in its constitution.

Is there a chance that the US is fucking with venezuela just as it did with many socialist/communists southamerican countries on the past?

[QUOTE=dragon1972;49673865]I see a bunch of people in denial in this thread. This is the inevitable result of socialist policy. The government tried to give people all these great free goodies without a means to pay for them, so they printed money to subsidize everything. It doesn't take a genius to understand how that could cause inflation. They go into debt to provide services for the people. And what's even worse, they appointed a central bank governor who believes that inflation doesn't exist. That is the economic equivalent of sticking one's fingers in his ears and yelling "LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU". It's very hard to pay for the amount of free housing and gasoline that was attempted in Venezuela, and no amount of taxation short of ripping the entire incomes of the wealthy will manage to cover those costs. Even if one were to do that, the wealthy will simply leave the country and go somewhere with lower taxes. This is basic economics, and it's not surprising that a socialist government does not understand it.[/QUOTE] They gave them free goodies to keep them calm and silent abut the rampant problems of the country, not because of Socialist ideals. [editline]5th February 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Cosa8888;49673897]Is there a chance that the US is fucking with venezuela just as it did with many socialist/communists southamerican countries on the past?[/QUOTE] Well indirectly, after all it began with the Saudis trying to fuck the emergent US fracking industry.

[QUOTE=Killuah;49673882]That's exactly my point. What kind of socialist policies are we talking about anyway? Free education? Basic income? Free water and electricity? Outruling of privatized companies for the biggest income sources? Qatar has those and calls itself a Democracy in its constitution.[/QUOTE] That's because Qatar has so much oil extracted at such a low price, in combination with a small population that it masks how horribly dysfunctional their economy and political system actually is. Like, it's only just now that the Arab oil states are starting to suffer from low oil, and when the oil age ends they will collapse back into the sands after they run out of their monies and people stop investing there because there's literally nothing of value they possess besides oil and some trace minerals.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49673945]That's because Qatar has so much oil extracted at such a low price, in combination with a small population that it masks how horribly dysfunctional their economy and political system actually is. Like, it's only just now that the Arab oil states are starting to suffer from low oil, and when the oil age ends they will collapse back into the sands after they run out of their monies and people stop investing there because there's literally nothing of value they possess besides oil and some trace minerals.[/QUOTE] And would you call Qatar Socialist?

There's probably a bright side to this story in there somewhere, that is if anyone can afford the electricity bill at the end of next month.

Shit we raise our interest rate .25% and the stock market threatens to collapse, they have a decade of hyperinflation and 720% inflation and are collapsing now Apples to oranges but sometimes it's unbelievable how whiney our financial system is I hope they can turn things around but I don't see how

[QUOTE=dragon1972;49673865]I see a bunch of people in denial in this thread. This is the inevitable result of socialist policy. The government tried to give people all these great free goodies without a means to pay for them, so they printed money to subsidize everything. It doesn't take a genius to understand how that could cause inflation. They go into debt to provide services for the people. And what's even worse, they appointed a central bank governor who believes that inflation doesn't exist. That is the economic equivalent of sticking one's fingers in his ears and yelling "LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU". It's very hard to pay for the amount of free housing and gasoline that was attempted in Venezuela, and no amount of taxation short of ripping the entire incomes of the wealthy will manage to cover those costs. Even if one were to do that, the wealthy will simply leave the country and go somewhere with lower taxes. This is basic economics, and it's not surprising that a socialist government does not understand it.[/QUOTE] the point is that you can blame socialism all you want, but venezuela is barely comparable, if at all, to how it would be implemented in an otherwise stable nation

[QUOTE=Killuah;49673955]And would you call Qatar Socialist?[/QUOTE] I don't see your point [QUOTE=Zukriuchen;49673999]the point is that you can blame socialism all you want, but venezuela is barely comparable, if at all, to how it would be implemented in an otherwise stable nation[/QUOTE] Iunno, a few of the problems Venezuela has right now are often ones that Britain had in the 1970s in terms of how the economy was being managed.

[QUOTE=Dr.Critic;49673817]Are you really going to pretend he wasn't being specific and sticking strictly to the relevant context of the Venezuelan Socialist movement here, or are you just bad at reading His point is about how socialism is the cause of the state failure in Venezuela, it isn't a blanket criticism of all forms of socialism everywhere, he doesn't even mention capitalism, I mean come on. He even says that the corruption and incompetence stems from the "socialist party" and not socialism.[/QUOTE] Oh jeeze sorry I didn't read an imperfect statement how you wanted me to

[QUOTE=Killuah;49673882]That's exactly my point. What kind of socialist policies are we talking about anyway? Free education? Basic income? Free water and electricity? Outruling of privatized companies for the biggest income sources? Qatar has those and calls itself a Democracy in its constitution.[/QUOTE] Socialism as in "we believe markets exploit the people, so we got rid of them", which is the core tenet behind a WHOLE bunch of Venezuelan economic policies, like currency controls, to supposedly get rid of the 'Imperialist influence in Venezuelan monetary currency', fixed prices to get rid of 'speculators', expropriation as a mean to return 'economic sovereignty from the oligarchy back to the people, and subsidizing fucking everything to allow the poorest of Venezuelans to afford things. Venezuela fixed poverty by making everyone poor without them noticing. There isn't a wage gap if even the best paid Venezuelans are still making far below minimum wage in America. [QUOTE=Zukriuchen;49673999]the point is that you can blame socialism all you want, but venezuela is barely comparable, if at all, to how it would be implemented in an otherwise stable nation[/QUOTE] Which ends up being not socialism at all, in terms of economic policies. Having a welfare state doesn't make you a socialist.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49674012]I don't see your point Iunno, a few of the problems Venezuela has right now are often ones that Britain had in the 1970s in terms of how the economy was being managed.[/QUOTE] Same policies as Venezuela, same source of income. Yet the fail of one is the result of socialist policies? I don't think so.

[QUOTE=Killuah;49674083]Same policies as Venezuela, same source of income. Yet the fail of one is the result of socialist policies? I don't think so.[/QUOTE] Read up on Venezuelan economic policy. It's not the same thing as Qatar at all. The fault of the economic collapse lies directly on them.

[QUOTE=Killuah;49674083]Same policies as Venezuela, same source of income. Yet the fail of one is the result of socialist policies? I don't think so.[/QUOTE] Qatar still has massive cash reserves and their breakeven price is lower. They also have a smaller population and country as a whole and can hold out for longer. They also haven't taken economic policies to the extreme that Venezuela has, especially since its a group of inbred aristocrats that runs Qatar with a modicum more pragmatism, rather than demagogues committed to a dead ideology. When Qatar actually burns out through their reserves, their economy will pretty much begin contracting. But as a whole they are nowhere near as insane as Venezuela.

ded

[QUOTE=Octavius;49674353]Venezuela isn't and wasn't socialist[/QUOTE] What is PSUV. The previous administration was vehemently socialist and carried out policies that were indeed socialist in nature. Just because they don't fit [I]your[/I] mishmash definition of socialism doesn't mean they weren't.

How, IN THE FUCK DOES THIS HAPPEN?! How do you Fuck up an economy like this?!

[QUOTE=Octavius;49674353]I really don't know how many times it has to be said to you Sobotnik, Venezuela isn't and wasn't socialist. They implemented a number of policies that expanded the welfare state and had government interjection in the economy, but they always stopped with those reforms. They never took a truly anti-capitalist position. As to those magical 'isolated' western Socialists who praised them as an example of Socialism in action I can only say they must be pretty stupid and that I've never met one of them. Sure, a lot of socialists supported Venezuela for a number of reasons, but I've not seen any call it an example of socialism.[/QUOTE] they literally call themselves socialists and introduced explicitly socialist policies they have worked to dismantle the market economy, nationalize industries, redistribute wealth, seize private property, and launched a number of "wars" against what they call capitalists. they've even tried setting up workers co-operatives and other similarly dumb shit the result is the collapse of a functioning society and a rapid increase in poverty. [QUOTE=theevilldeadII;49674394]How, IN THE FUCK DOES THIS HAPPEN?! How do you Fuck up an economy like this?![/QUOTE] venezuelan socialism

ded

Engaging in revisionism just to try and remove the blight of a blatant failure from the face of your ideology just highlights massive intellectual dishonest. Chavez was by all honest and legitimate standards socialist, just because a site that has a vested interest in maintaining the purity of the term is willing to lie to preserve it does not mean they are actually right.

It always goes like this. Hardcore leftists (I really do mean hardcore leftists here. The majority of democrats and people on the left wouldn't fall into this category.) praise a country for being equitable, socialist, finally standing up to the corrupt "capitalist class," etc. The country then falls apart, and all the same people deny that the country was ever REALLY socialist, equitable, etc. It happened in the Soviet Union, it happened in Venezuela, hell, you even see people praise Cuba for their socialist policies, and I'm sure it will happen again.

[QUOTE=sgman91;49674569]It always goes like this. Hardcore leftists (I really do mean hardcore leftists here. The majority of democrats and people on the left wouldn't fall into this category.) praise a country for being equitable, socialist, finally standing up to the corrupt "capitalist class," etc. The country then falls apart, and all the same people deny that the country was ever REALLY socialist, equitable, etc. It happened in the Soviet Union, it happened in Venezuela, hell, you even see people praise Cuba for their socialist policies, and I'm sure it will happen again.[/QUOTE] who the fuck has ever praised venezuela here

[QUOTE=Octavius;49674486]They don't fit [I]any[/I] 'mishmash' definition of socialism. I'm not here to question whether or not any individual member of the PSUV in fact believes in socialism or promotes it, but they did not implement socialism in Venezuela and that is a simple fact. Their actions have much more in common with social democrats, albeit shitty ones, than socialists. Nationalizing a company or sector isn't socialist in nature. Having a social safety net isn't socialist in nature. Having socialism is socialist in nature, and they certainly did not have socialism. I can call myself God but that doesn't make me God. The president of France is in the Socialist Party, yet France is not socialist and the French Socialist Party does not advocate socialism. The PSUV government under Chavez and Maduro have taken a number of half steps that keep the capitalist economic structure intact. They've made no serious effort to dismantle capitalism and implement socialism. As much as they've attacked capitalist here and there, they have not at all tried to tear down the capitalist economic system. Any socialist can tell you this. [/QUOTE] Oh, you mean that, if they were to follow the Socialist doctrine to the T, I would have even LESS economic freedom? Then fuck that, the country would be far worse! Are you kidding me here? You're blaming the Venezuelan government for not being socialist enough? How the fuck would going all the way solve anything? What would you ask them to do? Remove markets completely?

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;49674693]who the fuck has ever praised venezuela here[/QUOTE] those damn leftists sobotnik and sgman are inventing in their heads

More than a few on just this forum alone. Perhaps some in this thread, even.

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;49674889]More than a few on just this forum alone. Perhaps some in this thread, even.[/QUOTE] its got two pages!! is it really that hard to just look it up

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;49674693]who the fuck has ever praised venezuela here[/QUOTE] Not necessarily here, but in general. With that said, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if quite a few people on this forum had some sympathy as well. Here are a few big names: - Chaka Fattah, democrat house rep from philadelphia - Sean Penn, actor - Michael Moore, director - Danny Glover, actor - Jesse Meyerson, Rolling Stone writer - etc. Then you have people like Chomsky saying that the genocides in asia by communistic governments never really happened. The mayor of London even invited Chavez to speak at a conference in the UK with over 800 attendees where he got acclamations of praise and applause. ([URL]http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/may/15/london.politics[/URL]) Then you have people like Jeremy Corbin saying, [B]"I am very interested in what they are doing in Venezuela in terms of lessening the gap between rich and poor. Maybe the British government could learn something from that. Blair and the government should recognise which way the wind is blowing in Latin America."[/B] ([URL]http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/may/15/london.politics[/URL])