US Senate rejects universal (expanded) background checks - Polidicks

[QUOTE=LordCrypto;40319365]and the alternative is having guns where the owner doesn't legally own it? no thanks gunfox[/QUOTE] But it will still happen whether it's illegal or not if it can't be enforced.

in california theres a 5150 which blocks you from purchasing a gun unless you have a hearing (anyone who spends time in a mental health facility) but guess what, go on craigslist, buy a gun, problem solved

[QUOTE=LordCrypto;40319398]in california theres a 5150 which blocks you from purchasing a gun unless you have a hearing (anyone who spends time in a mental health facility) but guess what, go on craigslist, buy a gun, problem solved[/QUOTE] Is a background check going to stop that? There's nobody overseeing the transfer and no way to make somebody oversee it.

[QUOTE=LordCrypto;40319365]and the alternative is having guns where the owner doesn't legally own it? no thanks gunfox[/QUOTE] Stop, just stop, please.

[QUOTE=Kopimi;40319252]ive walked into a phoenix gunshop and bought a gun without them ever requesting a background check. filled out my name and that but i still walked out with a gun and no background check[/QUOTE] So you openly admit you committed a crime and so did the FFL? Nice. I love federal offenses. Will you be turning yourself in to show current laws work and rat out this gun store?

[QUOTE=LordCrypto;40319365]and the alternative is having guns where the owner doesn't legally own it? no thanks gunfox[/QUOTE] I don't understand what you are saying. Doesn't legally own it in what fashion?

[QUOTE=HkSniper;40319422]So you openly admit you committed a crime?[/QUOTE] He openly admits he doesn't know a thing about the NICS system.

[QUOTE=Mr. Foster;40319330]He likely did not. He is either or lying, or is completely oblivious to what he did. The background check literally takes less then two minutes on the phone, then you leave the store with the gun right after (assuming you are not put on a hold, or your state has a mandatory wait).[/QUOTE] arizona doesn't have a mandatory wait so he was probably checked after he filled out his form.

[QUOTE=LordCrypto;40319398]in california theres a 5150 which blocks you from purchasing a gun unless you have a hearing (anyone who spends time in a mental health facility) but guess what, go on craigslist, buy a gun, problem solved[/QUOTE] Dear god, learn before you speak: [url]http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs#14[/url] In California, ALL transactions, private party included, have to be conducted by an FFL. If that doesn't happen, it's an illegal transaction by BOTH parties. In turn, BOTH are criminals.

[QUOTE=Kopimi;40319252]ive walked into a phoenix gunshop and bought a gun without them ever requesting a background check. filled out my name and that but i still walked out with a gun and no background check[/QUOTE] they usually run it while you're waiting, it doesnt usually take more than like 5-10 minutes so you probably didnt even know they ran it and if you filled out the 4473 then they must have run it and if they didnt you're in possession of a gun you aren't supposed to own so you should probably turn it in to the cops

[QUOTE=Mr. Foster;40319445]Dear god, learn before you speak: [url]http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs#14[/url] In California, ALL transactions, private party included, have to be conducted by an FFL. If that doesn't happen, it's an illegal transaction by BOTH parties. In turn, BOTH are criminals.[/QUOTE] illegal doesn't mean the gun is instantly going to vanish from your possession, you still have it as long as you aren't caught or haven't turned it in to the police.

[QUOTE=Timebomb575;40319475]they usually run it while you're waiting, it doesnt usually take more than like 5-10 minutes so you probably didnt even know they ran it and if you filled out the 4473 then they must have run it and if they didnt you're in possession of a gun you aren't supposed to own so you should probably turn it in to the cops[/QUOTE] If he didn't, he doesn't own the gun period, it would be considered stolen by the ATF.

[QUOTE=Kopimi;40319252]ive walked into a phoenix gunshop and bought a gun without them ever requesting a background check. filled out my name and that but i still walked out with a gun and no background check[/QUOTE] And the last 2 gun shows I've been too I walked in and bought a gun, filled out a background check form, passed it, and walked out.

[QUOTE=erfinjerfin;40319481]illegal doesn't mean the gun is instantly going to vanish from your possession[/QUOTE] Point missed entirely. Private Party sales in California are already regulated. What he said just proves that trying to regulate them doesn't work.

[QUOTE=Timebomb575;40319475]they usually run it while you're waiting, it doesnt usually take more than like 5-10 minutes so you probably didnt even know they ran it and if you filled out the 4473 then they must have run it and if they didnt you're in possession of a gun you aren't supposed to own so you should probably turn it in to the cops[/QUOTE] nah they straight handed me the thing and let me walk out while they went in the back to handle the paperwork. when im wrong im wrong tho, so i was completely wrong about federal background checks and thats my bad. ill be calling in a report on the shop this weekend for letting me out of the shop before running anything

[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;40319487]And the last 2 gun shows I've been too I walked in and bought a gun, filled out a background check form, passed it, and walked out.[/QUOTE] Anecdote

[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;40319487]And the last 2 gun shows I've been too I walked in and bought a gun, filled out a background check form, passed it, and walked out.[/QUOTE] ill admit i was wrong about federal checks but what is your point here? ive run into gun shows and nabbed a gun without telling the dude my name so whats your point? gun shows are still almost entirely unregulated because of private sale. you just ask the dude if he's FFL and if he says yes you can say "not interested" and find someone else

[QUOTE=T2L_Goose;40319301]#1: The second amendment doesn't exist for home defense or hunting or whatever. Anyone that says that doesn't know what they're talking about. (not saying you don't know what you're talking about, I mean the people who use that as a way to defend it). Its purpose is to allow the citizens to have a way to fight back against the government if it were to turn oppressive. Do I think that's happening? No, but that is the reason it was created. The founders came from a country where they [B]believed[/B] they were being oppressed. #2: Banning Assault Style weapons and high capacity magazines will not stop mass shootings. The VTech shooting was done with 2 pistols and 15 round mags. People who want to kill other people will do it. You cannot deter them. It's a reality of life. The Boston tragedy shows this. Using a pressure cooker and $100 of explosives and other items, someone was able to kill and maim a lot of people. All the bans would do is punish responsible and law abiding gun owners who enjoy their hobby in a safe and responsible manner.[/QUOTE] I wasn't saying I was for banning "assault-style" weapons; I was saying that they are a bit too "extravagant" and complex when all you really need is just your average pistol. To be fair an automatic weapon feels "out of place" in somewhere that isn't a warzone or a place that needs a strong defence. Like you said, prohibiting automatics or hi-caps won't do jack to prevent shootings when the instigator could just get some pistols or a shotgun. Hell, even if guns were banned altogether, someone would simply buy a chainsaw or a knife or an axe, or even learn to make explosives.

[QUOTE=Kopimi;40319511]nah they straight handed me the thing and let me walk out while they went in the back to handle the paperwork. when im wrong im wrong tho, so i was completely wrong about federal background checks and thats my bad. ill be calling in a report on the shop this weekend for letting me out of the shop before running anything[/QUOTE] No legitimate shop would have let you leave without the check being called in. It was likely done, and you were just not aware.

[QUOTE=Kopimi;40319520]ill admit i was wrong about federal checks but what is your point here? ive run into gun shows and nabbed a gun without telling the dude my name so whats your point? gun shows are still almost entirely unregulated because of private sale. you just ask the dude if he's FFL and if he says yes you can say "not interested" and find someone else[/QUOTE] My point is that gun shows aren't entirely unregulated. Past 2 times I was in one everyone there was making you fill out the background check forms, including non-ffl's.

[QUOTE=Kopimi;40319520]ill admit i was wrong about federal checks but what is your point here? ive run into gun shows and nabbed a gun without telling the dude my name so whats your point? gun shows are still almost entirely unregulated because of private sale. you just ask the dude if he's FFL and if he says yes you can say "not interested" and find someone else[/QUOTE] no legislation could fix that problem because there aren't enough regulators to properly enforce background checks between private citizens. [editline]17th April 2013[/editline] i mean yea you could try and crack down on gun shows(i think they have been trying iirc), but then people just start finding new ways to sell 'em.

I have pretty ambiguous opinions on most of this. I can't endorse European style Gun Control and bans because there are already 300 million guns in the country, but I can't endorse loosening gun laws or ONLY looking at mental health. But this is basic. How could anyone vote against expanded background checks? Want to defend yourself or shoot for hunt or for sport? Sure! Let's just make sure you are not a criminal or insane first. This is basic, and the Senate is mentally defunct.

[QUOTE=person11;40319547]I have pretty ambiguous opinions on most of this. I can't endorse European style Gun Control and bans because there are already 300 million guns in the country, but I can't endorse loosening gun laws or ONLY looking at mental health. But this is basic. How could anyone vote against expanded background checks? Want to defend yourself or shoot for hunt or for sport? Sure! Let's just make sure you are not a criminal or insane first. This is basic, and the Senate is mentally defunct.[/QUOTE] Read the thread? They already run a check for that.

[QUOTE=person11;40319547]I have pretty ambiguous opinions on most of this. I can't endorse European style Gun Control and bans because there are already 300 million guns in the country, but I can't endorse loosening gun laws or ONLY looking at mental health. But this is basic. How could anyone vote against expanded background checks? Want to defend yourself or shoot for hunt or for sport? Sure! Let's just make sure you are not a criminal or insane first. This is basic, and the Senate is mentally defunct.[/QUOTE] i think the problem is that it creates some registry or something and people don't really want their names in federal registries, and with good reason. [editline]17th April 2013[/editline] i mean i wouldn't want my name put into a federal database for exercising one of my rights.

[QUOTE=person11;40319547]I have pretty ambiguous opinions on most of this. I can't endorse European style Gun Control and bans because there are already 300 million guns in the country, but I can't endorse loosening gun laws or ONLY looking at mental health. But this is basic. How could anyone vote against expanded background checks? Want to defend yourself or shoot for hunt or for sport? Sure! Let's just make sure you are not a criminal or insane first. This is basic, and the Senate is mentally defunct.[/QUOTE] Except, the proposed bill would have done none of this soooo, what's the problem? The people posting in this thread that are against what the Senate has done have no clue about the bill, what it entailed, and what already happens in our country.

[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;40319538]My point is that gun shows aren't entirely unregulated. Past 2 times I was in one everyone there was making you fill out the background check forms, including non-ffl's.[/QUOTE] cool so you found some people who chose to put you through FFL. doesn't really matter unless we're just going to stop having laws and just rely on people to do the right thing though? if private sale without any registration or anything is allowed then theres a serious issue with how easy it is for anyone to pick up a firearm discretely and quickly. [QUOTE=yawmwen;40319539]no legislation could fix that problem because there aren't enough regulators to properly enforce background checks between private citizens. [editline]17th April 2013[/editline] i mean yea you could try and crack down on gun shows(i think they have been trying iirc), but then people just start finding new ways to sell 'em.[/QUOTE] like what ways? i don't want to have to type out a big paragraph explaining this for like the 100th time but the black market isn't a magical counterargument against gun control. outlawing private sale (forcing it to be run through an FFL) makes it a lot harder for the average dude to just pick up a weapon. can he find some shady guy at the gun show or craigslist who is willing to sell, non FFL? yeah, but so can the ATF, who can then arrest him

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40319567]i think the problem is that it creates some registry or something and people don't really want their names in federal registries, and with good reason. [editline]17th April 2013[/editline] i mean i wouldn't want my name put into a federal database for exercising one of my rights.[/QUOTE] doesn't filing taxes, having a drivers license and being born / issued an SSN and birth cert mean having your name in a federal registry?

[QUOTE=Aman VII;40318979] also just on a constitutional rights basis: universal background checks would go directly against this[/QUOTE] your constitution is dumb stop referring to it as a get out of jail card

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40319567]i think the problem is that it creates some registry or something and people don't really want their names in federal registries, and with good reason. [editline]17th April 2013[/editline] i mean i wouldn't want my name put into a federal database for exercising one of my rights.[/QUOTE] I'd be fine with it. Our names are already in countless databases for much lesser things than owning something you can use to murder someone with. [QUOTE=dogmachines;40319559]Read the thread? They already run a check for that.[/QUOTE] There are too many ways in which one can buy a gun without any checks, such as certain gun shows and private markets. I know that there are already checks in place, I would like them to be more thorough.

[QUOTE=Eltro102;40319601]your constitution is dumb stop referring to it as a get out of jail card[/QUOTE] The Bill of Rights isn't a list of allowed rights by the state. It's a statement of fact of what human rights we have.