• "Enough is enough" - German Politicians might have had enough with planned electronics obsolesce.
    58 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Psychokitten;40027692]Ford wasn't always like that. Back in the '80s it stood for [b]F[/b]ound [b]O[/b]n [b]R[/b]oad [b]D[/b]ead.[/QUOTE] Fix Or Repair Daily. [QUOTE=sgman91;40027539]If this passes prices will just go up because more expensive manufacturing materials and techniques will have to be used. If people wanted longer lasting products they would just buy products that are known to last longer. It's amazing to me that politicians think they know what people want more than the people themselves.[/QUOTE] European politicians have been known to exhibit common sense every once in a while. And yes, they [I]are[/I] people too.
[QUOTE=Stopper;40027738]European politicians have been known to exhibit common sense every once in a while. And yes, they [I]are[/I] people too.[/QUOTE] By saying it needs to be banned they are either assuming 1) People don't know what is good for them or 2) it is impossible to buy longer lasting products. I can't find a way to substantiate either of those. For example, I just recently got a Samsung Galaxy S III, but before that I had a Palm Pre, which lasted ~6 years. Products that last a long time are out there, but people don't seem to value that trait as much as other things. It seems to me that people buy new phones every 2 years or so. Because of this the lifespan of a phone doesn't really matter much.
[QUOTE=sgman91;40027768]By saying it needs to be banned they are either assuming 1) People don't know what is good for them or 2) it is impossible to buy longer lasting products. I can't find a way to substantiate either of those.[/QUOTE] 1) People know what's good for them. Not everyone can find the longest-lasting product out of the hundreds that exist in the market. 2) Most of the products aren't, ergo it's [I]hard[/I]. It doesn't have to be impossible to be impractical. I shouldn't have to go on the internet and conduct a research just to make sure the phone I'll buy won't brick itself in a year.
[QUOTE=Stopper;40027794]1) People know what's good for them. Not everyone can find the longest-lasting product out of the hundreds that exist in the market. 2) Most of the products aren't, ergo it's [I]hard[/I]. It doesn't have to be impossible to be impractical. I shouldn't have to go on the internet and conduct a research just to make sure the phone I'll buy won't brick itself in a year.[/QUOTE] We have many sites and groups that give reviews of tech products. It's not like people need to go look at each and every one. Yes, it's hard, but that could very much be an effect of people not buying the products that were well built and lasted a long time. If people put repairability and build quality high on their list of concerns they would demand that these sites review that part of the the product along with the tech specs. In fact, because of how markets work, it would be a very logical assumption to say that companies make products with worse manufacturing standards because the populace has valued cheap prices more than lifespan in the past.
Aren't they kinda preaching to the choir though? German manufacturing standards are generally already a standard for excellence.
[QUOTE=Desuh;40022515]How exactly are they preventing users from fixing their products themselves except making the warranty void? Depending on the device fixing it yourself can be impossible because one simply lacks the tools and knowledge. Don't they shoot themselves in the foot by making their products last less? If a brand has a reputation of making products with a very short lifespan I would avoid it.[/QUOTE] A very good example is that most tablets nowadays are held together by [B]tons[/B] of glue, so if you want to, for example, replace the screen, you have to get a heat gun to heat the glue, more of the special glue, try to not break the screen when melting the glue, etc, instead of just unscrewing a couple tiny screws and getting it out with some plectrums. In the worst cases you can find soldered ribbon cables, which are an absolute bitch to desolder and resolder, or even handle without breaking.
[QUOTE=Psychokitten;40027692]Ford wasn't always like that. Back in the '80s it stood for [B]F[/B]ound [B]O[/B]n [B]R[/B]oad [B]D[/B]ead.[/QUOTE] Early 80's Ford were. My mother had a Fiesta from that time, was a piece of shit that constantly had problems. And they were almost always related to the suspension or the brakes.
My HTC (Desire S) seems to be built really well - i've dropped it off my bed, i've accidentally thrown it against the wall, and it hasnt even cracked, and the only problems it has had have been OS related Whereas i've got friends who dropped their iPhone about 20cm and the screen has practically disintegrated
[QUOTE=sgman91;40027819]We have many sites and groups that give reviews of tech products. It's not like people need to go look at each and every one. Yes, it's hard, but that could very much be an effect of people not buying the products that were well built and lasted a long time. If people put repairability and build quality high on their list of concerns they would demand that these sites review that part of the the product along with the tech specs. In fact, because of how markets work, it would be a very logical assumption to say that companies make products with worse manufacturing standards because the populace has valued cheap prices more than lifespan in the past.[/QUOTE] The EU is generally incredibly supportive of consumer rights and is often protective of consumers and essentially puts them in a role of children that no no better. (German doctrine generally sees the average consumer as a blatant idiot, while french assumes they are somewhat smarter) So overall the chance of an alternative may not be sufficient, unless the alternative is easy to find and readilly available and affordable. EDIT Generally speaking, there's families where traditional product obsolency doesn't terribly apply. Phones are a fairly good example, since obsolence there is essentially driven by a massive spec war more than anything else. So the phone itself will generally not break down, but it will become obsolete fairly soon. There's also the importance of contract phones which drive a huge overturn of phones. The more traditional obsolency, of the product actually breaking down is more common among other devices, laptops are a pretty common area.
Unfortunately, I have strong doubts this will succeed in any real way. The problem 'these days' is that most devices and items people use day to day (from phones to food and even cars) are designed from the ground up to be high-turnover consumer items. The saying 'They don't build 'em like they used to' couldn't be more true in today's world. To completely backflip on the way things are produced today... well it's just an utterly mammoth undertaking, and I have a very hard time seeing it happen. To start re-engineering devices and building them to last longer, be built stronger, and have more on-going support is a pretty radical change from how things are mostly done right now, and it's one hell of a thing to try and do. I can't even count the amount of people I come into contact with each day who on one breath moan constantly about the poor quality or lack of long term durability of various items in their life, then on the next breath praise other aspects of these items and talk about how they can't wait for the new X or Y to come out. This is a much bigger problem than I think most people realise, the world in general is just DIFFERENT now. We're essentially a consumerist society for the most part...
[QUOTE=Sir M;40028251]My HTC (Desire S) seems to be built really well - i've dropped it off my bed, i've accidentally thrown it against the wall, and it hasnt even cracked, and the only problems it has had have been OS related Whereas i've got friends who dropped their iPhone about 20cm and the screen has practically disintegrated[/QUOTE] The same for my SII, but still, I wouldn't mind being able to repair it, or get someone else to cheaply repair it instead of replacements. The most robust electronic thing I know is my parent's microwave, which is 26 years old and still works perfectly. Their washing machine, fridge-freezer and cars from then are long gone, and this thing is still going. Modern electronics like that would be good (though I know expensive).
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;40028020]Aren't they kinda preaching to the choir though? German manufacturing standards are generally already a standard for excellence.[/QUOTE] That's a thing of the past. Nowadays if only one part of a product was manufactured in Germany it can receive the "Made in Germany" tag, downgrading its reputation. I get what you're saying, though.
[QUOTE=latin_geek;40028190]A very good example is that most tablets nowadays are held together by [B]tons[/B] of glue, so if you want to, for example, replace the screen, you have to get a heat gun to heat the glue, more of the special glue, try to not break the screen when melting the glue, etc, instead of just unscrewing a couple tiny screws and getting it out with some plectrums. In the worst cases you can find soldered ribbon cables, which are an absolute bitch to desolder and resolder, or even handle without breaking.[/QUOTE] You thinking of the Surface Pro? That thing seems to have more glue in it than is totally necessary. Plus i gather iPad repair is a right bastard to do as well.
[QUOTE=zombini;40024552]I disagree, we had a little Ford car, 2 door, tiny little fucker, and it died a few weeks ago, but it had over 300K miles on it, and there's many more cars here that have that or more miles, and work fine. It was the second car we've ever had that broke the 300K mark, and every car we've ever owned has made it past 100K just fine. I don't think cars have any sort of Planned Obsolescence, at least then.[/QUOTE] Cars have somewhat planned obsolescence, but for less malicious reasons. Cars are constantly under stress, the metal corrodes, parts rub and grind against each other, and the bits and pieces get damaged over time. Regularly servicing, changing the oil, and just generally taking care of your car will do wonders in increasing its lifespan. The reason old cars seemed to last longer is because previous generations actually took care of their stuff.
[QUOTE=wraithcat;40028456] ([B]German doctrine generally sees the average consumer as a blatant idiot[/B], while french assumes they are somewhat smarter) [/QUOTE] this is a smart thing to do.
We have our problems but German politicians are often the ones to gravitate toward the extreme issues and take a stance on it. Glad to see they aren't shying away from this.
Good on 'em. I'm tired of having to replace my electronics every couple of years or worrying that my old, reliable ones are eventually going to conk out and force me into a new, short-lived replacement. Let's hope this sees a return to appliances and electronics that last long enough to become hand-me-downs.[QUOTE=Desuh;40022515]How exactly are they preventing users from fixing their products themselves except making the warranty void? Depending on the device fixing it yourself can be impossible because one simply lacks the tools and knowledge. Don't they shoot themselves in the foot by making their products last less? If a brand has a reputation of making products with a very short lifespan I would avoid it.[/QUOTE] And yet you've got plenty of stuff in your own home that doesn't live very long. It's been something many people have ranted about for 15 or 20 years now.
We've had problems with this, mostly small defects that cost ridiculous amounts to fix. The on/off button on one of our computers is broken because of a cheap plastic spring, but at least the switch is still reachable and it can auto-start on power on. I also recently looked up the (confidential) service manual for my laptop because I wanted to clean it. There's no glued parts apart from some tape to isolate a few components, but there are non-standard screws and I'd have to completely disassemble it and probably pry out the keyboard just to get rid of the dust. [QUOTE=Van-man;40022003]I would appreciate if someone who's fluent with translating German to english would help at translating the documents attached to the linked article: [URL]http://www.murks-nein-danke.de/blog/download/Studie-Obsoleszenz-BT-GRUENE-vorabversion.pdf[/URL] [URL]http://www.murks-nein-danke.de/blog/download/Fachgespräch Vortrag Schridde.pdf[/URL][/QUOTE] The first link has a list of common unnecessary defects, latent defects and plain manipulation. There's also some downright infuriating stuff about how manufacturers manipulate repair orders and prevent repairs of smaller components to inflate prices. It's a lot of text though. You can try Google Translate on pages ~25-55 to get the practical information.
Is there evidence that planned obsolescence is a real thing? I mean, really, a modern smartphone is just a little more complicated than a transistor radio and consequently a little harder to repair or fix with home tools. They're also chock-full of sensitive components that make them more fragile than their older counterparts. You look at cars, a '60s Buick is a brick. It's dead simple, it can keep trucking for thousands upon thousands of miles, and it can get in a minor collision without even denting. But unlike a modern car, it's more likely to kill you thanks to a lack of crumple zones (modern cars are designed to deform to absorb impact, not to force you to buy repairs), and with no computer control it's clunkier, harder to use, less efficient, and poorer at self-diagnosis. It might not need repair because a piece of electronics gave out, but it won't detect that you're skidding and apply ABS to prevent you from hitting a tree at 60mph either. Today's consumers as a whole care about gadgets and cool toys more than durability and longevity, and so modern consumer electronics are chock-full of extremely sensitive and short-lived components. You can buy yourself something like a dumb Nokia cell phone and it'll last years or even decades, and make and receive calls just fine. It might not be able to function as a map or browse the Internet, but that's the price of durability.
[QUOTE=Ray-The-Sun;40022164]And then they'd have to actually make good, reliable devices! Or, far more likely, they'll just [I]stop selling them in the EU[/I].[/QUOTE] Hahahhahahahaaha yeah ok and lose billions in sales good idea you should be a CEO
[QUOTE=catbarf;40030145]Is there evidence that planned obsolescence is a real thing?[/quote] It may not be documented, but just look at how many 30 year old desk fans still operate flawlessly while few 15 year old fans still do...and even fewer 5 year old fans work. You can see the clear decline in build quality over the years, even factoring out technological changes. Things just aren't built to last anymore, mostly because people are so used to "Bah throw it away buy a new one". We live in a throwaway society and the lifespan of most consumer(God I hate that word) products reflects that. [quote]I mean, really, a modern smartphone is just a little more complicated than a transistor radio and consequently a little harder to repair or fix with home tools. They're also chock-full of sensitive components that make them more fragile than their older counterparts.[/quote] And yet the parts that most commonly need attention are present in the old dumbphones. Screens crack, batteries conk out, sim card contacts get dirty....in my Droid 3 I can replace the battery and clean the contacts in one smooth motion, but in any iDevice I need proprietary tools to split the damn thing open and microsoldering equipment to replace the battery. That's what's meant by "user-serviceable." You should be able to do simple things like screen replacements, battery replacements, dust cleanings and the like with basic hand tools. [quote] (modern cars are designed to deform to absorb impact, not to force you to buy repairs)[/quote] While true, some of the prices for commonly banged up bits make you wonder. I lost my first car to its airbags, not the collision itself. The body damage I did was no more than $500 and there was zero structural damage. Alignment was still perfect, hell I drove the thing after the fact and I couldn't tell it had been crashed if it wasn't for the airbag poking out of the wheel. Yet, the driver's side airbag cost $750. Passenger airbag? $1250. Insurance, because of the airbags alone, wrote the car off, as it was only worth $2,000 at most pre-crash. Had the airbags not deployed they would have fixed the car, and the crash was at such a low speed that I didn't need the airbags at all. No more than 15MPH, surviveable even in that '60 Buick. If airbags and bumper covers cost a third as much as they do now I might could concede this, but looking at how absurdly expensive certain one-use items are and how trigger happy the airbag systems are in a lot of cars I can't help but wonder if they're designed to total out in minor fender-benders so you'll have to replace it despite there being no damage to any important systems or the unibody itself. [quote]and with no computer control it's clunkier[/quote] Shouldn't be. If it is it needs work. Those old boats are the epitome of smooth, you can run over a smart car in one of them and not feel a damn thing. [quote] harder to use[/quote] Literally so. I don't think they had power steering or power brakes :v: [quote]poorer at self-diagnosis.[/quote] Back then people took care of their cars and didn't expect the car to do everything for them, so the car didn't need to diagnose itself. The owner would realize something was up and fix it while it was still a minor issue. [quote] but it won't detect that you're skidding and apply ABS to prevent you from hitting a tree at 60mph either.[/quote] Funnily enough on ice and snow ABS will ensure you hit that tree anyway. [quote]Today's [B]consumers[/B] as a whole care about gadgets and cool toys more than durability and longevity, and so modern [B]consumer[/B] electronics are chock-full of extremely sensitive and short-lived components.[/quote] And here in lies the problem. Consumers. I fucking hate that word. It implies that someone doesn't give a shit what they buy, that they just blindly buy whatever's put in front of them. It implies they don't care about anything beyond it being the shiney new thing. If we all stopped being consumers and started buying smart this would disappear overnight. Lifespans of literally everything would shoot right back up to where they were 40 or 50 years ago, back up to the point where our grandchildren can still use what we bought new because it still works just damn fine. The main reason we have this planned obsolescence bullshit, the main reason we've got [I]consumer[/I] goods, is because we treat everything like a consumable. It's really up to the buying public to stop being a consumer. [quote] It might not be able to function as a map or browse the Internet, but that's the price of durability.[/QUOTE] Except it isn't. Or, at least, it shouldn't be. I have a Moto Droid 1 on my desk that works flawlessly. Nothing wrong with it. My Droid 3 is as reliable as the Droid 1 was, and every bit as durable. It [i]is[/i] possible to build a smartphone that lives as long as one of those Nokias.
I think people are seriously overestimating the capabilities of the user when it comes to "user serviceable" equipment. The average user will be able to replace a battery, but a cracked screen? reseat components on the mainboard? (Or even better, solder components <1mm)
[QUOTE=TheDecryptor;40030355]I think people are seriously overestimating the capabilities of the user when it comes to "user serviceable" equipment. The average user will be able to replace a battery, but a cracked screen? reseat components on the mainboard? (Or even better, solder components <1mm)[/QUOTE] To an extent, but it's not strictly just users servicing stuff. Let me give you an example. Thinkpads. They are the definition of easy to fix. You can replace practically anything on most thinkpads with less than 10 screws, all of which are philips. Oh, and most of the screws are also slotted so you can easily use a small flathead too. The battery is zero screws. The hard drive is 1 screw. Changing the keyboard is something like 4-6 depending on the model. Sure it's ridiculous to expect that everyone know how to reseat a processor correctly, but anyone with an ounce of DIY mentality can take apart a thinkpad, clean it, and put it back together, and in terms of usefulness for businesses and colleges especially, it's convenient to have on site technicians repairing practically everything. It takes longer to run diagnostics to verify the machines after you repair them then it does to actually fix them. Meanwhile cheapo pieces of shit have unibody plastic designs with one time clip in everything that can't be taken apart ever, soldered components making upgrades/repairs impossible, and shitty designs that overheat.
It's not just consumer electronics. How many of you have a modern washing machine or dryer that has lasted 12+ years? It's getting very rare for them to last that long, especially front loading models. Those should be user servicable but you're lucky to even find the parts, let alone be able to get at them. I had an HP computer at one point. I wanted to change the motherboard after a year or two. Found out the old one was [B]riveted[/B] to the case. I had to buy a brand new case so I could install my new mobo.
People still mock me for using old shit but the reason is simply because it's so fucking simple to repair or replace parts because either they are screwed in or they are literally parts I can buy off ebay or digikey. I know first hand how much of a nightmare it is to detach a defective retina display from the glass face it is glued to. I also fucking hate software distributors who need their shit phoning home in order to work, only to either kill off the servers or go bankrupt without patching the whole lack of anything the software can authenticate with.
My grandparents have a fridge from the 1950's that still works perfectly and has never had to be repaired I think it was made in America too :O before all electronic items were produced by exploited Asian labor
[QUOTE=Desuh;40022188]Is planned electronics obsolesce really a thing? I always thought that it was something tinfoil hats thought existed.[/QUOTE] Yeah designing phones like greasy sausages that break if you drop them more than a foot, they completely overlooked that somehow.
[QUOTE=MIPS;40031004]People still mock me for using old shit but the reason is simply because it's so fucking simple to repair or replace parts because either they are screwed in or they are literally parts I can buy off ebay or digikey. I know first hand how much of a nightmare it is to detach a defective retina display from the glass face it is glued to. I also fucking hate software distributors who need their shit phoning home in order to work, only to either kill off the servers or go bankrupt without patching the whole lack of anything the software can authenticate with.[/QUOTE] Yeah, exactly. That's why I much prefer buying old stuff. Cars, appliances, electronics, if I can get one > 20 years old I will. I know full well the old one will last me [i]another[/i] 20+ years with basic maintenance, if that. And yeah, always online DRM is a bitch, but there's methods around that which I cannot name or link to as per forum rules. Heh.
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