Donald Trump calls for 'ridiculous' new Boeing Air Force One to be scrapped
100 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Blizzerd;51486822]fleet sent out in small groups used as needed and just hide the exact plane the president is on.[/QUOTE]
They already do that with the current ones. They fly two 747's, plus a handful of Air Force cargo planes carrying the Presidents motorcade, and other security vehicles, and fuel wherever the president goes. The 747 that houses the President is not disclosed. The President is going to give a speech in some foreign country? An entourage of personnel go there first, secure the airport, fly in and monitor fuel specifically for it, and then the President and their entourage come later.
Here's a good show on it:
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q6lmXHfwQE[/media]
It's more than a means of transportation. It's a flying white house.
[QUOTE=OvB;51487080]It's more than a means of transportation. It's a flying white house.[/QUOTE]
Do you think Trump is aware of that?
[QUOTE=Paramud;51487136]Do you think Trump is aware of that?[/QUOTE]
I don't think he's aware of reality to be honest.
[QUOTE=OvB;51487080]They already do that with the current ones. They fly two 747's, plus a handful of Air Force cargo planes carrying the Presidents motorcade, and other security vehicles, and fuel wherever the president goes. The 747 that houses the President is not disclosed. The President is going to give a speech in some foreign country? An entourage of personnel go there first, secure the airport, fly in and monitor fuel specifically for it, and then the President and their entourage come later.
Here's a good show on it:
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q6lmXHfwQE[/media]
It's more than a means of transportation. It's a flying white house.[/QUOTE]
Is that really necessary though? I mean seriously...
I like this thread about it
[Media]https://twitter.com/SwiftOnSecurity/status/806244204116668416[/media]
Sick. The one who was accusing his opponent of having shit security is one upping her by having [i]shittier[/i] security.
He's so good at flip flops it's amazing.
[QUOTE=Map in a box;51486239]why would trump be allowed to use his private plane assuming there's no room for the press corps[/QUOTE]
He will just substitute them with Bannon. Tremendous savings!
[QUOTE=Mellowbloom;51486538]I feel like using your position to create a public outcry and then buying stocks once that companies value drops is somewhere in the region of 'something the leader of the country really really shouldn't be doing'[/QUOTE]
thankfully that's not the case?
Did you check the date of that post? The 787 had a good amount of controversy around it and they suffered for it, literally all this post is saying is that Trump invested after they shot themselves in the foot.
but yeah we gotta stir them controversies up sorry i forgot
[QUOTE=Blizzerd;51487593]Is that really necessary though? I mean seriously...[/QUOTE]
I don't think you fully understand just how much people want to kill the president.
[QUOTE=Blizzerd;51487593]Is that really necessary though? I mean seriously...[/QUOTE]
You're talking about the figurehead of the most powerful country on Earth. A flying fortress isn't out of the question when it comes to protecting our president.
[QUOTE=Blizzerd;51487593]Is that really necessary though? I mean seriously...[/QUOTE]
are security guards really necessary...
are bunkers really necessary...
yes, they are. so is this.
whoops I misread
Isn't he just commenting how an Airforce prediction of $1.65 billion turned into $4 billion. Which if it is the case, I would be asking questions too.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;51488501]Isn't he just commenting how an Airforce prediction of $1.65 billion turned into $4 billion. Which if it is the case, I would be asking questions too.[/QUOTE]
[URL="http://www.npr.org/2016/12/06/504554532/air-force-none-trump-threatens-to-cancel-new-presidential-plane-over-cost"]NPR attests Boeing's contract is only for $170 million.[/URL] I'm honestly not sure where the $4 billion figure came from.
[QUOTE=Chonch;51488545][URL="http://www.npr.org/2016/12/06/504554532/air-force-none-trump-threatens-to-cancel-new-presidential-plane-over-cost"]NPR attests Boeing's contract is only for $170 million.[/URL] I'm honestly not sure where the $4 billion figure came from.[/QUOTE]
Now thats made it even worse, where did the rest of the money go. If we took off the Boeing part if the number is correct, we are still looking at something $1.5 billion of the budget towards other contracts for the plane, still going up to $4 billion somehow.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;51488501]Isn't he just commenting how an Airforce prediction of $1.65 billion turned into $4 billion. Which if it is the case, I would be asking questions too.[/QUOTE]
...there's two Air Force n planes currently. If you're gonna overhaul one, the other is gonna get it too because they need to be capable of taking the place of each other should one fail.
[url]https://www.whitehouse.gov/1600/air-force-one[/url]
If one costs $1.65b, and another costs $1.65b that's still a solid $3.3b in costs, plus any extra work being done or other contract costs. It's hard to say exactly what could increase the cost as the exact contents of the planes is a pretty closely guarded secret. Shit, they could be doing extra work on the current ones as fallbacks if worst comes to the worst. Or just pocketing a few million.
Either way, Trump isn't going to save much money by killing the project in favour of using his vanity fuelled aircraft.
[editline]7th December 2016[/editline]
Assuming that $4b is even the actual projected cost. The only source for that number seems to be Trump. A man who can't even stop inflating his own worth. Let alone the cost of something he's demonising.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;51488565]Now thats made it even worse, where did the rest of the money go. If we took off the Boeing part if the number is correct, we are still looking at something $1.5 billion of the budget towards other contracts for the plane, still going up to $4 billion somehow.[/QUOTE]
Same article also talks about a project to upgrade Marine One, the President's helicopter fleet equivalent to Air Force One, and its cancellation after Obama spoke out about the $13 billion price tag. It does raise questions about where government contract funds go to, especially after that damning Pentagon report earlier today.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;51488573]...there's two Air Force n planes currently. If you're gonna overhaul one, the other is gonna get it too because they need to be capable of taking the place of each other should one fail.
[URL]https://www.whitehouse.gov/1600/air-force-one[/URL]
If one costs $1.65b, and another costs $1.65b that's still a solid $3.3b in costs, plus any extra work being done or other contract costs. It's hard to say exactly what could increase the cost as the exact contents of the planes is a pretty closely guarded secret. Shit, they could be doing extra work on the current ones as fallbacks if worst comes to the worst. Or just pocketing a few million.
Either way, Trump isn't going to save much money by killing the project in favour of using his vanity fuelled aircraft.
[editline]7th December 2016[/editline]
Assuming that $4b is even the actual projected cost. The only source for that number seems to be Trump. A man who can't even stop inflating his own worth. Let alone the cost of something he's demonising.[/QUOTE]
I didn't read anything about the project meaning separate planes as separate projects. As the wording says the prediction, but not whether per aircraft or in total.
[QUOTE=Chonch;51488592]Same article also talks about a project to upgrade Marine One, the President's helicopter fleet equivalent to Air Force One, and its cancellation after Obama spoke out about the $13 billion price tag. It does raise questions about where government contract funds go to, especially after that damning Pentagon report earlier today.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, saw that article. It really does make you think.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;51488600]I didn't read anything about the project meaning separate planes as separate projects. As the wording says the prediction, but not whether per aircraft or in total.[/QUOTE]
Considering "Air Force One" refers to any plane the president is on, and at this point in time generally refers to two individual planes kitted out for the task. It's safe to say that an "Air Force One" project is going to be replacing two planes. Not one.
No point replacing one with newer technology if you're going to leave the fallback plane in the past and vulnerable to any exploits the new one resolved.
A 747-8 currently costs [url=http://www.boeing.com/company/about-bca/#/prices]$378.5m[/url], add in whatever technologies are needed to make it safe, provide it defensive and potentially offensive options, and to totally refit the cabin to AFO spec, at government contractor pricing. I could see it reaching the $1.65b people are throwing around per plane. Military hardware isn't cheap as it is, let alone fitting it into aircraft designed for civilian use firstly.
[editline]7th December 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Chonch;51488592]Same article also talks about a project to upgrade Marine One, the President's helicopter fleet equivalent to Air Force One, and its cancellation after Obama spoke out about the $13 billion price tag. It does raise questions about where government contract funds go to, especially after that damning Pentagon report earlier today.[/QUOTE]
Government contract is always quite extortionate. It's just a side effect of how rigid contracting is for government projects. Once you've picked someone it's really fucking hard to convince other lawmakers to move away (either due to conflicts of interest, general lack of care or some delusion that you can't find better). So the company being contracted will just jack prices up.
Renegotiating contracts is a long and boring process with no visible benefits, can't be wasting tax payer money on that. No sir.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;51488648]Government contract is always quite extortionate. It's just a side effect of how rigid contracting is for government projects. Once you've picked someone it's really fucking hard to convince other lawmakers to move away (either due to conflicts of interest, general lack of care or some delusion that you can't find better). So the company being contracted will just jack prices up.
Renegotiating contracts is a long and boring process with no visible benefits, can't be wasting tax payer money on that. No sir.[/QUOTE]
I know how public contracting works. I'm not one to harp on an idea for being old, but Boeing's had a monopoly on this project for near half a century. If there's a possibility the Trump administration can work with Boeing to un-jack-up its prices, wouldn't that be worth investigating?
hes making up shit again, the airforce said its a 4 billion contract for 10 years of development, maintenance and upkeep. this is not marine 1 which was over budget and beyond time
is this going to be the trump admin though, where pence and his golden team dismantle america and reform it into the christian conservative megacorp while trump sifts through stacks of gov contracts tweeting about how much hes going to save renegotiating everything
[QUOTE=hexpunK;51488573]
Assuming that $4b is even the actual projected cost. The only source for that number seems to be Trump. A man who can't even stop inflating his own worth. Let alone the cost of something he's demonising.[/QUOTE]
Apparently no one really knows where the $4 billion valuation came from:
[url]https://www.yahoo.com/news/boeing-responds-after-trump-knocks-contract-for-air-force-one-jets-174029191.html[/url]
Unless he got confidential information about the real price that he ended up leaking.
[editline]6th December 2016[/editline]
Regardless, there's reports of Boeing over-inflating their spending in military contracts. Someone told me $40 a bolt bad, although that might have been an exaggeration as well.
[QUOTE=RocketSnail;51486520]At least we know Trump's presidency won't be wasting money on this unneeded expense[/QUOTE]
Unneeded expense? You do realize the money isnt being spent on solid gold toilet seats right? Airforce One is essentially a flying command center/communications bunker. It needs top of the line communications equipment so the president can coordinate the entire country effectively. It needs EMP shielding so in the off chance the US gets nuked Airforce One doesnt get downed. It probably has all kinds of countermeasures and noth defensive and offensive measures so that if the US goes to war or is attacked by someone with AA capabilities it wont be at nearly as much risk as a bog standard 787
If you're going to complain about the cost of american aircraft, look at something like the B-2, F-22, and V-22. Two 747s meant to be a flying command center for the president is much less objectionable to a stealth bomber that might be outdated against modern russian missiles, an air superiority fighter with nobody to fight against, and a tilt rotor that tends to crash a lot
[QUOTE=Chonch;51488545][URL="http://www.npr.org/2016/12/06/504554532/air-force-none-trump-threatens-to-cancel-new-presidential-plane-over-cost"]NPR attests Boeing's contract is only for $170 million.[/URL] I'm honestly not sure where the $4 billion figure came from.[/QUOTE]
[Quote]So far, Boeing is only contracted for $170 million to determine the capabilities of the new planes.[/Quote]
$170 million is merely for preliminary work and most likely will be counted towards the eventual $4 billion of total project costs. $170 million does not buy even a bare bones 747-8 as it is.
[QUOTE=Chonch;51488592]It does raise questions about where government contract funds go to, especially after that damning Pentagon report earlier today.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Boilrig;51488600]Yeah, saw that article. It really does make you think.[/QUOTE]
They go into questionably useful proprietary cutting edge tech R&D and execution in large scale. Is it too hard to believe without starting to sound conspirational?
[QUOTE=OvB;51486101]I have a feeling that the two Air Force One jets have a crap load of top secret shit on them that we don't know about that inflates the price. I wouldn't be surprised if those things were armed with offensive and defensive weapons, plus full hospital, escape pods, survival gear, etc, etc.[/QUOTE]
I think the problem is that Air Force estimated the cost at 1.6 billion which was considered acceptable, but turns out it costs over two times that, leading to a change of heart.
this guy is an idiot.
-snip-
[QUOTE=bunguer;51491823]You guys really can't agree with anything he does or say, if the 1.6B is true there's absolutely no reason to accept this, even less so if it costs 4B.
This is an absurd amount of money and what is there to gain? Is that extra military hardware really needed? Where do you draw the line? What if it costed 10B? These are the questions you should be asking.
Many of you are acting as if private companies don't tend to overestimate costs when doing contract work with public entities.[/QUOTE]
Yes it's absurdly priced, but it is a fairly important thing for the president to have, regardless of who it is.
There's nothing we can do about companies overcharging when it comes to government contracts, just like there's nothing you can do about companies overcharging the second they hear the word "wedding"
[QUOTE=OvB;51486101]I have a feeling that the two Air Force One jets have a crap load of top secret shit on them that we don't know about that inflates the price. I wouldn't be surprised if those things were armed with offensive and defensive weapons, plus full hospital, escape pods, survival gear, etc, etc.[/QUOTE]
A lot like the presidential limousine, most details surrounding its capabilities, materials, and flight specifications are highly classified information. $900 million sounds about right when you're talking about outfitting a regular plane with all of the technology and protection required to meet the spec of AF1.
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