Scarlett Johansson set to star as Motoko Kusanagi in Ghost in the Shell live-action movie
173 replies, posted
Hollywood has never cared about making deep movies. That happens, if it does, because the creative people are able to find a way to deliver the art while also putting people in the audience. The creative people aren't Hollywood, they [i]work[/i] for Hollywood. Epic movies still get made. But you'll notice something like Exodus stars white lead actors, even though the characters aren't white.
Pretend you're the money guy. I'm the creative guy and I come to you and say I want to make Ghost in the Shell as a live action movie. I have to pitch to you why this movie will make you money. If I say "I plan for Rinko Kikuchi to star in this" does that mean anything to you? You'd ask "Who is she, what's she been in, and how much did it make?". If I say "I have ScarJo starring in this, she just starred in Lucy which made 400 million dollars worldwide off a 40 million dollar budget" do you think that might perk your interest?
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;46869483]I would argue that GitS is incredibly eastern. Almost all of Mamoru Oshii's movies are. Just because it doesn't have schoolgirls or dragon ball z beam battles doesn't mean it's western.[/QUOTE]
i didn't pass any comment on GiTS itself i just said that if you can't enjoy content that isn't from the west then you're a bit strange
[QUOTE=cecilbdemodded;46870742]Hollywood has never cared about making deep movies. That happens, if it does, because the creative people are able to find a way to deliver the art while also putting people in the audience. The creative people aren't Hollywood, they [i]work[/i] for Hollywood. Epic movies still get made. But you'll notice something like Exodus stars white lead actors, even though the characters aren't white.
Pretend you're the money guy. I'm the creative guy and I come to you and say I want to make Ghost in the Shell as a live action movie. I have to pitch to you why this movie will make you money. If I say "I plan for Rinko Kikuchi to star in this" does that mean anything to you? You'd ask "Who is she, what's she been in, and how much did it make?". If I say "I have ScarJo starring in this, she just starred in Lucy which made 400 million dollars worldwide off a 40 million dollar budget" do you think that might perk your interest?[/QUOTE]
that is so, but when i see movies from say the 60's,70's even 80's they tend to have this longer more epic feel to them. The whole story actually feels like it's being told from beginning to end without all these sudden transitions and plot holes.
And hell, GitS is eastern as fuck, specifically japanese as fuck, almost the entire is deeply rooted in how japanese politics works, hell, section 9 might as well be a modern shinsengumi.
[QUOTE=andy85258;46871035]that is so, but when i see movies from say the 60's,70's even 80's they tend to have this longer more epic feel to them. The whole story actually feels like it's being told from beginning to end without all these sudden transitions and plot holes.[/QUOTE]
The old Hollywood studio system broke apart in the mid to late 60s. This is why filmmakers like Scorsese/Coppola/Lucas were able to start cranking out their kind movies. So yeah, it was a sort of renaissance time for movies. It was not representative of how Hollywood normally did business.
This is proven by the fact that once that transition was over, Spielberg and Lucas had created the summer blockbuster Hollywood era. This is what we've been in since. This is also why those kinds of gritty movies aren't made anymore outside indie films. Hollywood is playing it safe like before.
The only difference is now most of the money movies make comes from outside the US. The only billion dollar movie last year was the Transformers movie, with most of the earnings in foreign markets. This is why ScarJo gets the role, she draws audiences around the world, even if US moviegoers don't see anything special about her. You're not going to make hundreds of millions of dollars in box office off anime fans, no matter how authentic and true to the source the movie is. Marvel's movies make money because first and foremost movie fans like those movies, no one cares what the comic book fans think about the movies.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;46866942]Just going to say, if you haven't watched the original and you consider yourself a fan of cyberpunk/scifi stuff, you're missing out.
[/QUOTE]
Considering the colour scheme - isn't this from the remaster which wasn't nearly as good?
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;46869483]I would argue that GitS is incredibly eastern. Almost all of Mamoru Oshii's movies are. Just because it doesn't have schoolgirls or dragon ball z beam battles doesn't mean it's western.[/QUOTE]
To be honest, I find the setting to be one, with which it is very easy emphatise. It's certainly not an american mindset, but I wouldn't call it an eastern one either. A post communist Europe fits the bill in the way people react very well though.
[QUOTE=.Lain;46869438]if your bar for enjoying something is how western it is then i am worried[/QUOTE]
No, but there's a certain mindset for both the world and characters on both sides of the world. This isn't even about how it looks, but how it feels. I find it very hard to emphatise with those that draw far too heavily from the eastern side. It's often hard to understand why the world seems to work as it does, or why do some characters fall apart from certain things but remain stoic to others.
japan isn't the only country that isn't in the west. i think by 'western' you mean american
'eastern' and 'western' when used in terms to describe media is incredibly vague
[QUOTE=wraithcat;46871385]Considering the colour scheme - isn't this from the remaster which wasn't nearly as good?
To be honest, I find the setting to be one, with which it is very easy emphatise. It's certainly not an american mindset, but I wouldn't call it an eastern one either. A post communist Europe fits the bill in the way people react very well though.[/QUOTE]
It's hard to find the right clips on youtube. But yes, you're absolutely right. Though I don't think any amount of fuckery can make that scene not amazing.
There are just certain things that wouldn't translate, I don't think. When people get uncomfortable because of the Major's design, for instance, they're kind of missing the cultural context that justifies it.
She has purple hair, and she wears a leotard, and she gets naked. But that's the point. Her body is based on the most common mass produced cyborg. She represents a physical ideal which has become as common and trivial as a kitchen appliance. She represents a future in which sexuality and beauty are meaningless.
If you aren't approaching it from the perspective of a culture in which sexuality, beauty, and companionship are already heavily commoditized, it doesn't mean as much. And that's just one example, there are plenty of other elements of GitS that have to do with politics, gender, and ideology which rely on Japanese culture and common understanding.
Of course it still [I]could[/I] be adapted well. It would just take a writer who's as knowledgeable about the subject matter and their own culture as Mamoru Oshii is.
[editline]7th January 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=wraithcat;46871385]No, but there's a certain mindset for both the world and characters on both sides of the world. This isn't even about how it looks, but how it feels. I find it very hard to emphatise with those that draw far too heavily from the eastern side. It's often hard to understand why the world seems to work as it does, or why do some characters fall apart from certain things but remain stoic to others.[/QUOTE]
The best part of foreign media is that it shows you what concepts and attitudes are arbitrary. Once you get past the cultural fluff, you realize that most people are the same.
Kurosawa's [I]Ran[/I] is a good example. It's an adaptation of King Lear, only with samurai instead of noblemen. And despite how alien people perceive Japanese culture to be, the story plays out just as well and just as believably. Because pride, fear, loyalty, and treachery are universal.
I prefer the novel over the manga adaptation. it's translated so well.
[QUOTE=PelPix123;46872821]This isn't actually true. Anime characters, by and large, ARE drawn white. White people are somewhat fetishized and held as a beauty standard in Japan, to the extent that many people in Japan get plastic surgery to make their eyes look less Asian.
A lot of people say as a joke "Why do all anime characters look white" but the truth is that the Japanese are very self-racist, but at the same time xenophobic. It's a very complex dynamic with a very complex history that would take forever for me to explain.
[editline]6th January 2015[/editline]
If it was just to be expressive, then that doesn't explain why a lot of anime draws Chinese people and other types of Asians as more Asian than Japanese people in the same anime. The reason it does is that Japan is judgmental of these cultures and believes they don't deserve to be portrayed as "attractively" (whitely) as their culture does
[editline]6th January 2015[/editline]
It's all really weird.[/QUOTE]
anime eyes are the way they are because they're descended from Disney eyes
plenty of artists who go for a more realistic style draw their characters with asian facial features
maybe the reason anime characters don't look specifically japanese is because cartoon faces are designed to be as generalized and simple as possible
Do you have a source for any of this? Because I have no goddamn clue where you're getting this from.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;46866942]Just going to say, if you haven't watched the original and you consider yourself a fan of cyberpunk/scifi stuff, you're missing out.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBqGC9sVBXY[/media][/QUOTE]
The remake pales in comparison to the original opening.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsiepGvjjTM[/media]
This is where the green text in the Matrix originated from. Hell, you can even see tons and tons of Japanese/Chinese characters flash around in the Matrix text. This movie and AKIRA thanklessly changed the action genre in America forever.
[QUOTE=PelPix123;46872821]This isn't actually true. Anime characters, by and large, ARE drawn white. White people are somewhat fetishized and held as a beauty standard in Japan, to the extent that many people in Japan get plastic surgery to make their eyes look less Asian.
A lot of people say as a joke "Why do all anime characters look white" but the truth is that the Japanese are very self-racist, but at the same time xenophobic. It's a very complex dynamic with a very complex history that would take forever for me to explain.
[editline]6th January 2015[/editline]
If it was just to be expressive, then that doesn't explain why a lot of anime draws Chinese people and other types of Asians as more Asian than Japanese people in the same anime. The reason it does is that Japan is judgmental of these cultures and believes they don't deserve to be portrayed as "attractively" (whitely) as their culture does
[editline]6th January 2015[/editline]
It's all really weird.[/QUOTE]
Nearly everything you just said is absolutely false and pretty offensive to Japanese people IMO.
This movie won't be very good and it will only get GITS in name and not in spirit. the movie will not have a complex plot and will most likely take place in the USA ( which would be okay if the theme was still there ) and will be a pointless Sc-fi shooter movie in order to make a quick buck.
[QUOTE=Jund;46864121]Like what? Dragonball? Oldboy? Akira? Fuckin Speed Racer??
The only time characters are drawn to look like white people in anime is, surprise, when they're white
[editline]5th January 2015[/editline]
[thumb]http://puu.sh/e7JqR/759b2e3464.png[/thumb]
[thumb]http://puu.sh/e7Jv5/4d17376084.jpg[/thumb]
[thumb]http://puu.sh/e7Jw3/7ff7a72786.jpg[/thumb]
... *shrugs* looks white to me lol[/QUOTE]
They look white because you're likely white, or you live in a society dominated by white people.
[editline]7th January 2015[/editline]
I guarantee you the respective creators see their characters as japanese.
Why even make a live action GiTS?
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46874226]They look white because you're likely white, or you live in a society dominated by white people.
[editline]7th January 2015[/editline]
I guarantee you the respective creators see their characters as japanese.[/QUOTE]
It's a joke
I'm Chinese
[editline]7th January 2015[/editline]
I mean, seriously?
[QUOTE=Srillo;46863034]She's a bad choice and it will be a shit movie. Don't even kid yourselves into thinking it will be anything more than GitS in name only.[/QUOTE]
I think she's a fine choice, but this movie is going to suck really bad regardless
[QUOTE=PelPix123;46872821]This isn't actually true. Anime characters, by and large, ARE drawn white. White people are somewhat fetishized and held as a beauty standard in Japan, to the extent that many people in Japan get plastic surgery to make their eyes look less Asian.
A lot of people say as a joke "Why do all anime characters look white" but the truth is that the Japanese are very self-racist, but at the same time xenophobic. It's a very complex dynamic with a very complex history that would take forever for me to explain.
[editline]6th January 2015[/editline]
If it was just to be expressive, then that doesn't explain why a lot of anime draws Chinese people and other types of Asians as more Asian than Japanese people in the same anime. The reason it does is that Japan is judgmental of these cultures and believes they don't deserve to be portrayed as "attractively" (whitely) as their culture does
[editline]6th January 2015[/editline]
It's all really weird.[/QUOTE]
How do so many people still believe this? A Japanese dude even made a video about it.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn_wuOur-EQ[/media]
[QUOTE=PelPix123;46872821]This isn't actually true. Anime characters, by and large, ARE drawn white. White people are somewhat fetishized and held as a beauty standard in Japan, to the extent that many people in Japan get plastic surgery to make their eyes look less Asian.
A lot of people say as a joke "Why do all anime characters look white" but the truth is that the Japanese are very self-racist, but at the same time xenophobic. It's a very complex dynamic with a very complex history that would take forever for me to explain.
[editline]6th January 2015[/editline]
If it was just to be expressive, then that doesn't explain why a lot of anime draws Chinese people and other types of Asians as more Asian than Japanese people in the same anime. The reason it does is that Japan is judgmental of these cultures and believes they don't deserve to be portrayed as "attractively" (whitely) as their culture does
[editline]6th January 2015[/editline]
It's all really weird.[/QUOTE]
Anime characters do not look white unless they are white, the reason that CHINESE characters in anime are drawn with more stereotyped features is because due to the simple style of animation, they only way to tell them apart is to use exaggerated stereotypes, and of course because 99% of anime characters are JAPANESE, they don't have to use exaggerated stereotypes to show they're Japanese, because everybody fucking knows they're Japanese by DEFAULT.
In fact, many characters in anime who ARE white are drawn exactly like the Japanese characters, does this mean the Japanese characters are drawn white? NO. It means the white characters are drawn Japanese to appeal to JAPANESE BEAUTY SENSIBILITIES, does that mean there aren't people in Japan who like European facial features more then Asian? fucking no, that exists in every culture.
Like the video Taggart posted says, anime characters disregarding the eyes which I've already established are for expressiveness and as others said based off Disney eyes in the first place, anime characters have facial features of the average Japanese person, rounder faces instead of American/European sharp faces.
And please cite your sources on the "japan hates itself" bit, that's just ridiculous.
cant wait for that over the top CG and safe ass acting from SJ which will make this into an uninspired mess JUST LIKE "LUCY"
[QUOTE=Lambeth;46874226]They look white because you're likely white, or you live in a society dominated by white people.
[editline]7th January 2015[/editline]
I guarantee you the respective creators see their characters as japanese.[/QUOTE]
I don't know, man, those bottom two characters look Japanese as fuck, and I'm so white I shit craft cheese.
That's one thing I liked about Akira and Oldboy, the characters actually looked like they're from that general area.
[QUOTE=PelPix123;46877768]So, in essence, I'm saying the opposite of what you assumed I'm saying: My claim is that the anime art style [I]that was created to look cute and increase the readability of facial expressions[/I] contributed to the creation of a cultural norm of Western supremacy in Japan as just one small part of the massive influx of international trade from the West, not the other way around.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=PelPix123;46872821]This isn't actually true. Anime characters, by and large, ARE drawn white. White people are somewhat fetishized and held as a beauty standard in Japan, to the extent that many people in Japan get plastic surgery to make their eyes look less Asian.
A lot of people say as a joke "Why do all anime characters look white" but the truth is that the Japanese are very self-racist, but at the same time xenophobic. It's a very complex dynamic with a very complex history that would take forever for me to explain..[/QUOTE]
Well shit, which one is it
I'm going to proceed with extremely careful optimism.
[QUOTE=Jund;46864121]... *shrugs* looks white to me lol[/QUOTE]
The fact that people actually think they look white or that they think [I]I[/I] actually think they look white is very worrying
I thought it was because Caucasian facial features are easier to draw than asian ones.
[QUOTE=Jackald;46878042]To be fair, there's quite a lot of evidence to support the statement that anime characters have caucasian features. Besides, it depends on the artist and stuff. Not sure why it matters, tbh.[/QUOTE]
That's absurd. Try a comparison that uses a a generalized montage of racial facial characteristics, and not just one guy labeled "asian" and another labeled "white".
[thumb]http://www.sycra.net/averageface_male.jpg[/thumb]
[thumb]http://www.sycra.net/averageface_female.jpg[/thumb]
some people act like asians are all racist 40's caricatures. It's fucking ridiculous.
[QUOTE=Jackald;46878042]To be fair, there's quite a lot of evidence to support the statement that anime characters have caucasian features. Besides, it depends on the artist and stuff. Not sure why it matters, tbh.[/QUOTE]
yeah dude, i also have naturally purple hair and yellow eyes too
those images are so cherry picked it's almost hilarious
homer simpson is yellow and has beady black eyes, i guess he's asian lol
sorry people, saying that anime characters are drawn to be white does not in fact make you more anime
[editline]7th January 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=PelPix123;46878132]Both...ish. The original style when it was brought over contributed to a culture of Western supremacy and then that culture of Western supremacy further Westernized the style. It's got sort of a feedback loop thing going on.
It's interesting to be called racist against Japanese people, because normally it's white people that I'm accused of being racist against, since I'm not a huge fan of Western culture. That's why I'm arguing this, in fact. It's my personal opinion that the notion of Western supremacy I've described is harmful to Japanese culture, and that's the inherent bias in my argument.[/QUOTE]
idk why you're so bent on defending super honorable traditional japanese culture from the greedy imperialist western devil culture when japanese animators don't really give a shit
do you think a bunch of middle aged japanese businessmen sit around a table with a picture of an anime schoolgirl and go "no.... she needs to be MORE WHITE"
i mean yeah it sucks for your friend but that's the consequence of globalization and modern fashion and that has nothing to do with anime
people will always be interested in foreign culture or culture they believe to be superior (look at how bushido culture spread)
if everyone was so obsessed with retaining their culture and tradition i'd be feeding cows and shitting in a hole
My nose is more like the Asian guy in Jackald's second dumb cherrypicked image, does that make me Japanese? spoiler alert I'm super white.
[QUOTE=PelPix123;46877768]I'm not saying that anime style originated from white people. It's much more complicated than that. It did happen more as you described, but AFTERWARDS, people started to equate that already pre-existing notion of big-eyed cuteness with white people because of their rounder eyes. Japanese media corporations picked up on that and saw a way to capitalize on it, and they altered the social landscape to change the standards of beauty to be more Caucasian-inspired, which rippled through Japanese society and changed everything, casting previously normal Asian features, fashion, and even food in a negative light in favor of more "exciting", "modern" Western varieties of these things.
This isn't happening by choice--Western beauty, food, fashion, and even ethical and religious standards are being forced upon the Japanese population by the media.[/QUOTE]
Citation needed. Last I checked, the standards of beauty in Japan remain pretty specifically Japanese. Like, very specifically Japanese.
[QUOTE]None of this happened in so many words. It's a slow process with implications mostly subconscious, but the results are crazy. People in Japan (And Korea, which has it even worse than Japan does on this front) even feel pressured get their eyelids "fixed" to become more white-looking for things as simple as improve their chances at getting a job. Anyone who wants to work in media is required to look "fresh" and "exotic" and can't look "plain," so they have to get eyelid surgery. Traditional Japanese clothing, hairstyles, and fashion in general are considered "plain" (This is a word that's used a LOT in Japan about people's appearances and from what I've seen, it mostly describes people not looking white enough.). If you're "plain," you tend to get made fun of until you cave and start complying to "modern" Western fashion trends, which will cost you a lot of money, and that's the media's endgame in all of this.[/QUOTE]
Hahaha what. Calling someone "plain" isn't saying they aren't white enough, what the fuck. Western fashion is hip among younger Japanese sure, but that's not because of some media conspiracy turning the Japanese into white lovers.
[QUOTE]What's even worse is that in general, this only happens to women. Men are relatively unaffected, and are allowed to look and be and dress as traditionally Japanese as they want. Western beauty standards are forced primarily upon women.[/QUOTE]
No they aren't? No-one is forced to adhere to "western beauty standards" (which by the way is an extremely stupid notation: the west comprises so many different cultures that attempting to normalize a simple beauty standard for all of it is dumb, as is claiming a specific country's as the entire west's view), and if anything, young men and women are equally partaking in dressing more western than they used to because they want to, not because the Japanese media is enforcing some "western culture takeover". Like, what.
[QUOTE]So, in essence, I'm saying the opposite of what you assumed I'm saying: My claim is that the anime art style [I]that was created to look cute and increase the readability of facial expressions[/I] contributed to the creation of a cultural norm of Western supremacy in Japan as just one small part of the massive influx of international trade from the West, not the other way around.[/QUOTE]
....What. I'm still trying to wrap my head around what this actually means. Are you suggesting that some marketing exec sat down one day, played an episode of, say, [I]Elfen Lied[/I], and then got together a board meeting and said "hey these characters have big eyes, they might look vaguely western - let's introduce and enforce western culture and make big bucks!"? What the hell lmao. I can't even properly respond to this.
[QUOTE=PelPix123;46878132]Both...ish. The original style when it was brought over contributed to a culture of Western supremacy and then that culture of Western supremacy further Westernized the style. It's got sort of a feedback loop thing going on.
It's interesting to be called racist against Japanese people, because normally it's white people that I'm accused of being racist against, since I'm not a huge fan of Western culture. That's why I'm arguing this, in fact. It's my personal opinion that the notion of Western supremacy I've described is harmful to Japanese culture, and that's the inherent bias in my argument.[/QUOTE]
yo hold on what the hell am I reading
So what you're saying is that you seem to think that anime has somehow become westernized (which is a laughable concept in and of itself), and it's all because of western supremacy? What.
Like I don't know what you've been smoking but that is literally not what's happening at all. I dunno what's given you this massive hateboner for "western culture" (nor am I sure why you seem to think that the Japanese are destroying their own culture with it), but it seems to be making you see things that just straight are not happening at all.
[QUOTE=Jackald;46878355]Cmon now, I don't think anyone's arguing that, you don't need to strawman the whole thing. He's just saying there's a general trend to the overall popularity of certain art styles in anime.
You could argue a similar sort of thing for western cartoons; over the years, traditional animation and realistic proportions have become less popular, and very simple flash-animated smooth animation has become more popular, which is due to a lot of different reasons.
It's a slow gradual year-on-year thing where tastes change over the years and animators adapt to try to appeal to those tastes, or their own tastes change. And then it keeps happening until steadily the accepted "popular" or "good-looking" art style changes.
And that's just how tastes change in general. There's a reason why pop music isn't the same now as it was 30 years ago, and it's due to a shitton of factors.
So stop trying to belittle the opposing argument with retarded logical fallacies.[/QUOTE]
[quote]This isn't actually true. Anime characters, by and large, ARE drawn white. White people are somewhat fetishized and held as a beauty standard in Japan, to the extent that many people in Japan get plastic surgery to make their eyes look less Asian.
A lot of people say as a joke "Why do all anime characters look white" but the truth is that the Japanese are very self-racist, but at the same time xenophobic. It's a very complex dynamic with a very complex history that would take forever for me to explain.[/quote]
what am i strawmanning he literally said anime characters are drawn white because western culture is corrupting japanese culture
i understand how trends work, that has nothing to do with the argument that anime characters are drawn white
[editline]7th January 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Rahkshi lord;46878361]My nose is more like the Asian guy in Jackald's second dumb cherrypicked image, does that make me Japanese? spoiler alert I'm super white.[/QUOTE]
wtf you have a nose ala? that's impossible are you sure you aren't asian
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