I don't think we should invoke it at all, even though the referendum was held. The longer it's delayed the better the chance of it being buried entirely.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50609079]I don't think we should invoke it at all, even though the referendum was held. The longer it's delayed the better the chance of it being buried entirely.[/QUOTE]
There's no chance of it being buried, its government agenda, for current government and next. House of Commons made that pretty clear.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50609098]There's no chance of it being buried, its government agenda, for current government and next. House of Commons made that pretty clear.[/QUOTE]
House of Commons is pretty pro-EU though.
I also can't find the source for "house of commons made it clear that the referendum would be followed no matter what"
[QUOTE=EcksDee;50609195]House of Commons is pretty pro-EU though.
I also can't find the source for "house of commons made it clear that the referendum would be followed no matter what"[/QUOTE]
Watch the House of Commons session on the Outcome of the EU Referendum. Cameron has locked down that it's happening, government units been assembled etc. But he has made it clear it sits in the next government's hands when they decide to invoke.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50609098]There's no chance of it being buried, its government agenda, for current government and next. House of Commons made that pretty clear.[/QUOTE]
it was government agenda to make "open source politics to increase transparency" the speeches and graphics promising that were ironically hidden and made difficult to access.
"government agenda" isn't written in stone especially when its so awful for the country. That said I think europe might force us out, they're sick of us and our stupidity, our getting in the way of things, our arbitrary opposition to things, our euroskeptic meps and our incessant demands for special treatment.
[editline]28th June 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50609207]Watch the House of Commons session on the Outcome of the EU Referendum. Cameron has locked down that it's happening, government units been assembled etc. But he has made it clear it sits in the next government's hands when they decide to invoke.[/QUOTE]
If Boris values his career more than he values leaving the EU (hint: he does.) he'll put it off indefinitely.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50609207]Watch the House of Commons session on the Outcome of the EU Referendum. Cameron has locked down that it's happening, government units been assembled etc. But he has made it clear it sits in the next government's hands when they decide to invoke.[/QUOTE]
Cameron is the biggest tosspot modern Britain has ever had the displeasure of having. He has kicked this whole thing off, back peddled, and now refuses to be the man that goes down in history as the pm that took us out of the EU.
I did like corbyn as a favourite for pm however these days I'm unsure. I didn't want another Scottish indy ref after things died down and my nerves were calmed but now I really wouldn't mind seeing Scotland stand on it's own as the the argument England had for us to stay had just went down the shitter.
[URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-nwKX6LrC4[/URL]
EU Debate
After debate comment: Looks like theres of unhappy people, but also people proud that the UK has achieved what it has. Reciting the issues of the EU and how people just blame all the problems on nationalists etc, but not actually getting anywhere.
[QUOTE=Menien Goneld;50605369]I agree, why don't we push it back, say, indefinitely?[/QUOTE]
Because the EU won't suffer as much if things are resolved quickly.
The EU has already suffered some (somewhat minor) damage because of this. Allowing things to drag out keeps the markets uncertain about the future, and perpetuates the damage. By forcing Britain to put up or shut up, the EU only benefits. In the next year or two, they might suffer a hiccup, but it's faaaarr better than 5 or even 10 years of nobody having a fucking clue what will happen next Tuesday.
Remember, at this point, the EU isn't trying to live in harmony with the UK. In fact, they have enormous economic and political incentives not to touch this in any way shape or form. The ball is in the UK's court. Shit or get off the pot.
[QUOTE=Knurr;50606460]Basically the UE seems to be butthurt. That's it! Like children. Beig mad. Because the second one simply do want to play some game the first one wants.
The real face of European Union.[/QUOTE]
I know its international politics and diplomacy and all, but at this point they have every right to be "childish" as you so put it.
As someone who lives here, I have no idea what makes the UK supposedly so special. Not exactly part of the Schengen zone, not part of the Euro, managed to get special concessions to guarantee their stay in the EU just months ago, yet decided to let the future of an extremely complex arrangement to be decided by a completely ignorant public (including both sides here), used lies, omissions and half truths throughout the campaign process to vilify the EU, people living in many European countries and many people who don't even have anything to do with the EU, shat on or belittled pretty much everything EU stands for and insulted both the elected officials and bureaucrats working for a united Europe.
And now all this indecision, backpedalling and foot dragging is costing the rest of the EU money, time and energy. It is causing doubts for other member states, it is providing a base for many far right parties in the member countries. Fuck it, for all the UK has done I think EU has been amazingly civil and understanding.
Won't the EU win either way? If we leave then obviously they get rid of all this crap and can concentrate on recovering.
And if we call all this off and remain, wouldn't it send out a pretty clear message to the other states of the EU that a country that had special privileges couldn't even leave?
[QUOTE=HazzaHardie;50605344]The leave voters are[/QUOTE]
keep on shaming people with a different opinion, because that's going to solve things, right?
[QUOTE=space1;50609698]keep on shaming people with a different opinion, because that's going to solve things, right?[/QUOTE]
when that opinion has fucked up the country, you're a tool if you think you're not getting shamed for it
much like if someone held the opinion that they should drink and drive, and they crash the fucking car with everyone in it, i'd probably shame them too
[QUOTE=space1;50609698]keep on shaming people with a different opinion, because that's going to solve things, right?[/QUOTE]
A very costly different opinion.
[QUOTE=space1;50609698]keep on shaming people with a different opinion, because that's going to solve things, right?[/QUOTE]
I imagine if America decided to vote to abolish the 2nd amendment with a 51% share of the vote, then gun owners would be very happy being told "don't shame people with a different opinion"
[QUOTE=Fetret;50609576]I know its international politics and diplomacy and all, but at this point they have every right to be "childish" as you so put it.
As someone who lives here, I have no idea what makes the UK supposedly so special. Not exactly part of the Schengen zone, not part of the Euro, managed to get special concessions to guarantee their stay in the EU just months ago, yet decided to let the future of an extremely complex arrangement to be decided by a completely ignorant public (including both sides here), used lies, omissions and half truths throughout the campaign process to vilify the EU, people living in many European countries and many people who don't even have anything to do with the EU, shat on or belittled pretty much everything EU stands for and insulted both the elected officials and bureaucrats working for a united Europe.
And now all this indecision, backpedalling and foot dragging is costing the rest of the EU money, time and energy. It is causing doubts for other member states, it is providing a base for many far right parties in the member countries. Fuck it, for all the UK has done I think EU has been amazingly civil and understanding.[/QUOTE]
Alternatively I feel that it's good to have a descenting voice within the EU, everyone seems to be agreeing that the EU is in need of serious reform. The leaders of the EU announced that reforms would be taking place to counter other countries wanting to leave thanks to brexit.
I beleive the best descions are made when not everyone agrees so that things can be debated and improved. The UK being a strong contributor to the EU for the last 40 years has allowed it to move in a more positive direction. I feel it's presence provides a good counterweight, surely no one wants the EU to be dominated by just France and Germany?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50609763]I imagine if America decided to vote to abolish the 2nd amendment with a 51% share of the vote, then gun owners would be very happy being told "don't shame people with a different opinion"[/QUOTE]
there's a difference between abolishing an unremovable right and a country leaving the EU
[QUOTE=Map in a box;50610171]there's a difference between abolishing an unremovable right and a country leaving the EU[/QUOTE]
consider this
EU law is a fundamental part of the UK's constitution, even secondary schoolers are taught this
imagine if a source of law in the american legal system disappeared
(like an amendment)
I don't think many outside of the UK realise that the UK doesn't have a single codified Constitution.
[QUOTE=space1;50609698]keep on shaming people with a different opinion, because that's going to solve things, right?[/QUOTE]
If they're outright flaming people, just report them for it.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;50610217]consider this
EU law is a fundamental part of the UK's constitution, even secondary schoolers are taught this
imagine if a source of law in the american legal system disappeared
(like an amendment)[/QUOTE]
i think they would have thought of that and its not exactly unreasonable to believe that they'd add equivilants to their law
[QUOTE=space1;50609698]keep on shaming people with a different opinion, because that's going to solve things, right?[/QUOTE]
You're entitled to whatever opinion you want. You aren't entitled to your own set of facts. It was a fact that leave would be suicidal. Anyone with a functioning brain and internet access could have figured this out with 30 seconds worth of research.
Any dipshit who voted leave should consider themselves blessed if all that happens is them getting publicly called a fuckwit.
[QUOTE=Map in a box;50610171]there's a difference between abolishing an unremovable right and a country leaving the EU[/QUOTE]
Leaving the EU removes a lot of basic rights that a European citizen has and effectively strips tens of millions of people of their citizenship unwillingly.
I see it as entirely comparable.
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;50610970]You're entitled to whatever opinion you want. You aren't entitled to your own set of facts. It was a fact that leave would be suicidal. Anyone with a functioning brain and internet access could have figured this out with 30 seconds worth of research.
Any dipshit who voted leave should consider themselves blessed if all that happens is they get publicly called a fuckwit.[/QUOTE]
It's not the facts, it's who was telling them and where it was coming from.
Remain consistantly failed to realise that.
[QUOTE=Map in a box;50605699]Doesn't mean negotiations couldn't be made for the betterment of all the nations. "Oh you're leaving the EU, we're going to not have talks about our issues for the potential betterment of the EU and UK!"[/QUOTE]
It's a lot more complicated. You can't really talk about what ifs if the UK leaves, unless they do actually invoke art 50. Until they do, the whole thing is in an uncertain morass where no one knows where they are standing.
Once art 50 is triggered both the EU and the UK have a set maximum time and a process in place on what will happen. Until that happens the UK is a Schroedinger's member that can suddenly turn around and say - nah, we've decided against it. Then pivot around and say no we actually want it.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;50610217]consider this
EU law is a fundamental part of the UK's constitution, even secondary schoolers are taught this
imagine if a source of law in the american legal system disappeared
(like an amendment)[/QUOTE]
There's actually significant discussion on where exactly does EU law sit in regards to national constitutions. It's obviously above standard laws, the primacy of EU law is guaranteed. But whether it's below, above or on the same level as national constitutions (and or laws on a similar level as the UK for instance doesn't have a codified constitution and many countries have multiple documents which together form constitutional law) is a matter of significant debate.
Likewise, people have to remember that not all EU legislature stops working after the UK is no longer party to agreements. A significant portion of EU law isn't directly applicable, but instead member states have to implement it. All laws which were implemented in the past are still a part of the UK legal system.
[QUOTE=Fr3ddi3;50611303]It's not the facts, it's who was telling them and where it was coming from.
Remain consistantly failed to realise that.[/QUOTE]
so people didn't listen because they didn't like who was saying it? so they listened to fuckin [I]farage[/I]?
[QUOTE=TCB;50613747]so people didn't listen because they didn't like who was saying it? so they listened to fuckin [I]farage[/I]?[/QUOTE]
As i've said across many threads, David Camron was the figurehead of the remain campaign, the leader of the Tory party and cheif instigator of alot of peoples pain and misery through british politics the last 8 years, he never listened to the public. Privatising the NHS, Bedroom Tax, Benefits cuts, disability allowanc, Zero Hours Contracts so on and so on, Everything he and the Tories has done have really aliented a fuck lot of the lower classes in the UK.
If someone won't listen to you, why the fuck would you listen to them? So yes, people chose to hop into bed with a different Devil who listend to people and 'promised' to fix things for them.
Point en case, everyone with a brain knows the Tories are actively trying to privatise the NHS and they are not being very subtle about it with the smear campaign to destroy it's reputation, so how does Farrage win that debate? Say he'll put money into it and won't privatise it. Game set and fucking match he wins that argument, whever he follows through or not is neither here nor there.
To put it another way, David Camron comes out and says "i feel it's in the best interest of Britian to stay in the EU", it easily gets interpreted as "I feel it's within my best interest to stay in the EU, at your expense" and all the fearmongering get's read as "we've got their balls in a vice and their scared so they're resorting the cheap scare tactics". wheeling out Bankers and Company executvies who are not working class, have money, and are regarded as Tory voters with their facts was having the same effect. Another thing I pointed out was 'Freedom of Travel across europe' and how remain was saying it's a good thing because you can go on holiday easier, missing the point that working class people havent got the damn money to go on holiday abroad because of what the Tories have been bloody doing to them. So who's benefitting for that if the working class isnt? Bankers, Excutives, Tories aka Them.
I apologise if this was jumbled mess, it's late and im tired so i'll try and sum up, this vote was an US (lower class) verses Them (upper class) as much if not more than it was about the actual EU, Remain needed to tell people why the EU was good for the average person, but in order to do that it needed to understand the average persons and their circumstance, and thats pretty hard to do if you don't listen to them and shit all over them.
Remain never cottoned onto that so it played right into leaves hands.
[QUOTE=Fr3ddi3;50613984]As i've said across many threads, David Camron was the figurehead of the remain campaign, the leader of the Tory party and cheif instigator of alot of peoples pain and misery through british politics the last 8 years, he never listened to the public. Privatising the NHS, Bedroom Tax, Benefits cuts, disability allowanc, Zero Hours Contracts so on and so on, Everything he and the Tories has done have really aliented a fuck lot of the lower classes in the UK.
If someone won't listen to you, why the fuck would you listen to them? So yes, people chose to hop into bed with a different Devil who listend to people and 'promised' to fix things for them.
Point en case, everyone with a brain knows the Tories are actively trying to privatise the NHS and they are not being very subtle about it with the smear campaign to destroy it's reputation, so how does Farrage win that debate? Say he'll put money into it and won't privatise it. Game set and fucking match he wins that argument, whever he follows through or not is neither here nor there.
To put it another way, David Camron comes out and says "i feel it's in the best interest of Britian to stay in the EU", it easily gets interpreted as "I feel it's within my best interest to stay in the EU, at your expense" and all the fearmongering get's read as "we've got their balls in a vice and their scared so they're resorting the cheap scare tactics". wheeling out Bankers and Company executvies who are not working class, have money, and are regarded as Tory voters with their facts was having the same effect. Another thing I pointed out was 'Freedom of Travel across europe' and how remain was saying it's a good thing because you can go on holiday easier, missing the point that working class people havent got the damn money to go on holiday abroad because of what the Tories have been bloody doing to them. So who's benefitting for that if the working class isnt? Bankers, Excutives, Tories aka Them.
I apologise if this was jumbled mess, it's late and im tired so i'll try and sum up, this vote was an US (lower class) verses Them (upper class) as much if not more than it was about the actual EU, Remain needed to tell people why the EU was good for the average person, but in order to do that it needed to understand the average persons and their circumstance, and thats pretty hard to do if you don't listen to them and shit all over them.
Remain never cottoned onto that so it played right into leaves hands.[/QUOTE]
But is it too much to ask for voters to find out what they're actually voting for instead of making such a massive decision solely based on their likes or dislikes for what the politicians heading up said movement represent? Because that's the height of stupidity.
[QUOTE=Superkilll307;50606471]Go home Poland, your drunk.[/QUOTE]
When even Ireland tells someone to go home because they're drunk then you know shits about to get real.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50611135]Leaving the EU removes a lot of basic rights that a European citizen has and effectively strips tens of millions of people of their citizenship unwillingly.
I see it as entirely comparable.[/QUOTE]
Except the 2nd amendment was something written with the sole purpose and intent of our own country in mind. In being given rights on the basis of a union perhaps there are spots in which it does not serve your specific country to it's fullest, can you not simply provide those rights now through your own country as is best suited to it as you are now writing it?
This is all part of the exit plan, not sure why people think they are losing "a lot of basic rights", you will gain most of them back. I'm not familiar on EU citizen rights, but do people really think the government isn't working on this? That you'll suddenly leave and lose 90% of your rights. Please.
If this is such a concern, if applicable, then get dual citizenship.
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