Venezuela is on the brink of complete economic collapse, inflation at 720% - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;49674903]its got two pages!! is it really that hard to just look it up[/QUOTE]I'm being intentionally vague, not uninformed.

[QUOTE=sgman91;49674937]Not necessarily here, but in general. Here are a few big names: - Chaka Fattah, democrat house rep from philadelphia - Sean Penn, actor - Michael Moore, director - Danny Glover, actor - Jesse Meyerson, Rolling Stone writer - etc. Then you have people like Chomsky saying that the genocides in asia by communistic governments never really happened. The mayor of London even invited Chavez to speak at a conference in the UK with over 800 attendees where he got acclamations of praise and applause. ([URL]http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/may/15/london.politics[/URL]) Then you have people like Jeremy Corbin saying, [B]"I am very interested in what they are doing in Venezuela in terms of lessening the gap between rich and poor. Maybe the British government could learn something from that. Blair and the government should recognise which way the wind is blowing in Latin America."[/B] ([URL]http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/may/15/london.politics[/URL])[/QUOTE] oops i figured "here" meant "on facepunch" not that it was referring to your first statement

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;49674958]oops i figured "here" meant "on facepunch" not that it was referring to your first statement[/QUOTE] Got it. I can see how that wasn't very clear after rereading it.

ded

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;49674949]I'm being intentionally vague, not uninformed.[/QUOTE] nope just looked uninformed is most definitely it

[QUOTE=Octavius;49674967]This isn't intellectually dishonest. This isn't revisionism. It's just a fact. Venezuela was not and is not socialist. By no honest or legitimate standard was Venezuela socialist. I'm not here to argue about whether individuals were socialists, that doesn't matter. You can have a capitalist state governed by socialists. As I stated in the very post you replied to, it doesn't matter if every single member of the PSUV believed in socialism so long as they never implemented it.[/quote] but they literally tried to implement it. they attempted workers cooperatives, getting rid of private industry, reforming agriculture, lessening inequality, etc [quote]Trotsky, for example, maintained that it was a degenerated workers state, and not a socialist state.[/quote] who the hell cares about trotsky lol [quote]Taking half steps leads to contradictions and problems. An economy doesn't run very well when it is inconsistent as fuck and has shit policies. And what is this economic freedom you seem to desire so much?[/QUOTE] generally leaving people alone to do business as they please while making sure they aren't flouting regulations and paying taxes is more or less the basic model for a successful economy venezuela has such a dysfunctional economy and people in charge of said economy that one of their ministers outright stated he adheres to the psuedoscience of marxism and claims that inflation doesnt exist

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49674012]I don't see your point Iunno, a few of the problems Venezuela has right now are often ones that Britain had in the 1970s in terms of how the economy was being managed.[/QUOTE] I don't remember Britian having a 720% hyperinflation rate.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49674995]psuedoscience of marxism[/QUOTE] This is where your entire argument falls apart, as socialism can stand entirely apart from Marx, his writings, and his followers, just as it has and continues to do since the days of Proudhon and Bakunin. 'lol he quoted marx' isn't an argument against socialism and it never has been, so you shold stop accusing people of intellectual dishonesty when you're still engaging in it yourself.

[QUOTE=Jintei;49675055]I don't remember Britian having a 720% hyperinflation rate.[/QUOTE] It had pretty high inflation, economic stagnation, and industrial unrest for much of the 1970s though, enough to the point that it had to get bailed out by the IMF and people ended up going to the other extreme and voting in Thatcher and the tories. [QUOTE=daschnek;49675063]This is where your entire argument falls apart, as socialism can stand entirely apart from Marx, his writings, and his followers, just as it has and continues to do since the days of Proudhon and Bakunin. 'lol he quoted marx' isn't an argument against socialism and it never has been, so you shold stop accusing people of intellectual dishonesty when you're still engaging in it yourself.[/QUOTE] i'm talking about the insane economic minister Luis Salas who claims that inflation doesn't exist. i'm pretty sure he is a marxist from what i've heard nevermind that chavez literally cited trotsky, marx, or lenin or outright quoted them lol

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49675080] i'm talking about the insane economic minister Luis Salas who claims that inflation doesn't exist. i'm pretty sure he is a marxist from what i've heard[/QUOTE] In that case we have very little to disagree about, but I just find the discourse on socialism to be very confusing when some people tend to paint all socialists with the Marxist brush, as though we all take all our economic views from Das Kapital and look no further.

[QUOTE=daschnek;49675107]In that case we have very little to disagree about, but I just find the discourse on socialism to be very confusing when some people tend to paint all socialists with the Marxist brush, as though we all take all our economic views from Das Kapital and look no further.[/QUOTE] as long as you dont plan on abolishing the market economy there's no issues

[QUOTE=wystan;49673451]Better yet, Maduro is a democratic socialist.[/QUOTE] Elected into office by democratic channels? More or less, yes Actually acts like a rwsponsible and democratic leader? Eh...

[QUOTE=Octavius;49674967]And what is this economic freedom you seem to desire so much?[/QUOTE] Boy I wish I could subject you to what life is actually like in Venezuela. You seem to be an expert in coming up with ways to make it worse, but I only wish I could subject you to it. [QUOTE=T553412;49675183]Elected into office by democratic channels? More or less, yes[/QUOTE] I often criticize this view, because I really have no idea who came up with this idea that Venezuela is democratic just because there's elections and the results of the elections aren't rigged before they happened. There's obviously other ways to cheat democracy, there's hundreds of methods that the Venezuelan government has employed to guarantee their electoral results, and I mean, it's one of the least transparent governments in the world, it goes without saying that it's not gonna have clean and transparent elections. That they lost this past December means nothing if they were able to contest the elections (The ONE time such a request goes through is when the opposition wins, what a coincidence, right!?) and get away with removing properly elected deputies from power, properly elected as in, following every single one of the rules the CNE has for campaigns which also for some reason seem to apply more heavily to the opposition., and remove representation for an entire state. In ANY consolidated democracy that would be a MASSIVE outrage, but nah, because it's Venezuela it's OK, it's somehow democratic.

[QUOTE=Big Bang;49675185]I often criticize this view, because I really have no idea who came up with this idea that Venezuela is democratic just because there's elections and the results of the elections aren't rigged before they happened. There's obviously other ways to cheat democracy, there's hundreds of methods that the Venezuelan government has employed to guarantee their electoral results, and I mean, it's one of the least transparent governments in the world, it goes without saying that it's not gonna have clean and transparent elections. That they lost this past December means nothing if they were able to contest the elections (The ONE time such a request goes through is when the opposition wins, what a coincidence, right!?) and get away with removing properly elected deputies from power, properly elected as in, following every single one of the rules the CNE has for campaigns which also for some reason seem to apply more heavily to the opposition., and remove representation for an entire state. In ANY consolidated democracy that would be a MASSIVE outrage, but nah, because it's Venezuela it's OK, it's somehow democratic.[/QUOTE] Exactly. A lot of folks believe that democracy is about just voting for someone every five years or so, and let them take care of the country themselves. Democracy is much more deeper and complex than that. People just feel fine with the abridged version of "your vote counts", and ignore everything else.

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;49674693]who the fuck has ever praised venezuela here[/QUOTE] A few years ago, Hitler could have risen from the dead and joined NAMBLA, and many on Facepunch would have praised him as long as he was seen wearing a "no blood for oil" T-shirt from time to time.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49674117]Qatar still has massive cash reserves and their breakeven price is lower. They also have a smaller population and country as a whole and can hold out for longer. They also haven't taken economic policies to the extreme that Venezuela has, especially since its a group of inbred aristocrats that runs Qatar with a modicum more pragmatism, rather than demagogues committed to a dead ideology. When Qatar actually burns out through their reserves, their economy will pretty much begin contracting. But as a whole they are nowhere near as insane as Venezuela.[/QUOTE] The thing is Qatar hasn't been sitting on its ass, they've been developing a service economy by training people in all sorts of fields outside the country and have some of the only service businesses in the middle east [editline]4th February 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=wystan;49673451]Better yet, Maduro is a democratic socialist.[/QUOTE] I see where you are trying to go with this but he's also a corrupt south american politician in one of the least transparent and more corrupt countries in south america. The policies aren't necessarily the issue, venizuala has the most expensive oil in the world, even when it was 150$/barrel they weren't making money

[QUOTE=Sableye;49675511] I see where you are trying to go with this but he's also a corrupt south american politician in one of the least transparent and more corrupt countries in south america. The policies aren't necessarily the issue, [B]Venezuela[/B] has the most expensive oil in the world, even when it was 150$/barrel they weren't making money[/QUOTE] Corruption plays a part, but it's not the sole reason why the country failed. Crime and corruption are a very important part about why the state has failed, but not necessarily why the economy failed. The current economic and monetary policies, had they been implemented in a perfectly transparent country, would have failed regardless. In fact, it can be argued that things like currency controls, which make arbitrage easy and very much possible, and the excessive bureaucracy that state owned food distribution creates are actively causing corruption. The government being this huge and completely controlled by a single party makes it corrupt. Its economic policies though would have drove any country to bankruptcy, corruption just exacerbates the decay to the point it happens in a short few years.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49673635]im saying these socialist policies are failures. i dont get why this should translate into support for "capitalism" which isn't even a political ideology in itself[/QUOTE] Considering how its become a mainstay of American democracy and every other democracy. its about as inseparable from Democracy as Socialism is to Communism.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;49673268]Hope our Venezuelan comrades here on FP can get the hell out of dodge with their families before its too late.[/QUOTE] It's already too late

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49673480]they're made worst (or are the result of) socialist policies in venezuela though there is an economic minister in venezuela who literally claimed that inflation doesnt exist and is a capitalist plot does anybody remember when insulated western socialists kept claiming that venezuela was an example of socialism working in practice and how chavez was getting rid of poverty and opposing the imperialist usa[/QUOTE]Haha, yes I came in this thread to ask that very thing myself. Oh man this one time I got into a HUGE argument on Facebook (I think) about how Venezuela was not and never will be as great as these two dipshits were saying it was and they actually stopped talking to me in real life. We worked together by the way, and they refused to associate with me because I said socialism and corruption spread by a fat tinpot dictator who looks like he smells like cheese and piss is not a good recipe for a successful country. I think one of them actually moved to Venezuela or something like that lmao [QUOTE=Big Bang;49673768]I wish I could but getting enough money to leave is fucking difficult since bolivares are worth less and less every day, and I can only get paid in bolivares here, that coupled with my university education being interrupted by constant strikes is really starting to ruin my goal of moving abroad. I've been applying for outsourced jobs but the market is really competitive.[/QUOTE]You might want to start looking at this like a survival situation and start preparing for things. Economic collapse usually means civil unrest so stock up on necessities right now and for fuck's sake start converting your currency into something else that doesn't suck. Do this as much as possible as fast as possible. [QUOTE=Sobotnik;49674117]When Qatar actually burns out through their reserves, their economy will pretty much begin contracting. But as a whole they are nowhere near as insane as Venezuela.[/QUOTE]Plus Qatar is taking note of the situation and is trying hard to move their economy away from oil, as are other states in the region. (besides Saudi Arabia lmao) Kuwait is actually so fucking devastated from the war that there's actually a market for hydroponic farm equipment since it's about the only way they can grow anything. So they're trying to (with varying levels of success) expand their economy and make it more stable, exact opposite of Venezuela basically.

[QUOTE=sgman91;49674937]Not necessarily here, but in general. With that said, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if quite a few people on this forum had some sympathy as well. Here are a few big names: - Chaka Fattah, democrat house rep from philadelphia - Sean Penn, actor - Michael Moore, director - Danny Glover, actor - Jesse Meyerson, Rolling Stone writer - etc. Then you have people like Chomsky saying that the genocides in asia by communistic governments never really happened. The mayor of London even invited Chavez to speak at a conference in the UK with over 800 attendees where he got acclamations of praise and applause. ([URL]http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/may/15/london.politics[/URL]) Then you have people like Jeremy Corbin saying, [B]"I am very interested in what they are doing in Venezuela in terms of lessening the gap between rich and poor. Maybe the British government could learn something from that. Blair and the government should recognise which way the wind is blowing in Latin America."[/B] ([URL]http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/may/15/london.politics[/URL])[/QUOTE] Interesting that Corbyn said that. Clearly shows what will happen if he gets into power.

[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;49673438]That's retardedness, not socialism.[/QUOTE] But those are synonymous

[QUOTE=Shadow801;49676815]Interesting that Corbyn said that. Clearly shows what will happen if he gets into power.[/QUOTE] Curious, I looked to see if he had said anything else about Venezuela and Chavez, and lucky me I found an entire article he wrote on it... on his own website! Here are some gems: "His (Chavez's) electoral democratic credentials are beyond reproach." "The success in Venezuela has inspired others so that there is a tangible shift across the whole continent" My personal favorite: [B]"In Parliament, Tony Blair seemed not to understand that the survival of Cuba since 1979 is an inspiration to the poorest in the region, and that Venezuela is seriously conquering poverty by emphatically rejecting the Neo Liberal policies of the world’s financial institutions."[/B] [URL]http://jeremycorbyn.org.uk/articles/venezuela/[/URL] [editline]5th February 2016[/editline] That was from 2009, but in 2015 he said: [B]"When we celebrate, and it is a cause for celebration, the achievements of Venezuela, in jobs, in housing , in health, in education, but above all its role in the whole world as a completely different place, then we do that because we recognise what they have achieved." [/B]([URL]http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/British-MP-Jeremy-Corbyn-Speaks-Out-For-Venezuela-20150605-0033.html[/URL]) I have no idea about that site, but it has the full speech. So That's all I'm really referring to.

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;49674520]Engaging in revisionism just to try and remove the blight of a blatant failure from the face of your ideology just highlights massive intellectual dishonest. Chavez was by all honest and legitimate standards socialist, just because a site that has a vested interest in maintaining the purity of the term is willing to lie to preserve it does not mean they are actually right.[/QUOTE] A criminal corrupt dictatorship is not a socialism by honest and legitimate standards

Good luck with everyone there, because is going to get worse no matter happens next. The only hope your people should have, is to finish once and for all the corruption. That would make easier the things, even if we all of us knows is almost impossible.

[QUOTE=Killuah;49677029]A criminal corrupt dictatorship is not a socialism by honest and legitimate standards[/QUOTE] The people that ascended to power in Argentina, Brazil, Venezuela have similar ideologies and ruined their countries in a similar way over the past 20 years. They identify themselves as "communists" or "socialists" but they're nothing more than criminals.

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;49678061]The people that ascended to power in Argentina, Brazil, Venezuela have similar ideologies and ruined their countries in a similar way over the past 20 years. They identify themselves as "communists" or "socialists" but they're nothing more than criminals.[/QUOTE] lol since when do argentina's and brazil's governments identify as communist quit trying to mislead people

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;49678175]lol since when do argentina's and brazil's governments identify as communist quit trying to mislead people[/QUOTE] "They" in that context is "the people that ascended to power". How would a country even be a criminal?

[QUOTE=Killuah;49677029]A criminal corrupt dictatorship is not a socialism by honest and legitimate standards[/QUOTE] What makes it true socialism then? It seems odd that there are socialists and the like who point to a whole varied range of countries and differing economic systems, group them together under the term capitalism, and then point out a range of problems caused by it. Chile in the eighties is cited as a example of capitalism and how it's bad, but then people shy away from calling Venezuela socialist because the idea socialism isn't working there implies it might not work elsewhere. Thankfully communism is already dead, and socialism is already on its way out. Venezuela has done such a good job at fucking up that it embarrasses socialists.

I thought the title said vuvuzela. Boy was I confused.