Venezuela is on the brink of complete economic collapse, inflation at 720% - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Killuah;49677029]A criminal corrupt dictatorship is not a socialism by honest and legitimate standards[/QUOTE] What exactly about the socialist economic doctrine makes it not prone for corruption? Every single socialist country, or formally socialist country has been subject to high levels of it. Centralized planning will, almost by necessity, generate corruption just due to the logistics nightmare it causes. Hell, it seems like it's not coincidence that the least corrupt countries also happen to be not socialist. It's really no surprise that the best examples of success, of countries that have reached very high prosperity and human development indexes, that are the best to live in, all happen to be social democracies and never socialism. It's almost as if the ideas of socialism always seem to be poorly implemented and never done right for some reason, yet capitalist (Not laissez-faire), democratic countries don't seem to struggle at all!

[QUOTE=Killuah;49677029]A criminal corrupt dictatorship is not a socialism by honest and legitimate standards[/QUOTE] Can you name a socialist country that has not been a criminal corrupt dictatorship?

[QUOTE=Da Bomb76;49678317]Can you name a socialist country that has not been a criminal corrupt dictatorship?[/QUOTE] Depends entirely on your definition of socialism. Many countries take on many elements of socialism and the term is applied to them, Norway, Sweden, etc.

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49678696]Depends entirely on your definition of socialism. Many countries take on many elements of socialism and the term is applied to them, Norway, Sweden, etc.[/QUOTE] norway and sweden have pretty open free market economies though the state doesnt really interfere with businesses to the degree that venezuela does

Being a socialist country has nothing to do with this. Having a corrupt government which doesnt understand macroeconomics does.

[QUOTE=Code3Response;49678851]Being a socialist country has nothing to do with this. Having a corrupt government which doesnt understand macroeconomics does.[/QUOTE] the government doesn't understand macroeconomics because they are substituting socialist policies for economic policies which work the fact that the government is full of socialists who genuinely believe that their socialist policies will work is the reason venezuela is such a shithole

I didnt know printing money was a unique socialist policy.

[QUOTE=Code3Response;49678851]Being a socialist country has nothing to do with this. Having a corrupt government which doesnt understand macroeconomics does.[/QUOTE] Socialism is inherently not understanding macroeconomics. I mean that literally. It denies the facts of economics.

[QUOTE=Code3Response;49678873]I didnt know printing money was a unique socialist policy.[/QUOTE] It pretty uniquely tends to happen to socialist countries :v: Thanks to glorious socialism, once upon a time everyone in the Polish Peoples Republic was a millionaire

Want to see a prime example of the no true Scotsman fallacy? Point out socialist countries that have failed and watch people say "it wasn't REAL socialism".

[QUOTE=Code3Response;49678873]I didnt know printing money was a unique socialist policy.[/QUOTE] they're socialists, they don't understand economics (or care) and are printing shitloads of money to the point it is damaging the economy the venezuelan economy is managed not by disinterested third parties who help it to correct itself and regulate it as a whole, but by politicians who blatantly introduce the most stupid policies because it fits their preconceived ideas about how an economy works generally socialists have a greatly simplified view of the economy, in that it usually eschews one or more crucial factors in order to condense it down enough that it can be explained in a pamphlet or a selection of quotes from some dead maniac, rather than a multitude of economics papers

[QUOTE=Code3Response;49678873]I didnt know printing money was a unique socialist policy.[/QUOTE] This is not the core reason why production in Venezuela is at an all time low, or why there is no food or medicines. Monetary policy is one half of the problem, market controls and attempts to establish a planned economy are the other half.

[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;49678986]Want to see a prime example of the no true Scotsman fallacy? Point out socialist countries that have failed and watch people say "it wasn't REAL socialism".[/QUOTE] To a point, they're right, but they fail to acknowledge that the reasons those countries aren't true socialists stems from the nature of socialism. It just doesn't work. So people have to supplement it with authoritarianism and/or capitalism.

[QUOTE=sgman91;49679011]To a point, they're right, but they fail to acknowledge that the reasons those countries aren't true socialists stems from the nature of socialism. It just doesn't work. So people have to supplement it with authoritarianism and/or capitalism.[/QUOTE] Yes. To point out that there are no true socialist countries is to point out that a socialist country wouldn't even be a country.

[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;49673271]Gotta admit, I'm impressed they managed this. Takes some serious skill to fuck up THIS bad.[/QUOTE] Hardly. You put all your assets into one resource. That's a FUCKING awful idea

My friend lives there, he once snapchatted me his university getting tear-gassed through the windows. Apparently this was a biweekly occurrence. I really hope he's okay, I haven't heard from him in a while and he hasn't logged on steam recently. I know that not too long ago they shut his power off, his water had been off for a while though

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/rMAuS.jpg[/IMg] Can you really take this idiot seriously? He has no idea what he's saying it's like reading the comments on live leak. So against Socialism it's their new buzzword for any country that isn't suffering from capitalism. Ironically it's always from people who live with their parents lol [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Can we not do this, thanks." - Swebonny))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=Canary;49704780][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/rMAuS.jpg[/IMg] Can you really take this idiot seriously? He has no idea what he's saying it's like reading the comments on live leak. So against Socialism it's their new buzzword for any country that isn't suffering from capitalism. Ironically it's always from people who live with their parents lol[/QUOTE] Ok but who is it?

Sobotnik, he's infamous for that picture

Wow. Using an ancient picture to take down someone's argument. Aren't you a poster child for stunning intelligence.

Because irrelevant personal attacks are the foundation of any good argument :goodjob:

[QUOTE=Canary;49704780]stupidity[/QUOTE] What a worthless member of society you are.

I like how when countries like Venezuela and Greece are in deep shit and people say "this is what happens with socialist countries" people go, "it's not REAL socialism", and when asked to give an example of working socialism they say Sweden.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49678864]the government doesn't understand macroeconomics because they are substituting socialist policies for economic policies which work the fact that the government is full of socialists who genuinely believe that their socialist policies will work is the reason venezuela is such a shithole[/QUOTE] Except they aren't. Venezuela has never instituted a 'socialist economic policy', unless you are to consider social democracy or keynesianism socialist. Venezuela is, and was, state capitalist and an explicitly national project based on welfarism. The fact you are even speaking of printing money is a testament to how much we need to know about 'socialism' and laying it at the feet of Marxists. On that note it's kind of ironic your textbook socialist economic crisis of late features absolutely nothing unique, a capitalist economy can and does have the same problems and both governments will work very similarly in response. The socialist one even uses prices, determined by a market no less. However, a liberal government spending money it doesn't have is never indicting of a whole form of political thought, however. I think it's funny people in this thread are claiming no true scotsman when they're practicing newspeak. Essentially the definition of socialism being put forth is political or state control of the economy, which is neither true nor the original meaning. The best case scenario for this argument is against the populist political control over the economy of one elected party with a watered down left wing, rather nationalist program that already exists in conditions of isolation, poverty, and not to mention a terrible oil market. Indeed, if we are to remember Venezuela as some indictment for the last remnants and hopes of 'socialism' (said no one but liberal-capitalists), it cannot be separated from a tarnish on our system: energy interests & Saudi Arabia. On top of that, I find it pretty counter-productive to mock the populist orientation of the government and the argument that this let incompetent people into power, because exactly that sort of thing would only lend credence to the fact that Bolivarianism was an organic, mass-based response to the past mismanagement and failures of a more naked, liberal form of capitalism and the economically-minded plutocratic elites Sobotnik lauds. But let's be real, I don't think anyone with a brain actually believes Venezuela ever stood for anything let alone represents its failure. Venezuela finally DID become something, a socialist example, but exclusively for liberals. It's nothing more than something to browbeat someone with for remotely discussing violating liberal property rights and their precious investments. You want a revolutionary state based on workers' councils and common ownership? What are you, Venezuela? :v: It's almost comical, the dissonance. But the fallacy is real, as evidenced by the fact Sobotnik disagrees that reformist populism probably isn't damning of revolutionary Marxism (actually the opposite, somehow), and insists he knows the difference between the economy of Cuba and that of a social-democracy. [quote]Want to see a prime example of the no true Scotsman fallacy? Point out socialist countries that have failed and watch people say "it wasn't REAL socialism".[/quote] No offense, but if you want to see a prime example of the kind of quality of discussion to expect from FP when talking about this, your post is a fine reference.

[QUOTE=Canary;49704780][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/rMAuS.jpg[/IMg] Can you really take this idiot seriously? He has no idea what he's saying it's like reading the comments on live leak. So against Socialism it's their new buzzword for any country that isn't suffering from capitalism. Ironically it's always from people who live with their parents lol [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Can we not do this, thanks." - Swebonny))[/highlight][/QUOTE] You know, I read through the argument going on here in hopes of learning something about economics and I all that I gleaned was that neither side here is really interested in debate so much as proving how right they are, culminating in shit like this.

[QUOTE=Conscript;49706840]Except they aren't. Venezuela has never instituted a 'socialist economic policy', unless you are to consider social democracy or keynesianism socialist. Venezuela is, and was, state capitalist and an explicitly national project based on welfarism.[/QUOTE] the socialist party literally created workers councils/communes. virtually all of the policies undertaken in venezuela are not ones you would introduce with the goal of having a strong "capitalist" economy, since many large companies have either been nationalized, gone bankrupt, or have been forced to leave. an increasing share of the economy is directed by the state, which in turn is nominally owned and operated by the public. there aren't any "capitalists" in venezuela left because they've all either fled or gone bankrupt the rest of your post is largely going off on tangents the main point is that a group of socialists are utilizing policies common to many socialist parties, which are undertaken when they are in power the result is the economic and social deterioration of the country and effectively an entire generation being squandered. the venezuela of today is poorer, more violent, with poorer social and political rights and freedoms. healthcare has worsened, nutrition is worse, unemployment is worse, the country is a laughing stock, the country is now on the brink of total disaster price controls, nationalization, currency controls, establishing worker control, money printing, poor investments, land reform, requisitions, weakening civil society, nepotism, etc have all contributed and i lay the blame directly at the socialist party

[QUOTE=Conscript;49706840]stuff[/QUOTE] Please explain how an oil exporting country like Venezuela would have got rid of capitalism and how it would implement socialism correctly, in such a way that the country would end up not like it currently is. I mean, seriously, I'm really interested in hearing how these true socialists, opposite of the false socialists of Venezuela, would have made the country work.

The New York Times released a very interesting piece by a reporter travelling through Venezuela. Really gives you a picture of just how bad things have really gotten for people, and some of the things they go through just to get the essentials. It's available in Spnish as well. [URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/09/world/americas/a-reporter-travels-through-venezuela-a-country-teetering-on-the-brink.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0"]Link[/URL] Good luck to our Venezuelan facepunchers, this is a shit situation and I hope someone or something will be able to sort it out before the country descends into anarchy.

[QUOTE=Big Bang;49707366]Please explain how an oil exporting country like Venezuela would have got rid of capitalism and how it would implement socialism correctly, in such a way that the country would end up not like it currently is. I mean, seriously, I'm really interested in hearing how these true socialists, opposite of the false socialists of Venezuela, would have made the country work.[/QUOTE] its not so much socialism thats the problem, its Venezuela's economy, its not diversified at all, the only exports they have are raw materials, oil, and debt, there isn't any service economy to support anything other than oil, and ontop of that, the oil wells in venezuela are some of the most expensive to run in the world because they are poorly managed, outdated, and the way the government interacted with international oil firms basically has stopped any foreign investment in their system for fear of loosing their investment. socialism wasn't necessarily the problems the economy faces are the same states like Australia faces now that its a buyers market for energy and raw materials

[QUOTE=Sableye;49709073]its not so much socialism thats the problem, its Venezuela's economy, its not diversified at all, the only exports they have are raw materials, oil, and debt, there isn't any service economy to support anything other than oil, and ontop of that, the oil wells in venezuela are some of the most expensive to run in the world because they are poorly managed, outdated, and the way the government interacted with international oil firms basically has stopped any foreign investment in their system for fear of loosing their investment. socialism wasn't necessarily the problems the economy faces are the same states like Australia faces now that its a buyers market for energy and raw materials[/QUOTE] if having a nondiverse economy caused this, then why are imports so low despite demand being so high? why is petrol being subsidized at a massive loss? why has the service economy shrunk? why has manufacturing declined? why are industries pulling out? why has the monetary system become defunct? why has crime gone up and the officials become even more corrupt? the venezuelan economy is less diverse now, and virtually every other part of the economy has rotted or declined. saying that the lack of diversity of the venezuelan economy is why its in such trouble is to put the cart before the horse