US Senate rejects universal (expanded) background checks - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;40319615]The Bill of Rights isn't a list of allowed rights by the state. It's a statement of fact of what human rights we have.[/QUOTE] "this piece of paper written hundreds of years ago by slaveowners which has required numerous additions and amendments and which forgot to give black people the right to be human and women the right to vote is infallible and youre an unamerican idiot if you disagree" [editline]17th April 2013[/editline] if you have to fall back on "unconstitutional" to explain why something is bad for the country i think you're arguing in the wrong direction

[QUOTE=Eltro102;40319601]your constitution is dumb stop referring to it as a get out of jail card[/QUOTE] Clearly we disagree, as most Americans seem to be rather fond of the document.

[QUOTE=person11;40319612]I'd be fine with it. Our names are already in countless databases for much lesser things than owning something you can use to murder someone with. There are too many ways in which one can buy a gun without any checks, such as certain gun shows and private markets. I know that there are already checks in place, I would like them to be more thorough.[/QUOTE] But how do you enforce a law that affects a private transfer? It's a guy handing someone else a gun and that guy handing them cash.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;40319615]The Bill of Rights isn't a list of allowed rights by the state. It's a statement of fact of what human rights we have.[/QUOTE] then it is a wrong statement?? gun ownership should be a privilege, not a right

[QUOTE=GunFox;40319641]Clearly we disagree, as most Americans seem to be rather fond of the document.[/QUOTE] ok??

[QUOTE=Kopimi;40319631]"this piece of paper written hundreds of years ago by slaveowners which has required numerous additions and amendments and which forgot to give black people the right to be human and women the right to vote is infallible and youre an unamerican idiot if you disagree" [editline]17th April 2013[/editline] if you have to fall back on "unconstitutional" to explain why something is bad for the country i think you're arguing in the wrong direction[/QUOTE] Except the amendments provided more protections for citizens, not less. The constitution has expanded the shield, whereas you seek to diminish it. You wish to deprive people of rights and yet you have the audacity to pretend you have the high road? You don't. Get over it.

[QUOTE=dogmachines;40319644]But how do you enforce a law that affects a private transfer? It's a guy handing someone else a gun and that guy handing them cash.[/QUOTE] To the best of our ability. Difficulty should not dissuade the largest government in the world from trying to keep people from privately selling or transferring weapons without some sort of regulation.

[QUOTE=dogmachines;40319644]But how do you enforce a law that affects a private transfer? It's a guy handing someone else a gun and that guy handing them cash.[/QUOTE] you put in place extremely harsh penalties (really bad penalties) for violating that law as a deterrent and set up sting operations to catch those that are selling these weapons. not everyone is a seasoned criminal. most of the people selling guns privately are just regular dudes who feel like selling their gun for some cash. if you make it illegal and rather likely that you will get caught at any moment the market for those private sales shrinks dramatically

[QUOTE=Eltro102;40319668]then it is a wrong statement?? gun ownership should be a privilege, not a right[/QUOTE] Technically it already is a privilege. There's quite a few things you can do to make it illegal to possess a gun.

[QUOTE=Eltro102;40319670]ok??[/QUOTE] Seeing as the governed remain fond of the document, using it as a "get out of jail free" card, as you put it, makes sense. Unless you wish to impose laws against the will of the people, which would be tyranny, in which case I would recommend re-thinking attempting tyrannical action against an armed population.

[QUOTE=GunFox;40319671]Except the amendments provided more protections for citizens, not less. The constitution has expanded the shield, whereas you seek to diminish it. You wish to deprive people of rights and yet you have the audacity to pretend you have the high road? You don't. Get over it.[/QUOTE] what are you talking about lol i'm saying the constitution clearly isn't infallible and it has plenty of issues with it that we've already acknowledged. i never came close to implying i have the "high road" i'm just saying that crying "its unconstitutional" doesn't mean anything

[QUOTE=GunFox;40319671]Except the amendments provided more protections for citizens, not less. The constitution has expanded the shield, whereas you seek to diminish it. You wish to deprive people of rights and yet you have the audacity to pretend you have the high road? You don't. Get over it.[/QUOTE] The Constitution is a great document that deserves to continue being great by being modified to suit the modern era, in which acquiring a gun is much easier.

[QUOTE=Kopimi;40319594] like what ways? i don't want to have to type out a big paragraph explaining this for like the 100th time but the black market isn't a magical counterargument against gun control. outlawing private sale (forcing it to be run through an FFL) makes it a lot harder for the average dude to just pick up a weapon. can he find some shady guy at the gun show or craigslist who is willing to sell, non FFL? yeah, but so can the ATF, who can then arrest him[/QUOTE] it will certainly make it harder, it will also drive up illegal gun costs. the latter can create an absolute nightmare for law enforcement in a country with >300mil guns. [QUOTE=Kopimi;40319600]doesn't filing taxes, having a drivers license and being born / issued an SSN and birth cert mean having your name in a federal registry?[/QUOTE] birth cert and license is state run i believe. ssn and federal taxes are iffy but i don't think they are run in a way with incredibly easily identifiable information. i mean your ssn is literally just a name and a number. and either way i don't like these things, especially considering banks/employers can use your ssn to decide whether you get a house, apartment, or job, it allows creditors to hunt people, etc. just because my name is on a federal registry doesn't mean i want to be put on more. how would you feel if your name was put on a terrorist watch list for buying the wrong groceries(something that already happens). just because the government already tracks you doesn't mean you should be happy with them demanding more information that they can use for whatever reason they deem fit.

[QUOTE=dogmachines;40319682]Technically it already is a privilege. There's quite a few things you can do to make it illegal to possess a gun.[/QUOTE] then why do people feel it is their god/obama given right to own a gun?? (((it isn't and shouldn't be)))

[QUOTE=Kopimi;40319678]you put in place extremely harsh penalties (really bad penalties) for violating that law as a deterrent and set up sting operations to catch those that are selling these weapons. not everyone is a seasoned criminal. most of the people selling guns privately are just regular dudes who feel like selling their gun for some cash. if you make it illegal and rather likely that you will get caught at any moment the market for those private sales shrinks dramatically[/QUOTE] So you make it illegal for a guy to sell a gun(with no harmful intent) to another guy who also probably doesn't have harmful intent. What have you accomplished besides wasting resources that could make a bigger difference elsewhere?

[QUOTE=GunFox;40319691]Seeing as the governed remain fond of the document, using it as a "get out of jail free" card, as you put it, makes sense. Unless you wish to impose laws against the will of the people, which would be tyranny, in which case I would recommend re-thinking attempting tyrannical action against an armed population.[/QUOTE] yes im sure thats what eltro is saying or maybe hes saying, if people vote in favor of something that is technically "unconstitutional", we just should go ahead and pass it and not get hinged on the fact that an old, flawed bit of paper disagrees

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40319701]birth cert and license is state run i believe. ssn and federal taxes are iffy but i don't think they are run in a way with incredibly easily identifiable information. i mean your ssn is literally just a name and a number. and either way i don't like these things, especially considering banks/employers can use your ssn to decide whether you get a house, apartment, or job, it allows creditors to hunt people, etc. just because my name is on a federal registry doesn't mean i want to be put on more. how would you feel if your name was put on a terrorist watch list for buying the wrong groceries(something that already happens). just because the government already tracks you doesn't mean you should be happy with them demanding more information that they can use for whatever reason they deem fit.[/QUOTE] paranoid as hell dude

[QUOTE=ironman17;40319524]I wasn't saying I was for banning "assault-style" weapons; I was saying that they are a bit too "extravagant" and complex when all you really need is just your average pistol. To be fair an automatic weapon feels "out of place" in somewhere that isn't a warzone or a place that needs a strong defence. Like you said, prohibiting automatics or hi-caps won't do jack to prevent shootings when the instigator could just get some pistols or a shotgun. Hell, even if guns were banned altogether, someone would simply buy a chainsaw or a knife or an axe, or even learn to make explosives.[/QUOTE] Cool. Too bad that automatic weapons aren't classified as assault weapons under the proposed law.

[QUOTE=Eltro102;40319704]then why do people feel it is their god/obama given right to own a gun?? (((it isn't and shouldn't be)))[/QUOTE] Because until I commit a felony or become mentally unsound, it is my right to own a gun without explaining why I need it to you, the government, or anyone else.

[QUOTE=GunFox;40319641]Clearly we disagree, as most Americans seem to be rather fond of the document.[/QUOTE] i think most americans are rather fond of it because we are indoctrinated to see it as some infallible scripture that makes our lives better. the constitution has/had a lot of rubbish. the argument should be whether the right to carry personal belongings is moral, not constitutional.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40319701]it will certainly make it harder, it will also drive up illegal gun costs. the latter can create an absolute nightmare for law enforcement in a country with >300mil guns. birth cert and license is state run i believe. ssn and federal taxes are iffy but i don't think they are run in a way with incredibly easily identifiable information. i mean your ssn is literally just a name and a number. and either way i don't like these things, especially considering banks/employers can use your ssn to decide whether you get a house, apartment, or job, it allows creditors to hunt people, etc. just because my name is on a federal registry doesn't mean i want to be put on more. how would you feel if your name was put on a terrorist watch list for buying the wrong groceries(something that already happens). just because the government already tracks you doesn't mean you should be happy with them demanding more information that they can use for whatever reason they deem fit.[/QUOTE] yeah but in this case i think putting my name on a registry for owning a gun is reasonable. if you disagree cool, vote in opposition to me, but i'm fine with it and i think it should be mandatory. i'll definitely vote against the terrorist watch list groceries thing though

[QUOTE=Eltro102;40319718]paranoid as hell dude[/QUOTE] paranoia is useful when you live in a police state. [editline]17th April 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Kopimi;40319733]yeah but in this case i think putting my name on a registry for owning a gun is reasonable. if you disagree cool, vote in opposition to me, but i'm fine with it and i think it should be mandatory. i'll definitely vote against the terrorist watch list groceries thing though[/QUOTE] if you want your name on a registry for buying a gun, that's perfectly fine. don't force me to follow your ideals, though.

[QUOTE=dogmachines;40319706]So you make it illegal for a guy to sell a gun(with no harmful intent) to another guy who also probably doesn't have harmful intent. What have you accomplished besides wasting resources that could make a bigger difference elsewhere?[/QUOTE] you've made it significantly harder for people to bypass federal gun control restrictions aimed at lowering gun violence and helping prosecute perpetrators in the aftermath

[QUOTE=dogmachines;40319726]Because until I commit a felony or become mentally unsound, it is my right to own a gun without explaining why I need it to you, the government, or anyone else.[/QUOTE] because.........................................................................................?

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40319735]if you want your name on a registry for buying a gun, that's perfectly fine. don't force me to follow your ideals, though.[/QUOTE] well im sorry but imo the result of having consistent federal firearms regulation is more important to me than your right to feel sufficiently hidden while purchasing a machine that has the capacity to kill lots of people with great efficiency

[QUOTE=Eltro102;40319745]and the government shouldn't maintain a list of who owns a gun and who does not because.... .[/QUOTE] It's useless and is generally a tool used for confiscation. Didn't Canada drop their long gun registry because it didn't do anything?

[QUOTE=Kopimi;40319742]you've made it significantly harder for people to bypass federal gun control restrictions aimed at lowering gun violence and helping prosecute perpetrators in the aftermath[/QUOTE] yea and we've made drugs harder to get too. all it does is cause more violence when you create a larger black market with a lucrative commodity. it gives gangs an even bigger reason to shoot each other on the streets and gives police more cause to bust into potentially innocent people's houses and shoot them.

[QUOTE=dogmachines;40319726]Because until I commit a felony or become mentally unsound, it is my right to own a gun without explaining why I need it to you, the government, or anyone else.[/QUOTE] yeah and the question was why is that your right, other than "its constitutional"

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40319735]paranoia is useful when you live in a police state. [/QUOTE] dude the US is not a police state you're blowing this way out of proportion

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40319735]paranoia is useful when you live in a police state. [/QUOTE] lmao ok dude yeah you go fight the power