• Researchers unravel mechanism that plays key role in sexual differentiation of brain
    100 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Mingebox;47449739]If it's really as simple as just flipping a switch in the brain, then it seems much as easier and effective than expensive, invasive surgery that really can only do so much[/QUOTE] I understand it's not as simple, but a matter of what's being changed: what you want, or what you look like.
[QUOTE=Deng;47449113]I'm still not convinced. It just sounds like hypocrisy to me.[/QUOTE] How can you argue that human rights violations are not worth defending? I didn't say that we [I]should[/I] invade other countries all things considered, but that a country agreeing to invade would not be wrong to do so morally. [editline]3rd April 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=bitches;47443951]"i don't know what human rights are"[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=bitches;47450830]How can you argue that human rights violations are not worth defending? I didn't say that we [I]should[/I] invade other countries all things considered, but that a country agreeing to invade would not be wrong to do so morally.[/QUOTE] Would it be morally just to invade Iran, throw out their government, abolish the repressive laws on LGBT people, and then kill anybody who tried to reverse this state of affairs?
You're the one who brought up killing. Anyone trying to hold back the rights of others [I]deserves[/I] to be stopped by some means. Practicality makes intervention a bad idea with strong consequences.
[QUOTE=bitches;47450934]You're the one who brought up killing. Anyone trying to hold back the rights of others [I]deserves[/I] to be stopped by some means. Practicality makes intervention a bad idea with strong consequences.[/QUOTE] Military invasion usually implies killing people. Also in terms of international diplomacy and politics, it's perhaps not the best idea to go around forcing other countries to adopt unpopular social reforms. I wouldn't want to be in a position where the countries supporting LGBT rights are weak and the anti-LGBT countries are strong either, because if we can justify invading them for being anti-LGBT, then they won't think twice about doing the same to us.
While it is dark to think of it as a way to force people to be a certain way, I still think it's personally a great discovery, and could serve as an alternative to those who are transgender or straight/bi/gay. Of course, such a thing should be something one really thinks about and has a choice in doing rather than having it forced upon them. As much as there are people who would do this to essentially live a new life without complications, others would see it as losing ones identity. I have to wonder if this whole thing applies to fetishes though. Like someone essentially removing a fetish that others deem undesirable, or "programming" their brain to have a fetish that their partner has in order to be more sexually compatible.
[QUOTE=PelPix123;47446344]Nobody is saying trans people shouldn't be allowed to pick this if they want to, just that it opens the door to being forced into it unless legislation or court case happens specifically banning third parties from deciding for the patient. As the law is right now, if this were a viable procedure today, in the US, a parent would be legally allowed to make their 16 year old gay son/trans daughter to go through this involuntarily. It wouldn't become illegal until a case brought against the parents by the child reached the supreme court. That's how American law works.[/QUOTE] Except this isn't completely true. We went through long court battles to ensure that the state can intervene on the patients behalf if it feels the parents are not making medical decisions that ultimately benefit the patient. This isn't a federal thing, but rather a state thing, and almost all states in the US have these laws.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;47444323]Would this hypothetical cure be such a bad thing, assuming it were only administered by request? While there's nothing morally wrong with gender identity disorders, they have been known cause a lot of anguish, confusion, and self loathing for the people who have them. The suicide rate is shocking. While the best approach is to embrace yourself for who you are and live your life in the way that makes you most comfortable, that is easier said than done. Feeling like a stranger in your own body, and seeing that false representation of how you feel in the mirror every day, has to be very difficult, especially if faced with ridicule and ostracization for it. I imagine that many transgender people would celebrate the idea of a treatment that could alter their chemistry in such a way that they no longer felt conflicted without otherwise having negative emotional impacts. While it would be horrifying to force that treatment on people, as you suggest, having the treatment available seems like it would be a massive boon and major breakthrough.[/QUOTE] I think the primary problem here is that this as a treatment delineates transsexuality as a disease to be cured; while I absolutely understand that this has extremely positive medicinal uses for people with overcrushing anxiety, there is also a serious potential for a blowback in that regard. we can't really predict how it would occur, but there is a real and genuine chance that if this procedure became commonplace, it would [B]facilitate[/B], not eliminate persecution and oppression. those who choose not to undergo this treatment would suddenly be associated with the religious right who choose not to medicate their cancer patient children, when in reality it's quite a different scenario. sexuality and sexual identity are two components of human nature that should have a celebrated diversity, not crushed into a mold. sexual and racial politics have been tightly wound together in the modern era, and a blow to one tends to be a blow to the other. by medicalizing diversity there's potential dangers that can reach outwards into other components of social liberalism. i'm not making a judgment call right now as to whether or not this will be a blow to the LGBT community, however to ignore the risk is foolish. There is obvious significant risk involved. [QUOTE=Deng;47446437]How come we haven't invaded the African countries (like Uganda) which oppress LGBT people then? Homosexuality in Iran and Saudi Arabia both carry the death penalty.[/QUOTE] sexuality isn't protected under any widespread international treaty or considered a component of genocide, and the death penalty is also considered legal under international law (ICCPR article 6). that's why. [editline]6th April 2015[/editline] also customary laws as they relate to principles of national sovereignty
[QUOTE=BrickInHead;47468451]sexuality isn't protected under any widespread international treaty or considered a component of genocide, and the death penalty is also considered legal under international law (ICCPR article 6). that's why. [editline]6th April 2015[/editline] also customary laws as they relate to principles of national sovereignty[/QUOTE] Well, that's going to be interesting once some nations start introducing these policies on a wide scale upon the LGBT community.
Here's my predictions, and feel free to correct any inaccuracies. One of the largest killers of transsexuals is due to suicide due to, at it's core, gender dysphoria. This is a recognized medical disorder. With that being said, the only cure, at the moment, is HRT and surgery. If a medicine can cure gender dysphoria, without the added risks that all surgeries carry, then doctors will first try this new medicine to cure the dysphoria BEFORE subjecting the person to HRT and surgery. It's the same reason that if you can successfully be cured of a disease through medicine, they won't take the risk of surgery. I think it's something worth thinking about.
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;47471149]Here's my predictions, and feel free to correct any inaccuracies. One of the largest killers of transsexuals is due to suicide due to, at it's core, gender dysphoria. This is a recognized medical disorder. With that being said, the only cure, at the moment, is HRT and surgery. If a medicine can cure gender dysphoria, without the added risks that all surgeries carry, then doctors will first try this new medicine to cure the dysphoria BEFORE subjecting the person to HRT and surgery. It's the same reason that if you can successfully be cured of a disease through medicine, they won't take the risk of surgery. I think it's something worth thinking about.[/QUOTE] If this could be developed into a treatment, I wouldn't want to force it on anyone but I'd be totally ok with offering it as an option. Definitely forsee some problems though, namely things like bible thumpers doing the necessary mental gymnastics required to say that because the treatment exists, being trans is a choice.
[QUOTE=FlakAttack;47472931]If this could be developed into a treatment, I wouldn't want to force it on anyone but I'd be totally ok with offering it as an option. Definitely forsee some problems though, namely things like bible thumpers doing the necessary mental gymnastics required to say that because the treatment exists, being trans is a choice.[/QUOTE] What I'm saying is it most likely would not be a choice when it comes to people suffering from gender dysphoria. Doctors don't like sending people under the knife unless there are no other options because of the risks involved with surgery. They don't like taking the risk that you have a reaction to anesthesia, or developing an infection and dieing.
[QUOTE=FlakAttack;47472931] Definitely forsee some problems though, namely things like bible thumpers doing the necessary mental gymnastics required to say that because the treatment exists, being trans is a choice.[/QUOTE] Would that be wrong though? If there is a readily available fix but you refuse to take it, are you not who you are by choice then? Maybe being isn't, but in that context staying most definitely is a choice.
I might be a bit of a dream crusher here, but the mice where treated when they we're one week old. While our brains don't stop developing until they're 25, the amount of neuro-development is extremely heavy, and it gradually tapers off. By the time you're 15, most of your higher cognitive development is done. Neuroplasticity drops severely from the first few months of life, which is why brain injuries to adults are so fucking difficult to deal with and young kids can generally adapt or recover to normalcy much, much better. Anyway, by this age a person may just be beginning to realise they are gender dysphoric. It's generally too late. Those with male primary sex characteristics will find it easier to convert their brain over, and those with female primary sexual characteristics will find it more difficult too. I'm basing my reasoning off the way females are the "default" human option (look up complete androgen insensitivity syndrome, they have XY (male) chromosomes but are phenotypically female, quite interesting and relevant to my point), and the way the males are sexually differentiated. Using the example in the brackets, how the women affected by CAIS still develop normal female body shape. Although that assumes a mutation in the SRY gene or in the androgen receptors in the brain which may cause it to differentiate that way. Honestly i don't actually know what causes gender dysphoria so i'mma go look it up and change this if i'm wrong. That's just my two cents though. [editline]7th April 2015[/editline] So i just had a looksie on old wikipedia. The causes aren't really know but some of the theories back up my own. Mostly in regards to some really interesting shit. So on the topic of Androgen insensitivity like i suggested above, from what seems to be a study has found a link between MtF transexuals and specific gene repetitions that affected the sensitivity to Testosterone and Dihydrotestosterone. Even more interestingly, those who are FtM transgender have a completely different gene linked to FtM transexualism. Although i dunno if it's the sole cause or even a solid biological marker of the condition. Although if biological markers for these conditions were found, it could be screened for and cured shortly after birth.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;47445738]The current cure for dysmorphia is not a suggestion that someone's sense of self is wrong, it's a suggestion that their physical body is wrong. It's not the same. The effectiveness of current treatments (mental vs physical) for dysmorphia clearly show which one of those two things we hold more closely. It's also really asinine that you jump straight to the "dumb lefty leftists" bullshit. This isn't some sort of left-wing conspiracy to suppress people, it's an acknowledgement that maybe we should change the bigots before we start trying to change their victims to suit the bigots' whims.[/QUOTE] This is just because our current technology is not advanced enough to alter the brain in the same way that we can alter other body parts. There is no actual distinction between the "physical" and "mental" like you're suggesting. The brain is just another body part. Do you think people are wrong to use prosthetic limbs because we should instead be supporting people who live as complete amputees? The deaf community commonly makes this same argument, demonizing people who use various cures to restore their hearing.
[QUOTE=Explosions;47474235]This is just because our current technology is not advanced enough to alter the brain in the same way that we can alter other body parts. There is no actual distinction between the "physical" and "mental" like you're suggesting. The brain is just another body part. Do you think people are wrong to use prosthetic limbs because we should instead be supporting people who live as complete amputees? The deaf community commonly makes this same argument, demonizing people who use various cures to restore their hearing.[/QUOTE] if someone were to get an arm transplant we wouldn't consider them a different person, but what if two people were to switch brains? It's just a body part, so we should act as if nothing changed right?
[QUOTE=1STrandomman;47476079]if someone were to get an arm transplant we wouldn't consider them a different person, but what if two people were to switch brains? It's just a body part, so we should act as if nothing changed right?[/QUOTE] They might be considered a different person. Imagine a person with no arms getting a pair of new robo arms. That could be a huge change in someone's life. They might say "I feel like a new person with these arms!" This happens all the time. Someone who gets a bypass surgery and loses 300 pounds might be considered a different person as well.
[QUOTE=1STrandomman;47476079]if someone were to get an arm transplant we wouldn't consider them a different person, but what if two people were to switch brains? It's just a body part, so we should act as if nothing changed right?[/QUOTE] People are typically assumed to be the same after surgery on the brain as before. Partial brain transplants have been done already I think, and we assume the person to be the same.
[QUOTE=Explosions;47476367]They might be considered a different person. Imagine a person with no arms getting a pair of new robo arms. That could be a huge change in someone's life. They might say "I feel like a new person with these arms!" This happens all the time. Someone who gets a bypass surgery and loses 300 pounds might be considered a different person as well.[/QUOTE] That's just a saying though, they don't literally consider themselves an entirely new person. There's a difference between a change in someone's life and a wholesale change of identity. [QUOTE=Deng;47476376]People are typically assumed to be the same after surgery on the brain as before. Partial brain transplants have been done already I think, and we assume the person to be the same.[/QUOTE] A quick google search tells me that the partial transplants you're talking about generally consist of a few cells; obviously that small of a change isn't going to affect a person's sense of identity. Even if we were talking about a surgery that had broader implications for the way that person thinks or their personality (like in the op), I personally think that if it was their decision to make the change, then it's still as much a result of their agency as a person as any other change a person could make. The idea that someone could force you to change something as fundamental as your sexuality or gender identity against your will fills me with existential dread.
[QUOTE=1STrandomman;47478112]That's just a saying though, they don't literally consider themselves an entirely new person. There's a difference between a change in someone's life and a wholesale change of identity.[/QUOTE] I never said anything about "entirely new," but they certainly might be different than they were before. Why would a change in sexual orientation or sexual identity mean that a person is completely different than they were before? Sometimes people's entire personalities change over a period of time. A person can have an experience that changes them from a funny, open, jovial person into a jaded and quiet asshole. It happens all the time but we don't think that they're inherently different or something.
[QUOTE=Explosions;47478592]I never said anything about "entirely new," but they certainly might be different than they were before.[/quote] Isn't that kind of implied when you say they might be considered a different person? In the context of my original post I'm not sure how else to interpret your response. [quote]Why would a change in sexual orientation or sexual identity mean that a person is completely different than they were before? Sometimes people's entire personalities change over a period of time. A person can have an experience that changes them from a funny, open, jovial person into a jaded and quiet asshole. It happens all the time but we don't think that they're inherently different or something.[/QUOTE] In those cases the person is responding to their experience, which to me means that the change is still their choice. The difference between that and surgically forcing the change on someone is agency.
[QUOTE=sltungle;47443202]This is going to sound really shitty, but is that necessarily a terrible thing? A lot of the emotional and mental problems that people in the LGBT face are a result of not feeling like they fit in, being treated differently (terribly, even), etc, etc. If you could make sure that children grew up to have the corresponding mental traits for their physical characteristics so that those specific worries no longer existed you could probably remove a large portion of the depression from the population. It's basically another version of the whole, "if you could be dumb and always happy, would you be?" question; if you could retrospectively pick a way of existence that would ensure your happiness and you'd never know the difference, would you do so? No matter how 'good' we become as people, no matter how much better society becomes, there'll always be cunts around that perpetuate those negative feelings in people who they perceive as different from themselves.[/QUOTE] I suppose it wouldn't be a problem as an option, but most gay people I know, myself included, probably would never consider something like this. I don't think I've ever once wished I were straight. Being gay is just part of who I am. I wouldn't want to change that.
[QUOTE=1STrandomman;47478716]Isn't that kind of implied when you say they might be considered a different person? In the context of my original post I'm not sure how else to interpret your response.[/quote] It can be that they consider themselves significantly different than they were before, but I never meant that someone somehow completely and inherently changes based on having a different trait. [quote]In those cases the person is responding to their experience, which to me means that the change is still their choice. The difference between that and surgically forcing the change on someone is agency.[/QUOTE] I never mentioned forcing anyone to do anything and I definitely do not condone that.
[QUOTE=Explosions;47474235]This is just because our current technology is not advanced enough to alter the brain in the same way that we can alter other body parts. There is no actual distinction between the "physical" and "mental" like you're suggesting. The brain is just another body part. Do you think people are wrong to use prosthetic limbs because we should instead be supporting people who live as complete amputees? The deaf community commonly makes this same argument, demonizing people who use various cures to restore their hearing.[/QUOTE] there needs to be a concrete understanding regarding why gender dysphoria's adverse symptoms occur before these kinds of treatments can be safely authorized if the anxiety and depression experienced by those with GID is primarily internal, perhaps due to some sort of neurological or endocrine problem, then the treatment seems more ethical. but if the root of the anxiety and depression is instead social, i.e. stigmatization and victimization of transpeople, then trying to resolve transpeople's suffering by 'fixing' GID is kind of like to trying to stop antisemitism by clearing jewish ancestry from the gene pool.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47443452]If everyone could safely turn from [B]gay to male[/B] [/QUOTE] I'm sorry this is late but what the fuck
[QUOTE=EuSKalduna;47491917]I'm sorry this is late but what the fuck[/QUOTE] [img]http://facepunch.com/fp/flags/ru.png[/img]
[QUOTE=PelPix123;47443128]Mutually assured destruction preventing war can be bad in cases like this, because sometimes war is the only way to stop someone.[/QUOTE] Then we just need to follow in the footsteps of Ronald Reagan and restart the Star Wars program!
[QUOTE=Explosions;47478592]I never said anything about "entirely new," but they certainly might be different than they were before. Why would a change in sexual orientation or sexual identity mean that a person is completely different than they were before? Sometimes people's entire personalities change over a period of time. A person can have an experience that changes them from a funny, open, jovial person into a jaded and quiet asshole. It happens all the time but we don't think that they're inherently different or something.[/QUOTE] Here's the funny thing this won't lead to a 'cure' for transgenderism. However, it might explain why transgender people exist. As you probably noticed they basically made a bunch of male rats that had female bodies, AKA transgender mice. They were not however, able to reverse it.
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