[QUOTE=Fr3ddi3;50613984]As i've said across many threads, David Camron was the figurehead of the remain campaign, the leader of the Tory party and cheif instigator of alot of peoples pain and misery through british politics the last 8 years, he never listened to the public. Privatising the NHS, Bedroom Tax, Benefits cuts, disability allowanc, Zero Hours Contracts so on and so on, Everything he and the Tories has done have really aliented a fuck lot of the lower classes in the UK.
If someone won't listen to you, why the fuck would you listen to them? So yes, people chose to hop into bed with a different Devil who listend to people and 'promised' to fix things for them.
Point en case, everyone with a brain knows the Tories are actively trying to privatise the NHS and they are not being very subtle about it with the smear campaign to destroy it's reputation, so how does Farrage win that debate? Say he'll put money into it and won't privatise it. Game set and fucking match he wins that argument, whever he follows through or not is neither here nor there.
To put it another way, David Camron comes out and says "i feel it's in the best interest of Britian to stay in the EU", it easily gets interpreted as "I feel it's within my best interest to stay in the EU, at your expense" and all the fearmongering get's read as "we've got their balls in a vice and their scared so they're resorting the cheap scare tactics". wheeling out Bankers and Company executvies who are not working class, have money, and are regarded as Tory voters with their facts was having the same effect. Another thing I pointed out was 'Freedom of Travel across europe' and how remain was saying it's a good thing because you can go on holiday easier, missing the point that working class people havent got the damn money to go on holiday abroad because of what the Tories have been bloody doing to them. So who's benefitting for that if the working class isnt? Bankers, Excutives, Tories aka Them.
I apologise if this was jumbled mess, it's late and im tired so i'll try and sum up, this vote was an US (lower class) verses Them (upper class) as much if not more than it was about the actual EU, Remain needed to tell people why the EU was good for the average person, but in order to do that it needed to understand the average persons and their circumstance, and thats pretty hard to do if you don't listen to them and shit all over them.
Remain never cottoned onto that so it played right into leaves hands.[/QUOTE]
This is why Corbyn should of taken the stage with Cameron despite their different views. But he was being to petty to do it.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50614377]This is all part of the exit plan, not sure why people think they are losing "a lot of basic rights", you will gain most of them back. I'm not familiar on EU citizen rights, but do people really think the government isn't working on this? That you'll suddenly leave and lose 90% of your rights. Please.[/QUOTE]
Eu has a load of regulations for workers, regulations put forward by the eu. The UK is already one of the least regulated eu members and the Tory party is all about removing regulations.
So yeah your rights and protections might be taken away. That is unless we're in the eea in which case we'd have to follow those regulations still, abs have free movement and send money to the eu.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;50614401]Eu has a load of regulations for workers, regulations put forward by the eu. The UK is already one of the least regulated eu members and the Tory party is all about removing regulations.
So yeah your rights and protections might be taken away. That is unless we're in the eea in which case we'd have to follow those regulations still, abs have free movement and send money to the eu.[/QUOTE]
At that point, welcome to the rest of the world where you vote for the side who give you the most rights.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50614410]At that point, welcome to the rest of the world where you vote for the side who give you the most rights.[/QUOTE]
You overestimate the british election system.
All of the country's problems are blamed on immigrants. Every election.
You can't win if you don't blame immigrants. The media are party to this great scam.
The tories are pushing further right wing and labour are following them. Tories pushed years of crippling austerity, damaging the economy, causing a second recession, selling off publically owned services at a great loss to the tax payer, doubling the national debt, not collecting taxes from corperations - they get elected after all that shit!!! They blamed the 2008 collapse on labour (caused by lack of regulations on banks) and didn't do shit about the banks. Blamed immigrants but let more in than ever and lost count of how many were actually coming in (I'm not opposed to immigration but those who are get all aggro about this)
1 simple trick to get elected 100%! learn it before its made ILLEGAL
Honestly though I've lost faith in the political system in the UK. I don't trust our government to protect our interests and I don't trust the electorate to vote for a government that will. The EU regulations are a safeguard and I genuinely fear what the government will do if they can manage to drop the regulations.
Please don't be mistaken in thinking our electorate can vote intelligently.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;50614838]Please don't be mistaken in thinking our electorate can vote intelligently.[/QUOTE]
You'd be surprised about the bs the rest of us have to put up with. My country votes right 'pretend center' party, because the guy in charge use to be a currency trader and that somehow makes him qualified to fix all our problems, even though he brings cuts left, right and center, and yet our economy is still shit and we cling to one export which without we would not be on any map.
Don't think that any voting electorate is voting intelligently anywhere.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50614850]You'd be surprised about the bs the rest of us have to put up with. My country votes right 'pretend center' party, because the guy in charge use to be a currency trader and that somehow makes him qualified to fix all our problems, even though he brings cuts left, right and center, and yet our economy is still shit and we cling to one export which without we would not be on any map.
Don't think that any voting electorate is voting intelligently anywhere.[/QUOTE]
Iceland's democracy seems reasonable but I guess the grass is always greener etc.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;50609750]when that opinion has fucked up the country, you're a tool if you think you're not getting shamed for it
much like if someone held the opinion that they should drink and drive, and they crash the fucking car with everyone in it, i'd probably shame them too[/QUOTE]
Yes because saying "LEAVE VOTERS ARE FUCKING TEENAGERS" is clearly justifiable. I hate it when people demonize/dehumanize/slander the other side without good cause.
Hell, I would have voted leave just so I could profit off of the stock rebounds and feather my own purse, I'm not gonna lie. It's extremely self-motivated but all the other big finance boys are gonna do it anyway so I might as well grab a piece of the pie.
[QUOTE=space1;50615080]Yes because saying "LEAVE VOTERS ARE FUCKING TEENAGERS" is clearly justifiable. I hate it when people demonize/dehumanize/slander the other side without good cause.
Hell, I would have voted leave just so I could profit off of the stock rebounds and feather my own purse, I'm not gonna lie, as "evil" as that may be.[/QUOTE]
How does "i coul be a selfish asshole exploiting others" make for any argument at all?
[QUOTE=Killuah;50615084]How does "i coul be a selfish asshole exploiting others" make for any argument at all?[/QUOTE]
I mean "sovereignty" among other things. I really just want to see the EU and Germany crumble. Hopefully knocking them back to their post WW1 economy will shake up the government again, and maybe they'll grow enough of a spine to finally tell Erdogan to fuck off.
I'd also like to see more diplomacy with Russia, and just because they're terrible people doesn't mean they aren't people. The bottom line is it's time to stop demonizing them as some sort "axis of evil" that exists solely to be the bane of the West.
[QUOTE=space1;50615089]I mean "sovereignty" among other things. I really just want to see the EU and Germany crumble. Hopefully knocking them back to their post WW1 economy will shake up the government again, and maybe they'll grow enough of a spine to finally tell Erdogan to fuck off.[/QUOTE]
What the fuck
[QUOTE=space1;50615089]I mean "sovereignty" among other things. I really just want to see the EU and Germany crumble. Hopefully knocking them back to their post WW1 economy will shake up the government again, and maybe they'll grow enough of a spine to finally tell Erdogan to fuck off.
I'd also like to see more diplomacy with Russia, and just because they're terrible people doesn't mean they aren't people. The bottom line is it's time to stop demonizing them as some sort "axis of evil" that exists solely to be the bane of the West.[/QUOTE]
Do you also vote Trump hoping he will default on the US national debt to give the US a clean sheet to start over on?
This is like, borderline sociopathic.
[QUOTE=space1;50615089]I mean "sovereignty" among other things. I really just want to see the EU and Germany crumble. Hopefully knocking them back to their post WW1 economy will shake up the government again, and maybe they'll grow enough of a spine to finally tell Erdogan to fuck off.
I'd also like to see more diplomacy with Russia, and just because they're terrible people doesn't mean they aren't people. The bottom line is it's time to stop demonizing them as some sort "axis of evil" that exists solely to be the bane of the West.[/QUOTE]First the sovereignity you guys is just something you guys think because you guys gained literally no sovereignity. And both Putin and Erdman should fuck off.
Why can't britain invoke article 50 so idiots like him will realise how important being in eu is and how fucked up the leave choice was.
[QUOTE=space1;50615089]I mean "sovereignty" among other things. I really just want to see the EU and Germany crumble. Hopefully knocking them back to their post WW1 economy will shake up the government again, and maybe they'll grow enough of a spine to finally tell Erdogan to fuck off.
I'd also like to see more diplomacy with Russia, and just because they're terrible people doesn't mean they aren't people. The bottom line is it's time to stop demonizing them as some sort "axis of evil" that exists solely to be the bane of the West.[/QUOTE]
I, too, would like to see the livelihoods of literal [i]millions[/i] of people completely ruined so I can play out my real-life EU4 fantasies.
[QUOTE=Killuah;50615092]What the fuck[/QUOTE]
The European Union and the west in general have been in decline for quite some time, and if we don't make some serious changes to the political landscape, we're fucked. UK leaving the EU should send the right message. However, if it has to be swift or it shouldn't have happened in the first place, as a break in the momentum will deter other member states from following in their footsteps.
[QUOTE=EcksDee;50615107]Do you also vote Trump hoping he will default on the US national debt to give the US a clean sheet to start over on?
This is like, borderline sociopathic.[/QUOTE]
Trump has nothing to do with Europe, but for the record I was a Bernie supporter until I realized he didn't understand economics so I can't really say I'd vote for either of the two front runners. Maybe I'd vote for Noam Chomsky if he were a candidate, but that'll never happen.
[QUOTE=space1;50615089]I really just want to see the EU and Germany crumble. Hopefully knocking them back to their post WW1 economy will shake up the government again.[/QUOTE]
This right there. The EU and Germany need to go, because they are just running a house of cards with this grand project of theirs.
[QUOTE=space1;50615119]The European Union and the west in general have been in decline for quite some time, and if we don't make some serious changes to the political landscape, we're fucked. UK leaving the EU should send the right message. However, if it has to be swift or it shouldn't have happened in the first place, as a break in the momentum will deter other member states from following in their footsteps.[/QUOTE]
So you propose to fuck over millions of people, cause probably millions of families to lose their livelyhood because else, we are "fucked"?
Why does Brexit bring out all the sociopaths?
[editline]29th June 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50615129]This right there. The EU and Germany need to go.[/QUOTE]
Jesus fucking christ you live in New Zealand dude, come visit and decide for yourself if anyone needs to go
[QUOTE=Killuah;50615131]So you propose to fuck over millions of people, cause probably millions of families to lose their livelyhood because else, we are "fucked"?
Why does Brexit bring out all the sociopaths?
[editline]29th June 2016[/editline]
Jesus fucking christ you live in New Zealand dude, come visit and decide for yourself if anyone needs to go[/QUOTE]
If in the end, 30, 50, or maybe even 80 years from now the state of both America and the EU are much better off because of this, wouldn't it be a win for everyone?
I guess it wouldn't really be called the EU after that, though.
[QUOTE=space1;50615119]The European Union and the west in general have been in decline for quite some time, and if we don't make some serious changes to the political landscape, we're fucked. UK leaving the EU should send the right message. However, if it has to be swift or it shouldn't have happened in the first place, as a break in the momentum will deter other member states from following in their footsteps.[/QUOTE]
Oh really, is that why the EU's real GDP and quality of life has been going up and its world trade presence is increasing and everything is pretty damn good tbh.
[url]http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&init=1&language=en&pcode=tsdec100&plugin=1[/url]
[url]http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/International_trade_in_goods[/url]
I get that the American educational system is what it is, but do try to at least make an effort, m8.
[QUOTE=Boilrig;50615129]This right there. The EU and Germany need to go, because they are just running a house of cards with this grand project of theirs.[/QUOTE]You guys are [B]severely[/B] underestimating other countries say in EU especially UK.
[QUOTE=space1;50615119]The European Union and the west in general have been in decline for quite some time, and if we don't make some serious changes to the political landscape, we're fucked. UK leaving the EU should send the right message. However, if it has to be swift or it shouldn't have happened in the first place, as a break in the momentum will deter other member states from following in their footsteps.
Trump has nothing to do with Europe, but for the record I was a Bernie supporter until I realized he didn't understand economics so I can't really say I'd vote for either of the two front runners. Maybe I'd vote for Noam Chomsky if he were a candidate, but that'll never happen.[/QUOTE]
Look at you thinking you'll get smart-boy points by repping Chomsky without even knowing his positions.
Chomsky is pro Bernie.
Chomsky is against the concept of nation states.
Like come on m8, not fooling anyone. This retarded shit you're spouting about the EU needing to crumble could literally be a Trump quote.
[QUOTE=space1;50615138]If in the end, 30, 50, or maybe even 80 years from now the state of both America and the EU are much better off because of this, wouldn't it be a win for everyone?
I guess it wouldn't really be called the EU after that, though.[/QUOTE]
This is not how the world works, this kind of ultilitaristic shit never worked and never will, get out more and socialize, this is my honest well-intentioned advice for you, your opinions are borderline sociopathic
[QUOTE=EcksDee;50615153]Oh really, is that why the EU's real GDP and quality of life has been going up and its world trade presence is increasing and everything is pretty damn good tbh.
[URL]http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&init=1&language=en&pcode=tsdec100&plugin=1[/URL]
[URL]http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/International_trade_in_goods[/URL]
I get that the American educational system is what it is, but do try to at least make an effort, m8.[/QUOTE]
Yet the Euro and the Dollar have tanked numerous times, taking hit after hit. They both also rely too heavily on the foreign market, especially for important things like oil.
Once America goes belly-up from the lack of manufacturing and a stagnant job market, the wave that it creates will wreak havoc in Europe's economy.
[QUOTE=Killuah;50615165]This is not how the world works, this kind of ultilitaristic shit never worked and never will, get out more and socialize, this is my honest well-intentioned advice for you, your opinions are borderline sociopathic[/QUOTE]
How do you think I get such opinions, in an echo chamber? Maybe you need to socialize and not limit yourself to one side. Sure, recently liberals gave us civil rights and various other things I believe in, but they've also given us the nazis, communism, restrictions on speech, etc.
My point is that you can't find the right answers based on what you feel is "right", or being limited to just one side. You need to take all sides into account, and decide what will work best with objective, sound reasoning to back it.
I may sound a bit all over the place, but I haven't slept in well over 36 hours, so I apologise if it's hard to follow.
[QUOTE=space1;50615183]Yet the Euro and the Dollar have tanked numerous times, taking hit after hit. They both also rely too heavily on the foreign market, especially for important things like oil.[/QUOTE]
And yet, like I said, real GDP is going up, wages have (generally) gone up more than enough to compensate for depreciation, and for oil specifically, Green local sources of energy are the fastest growing sources of power in the EU.
[editline]29th June 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=space1;50615183]
Once America goes belly-up from the lack of manufacturing and a stagnant job market, the wave that it creates will wreak havoc in Europe's economy.[/QUOTE]
And is that anything to do with the concept of the EU or USA, or more to do with the fact that Americans are retards who vote for the people who worst represent their interests. Same for Brits.
[editline]29th June 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=space1;50615183]
How do you think I get such opinions, in an echo chamber? Maybe you need to socialize and not limit yourself to one side. Sure, recently liberals gave us civil rights and various other things I believe in, but they've also given us the nazis, communism, restrictions on speech, etc.
My point is that you can't find the right answers based on what you feel is "right", or being limited to just one side. You need to take all sides into account, and decide what will work best with objective, sound reasoning to back it.
I may sound a bit all over the place, but I haven't slept in well over 36 hours, so I apologise if it's hard to follow.[/QUOTE]
Well you do get it from an echochamber. Either that or you consciously selectively look at data, because the DATA, and the FACTS show, that the west, all things considered, is doing well.
[QUOTE=space1;50615138]If in the end, 30, 50, or maybe even 80 years from now the state of both America and the EU are much better off because of this, wouldn't it be a win for everyone?
I guess it wouldn't really be called the EU after that, though.[/QUOTE]
I'm not going to ruin the lives of every fucking person for the entire century thank you
I mean humans destroy the Earth, if we just nuked all of us wouldn't it be a win for the planet?
[editline]29th June 2016[/editline]
I'm just gonna ruin my and everyone else's life so that [I]someday[/I], [I]perhaps[/I] in the future that I will never see things will get better
[QUOTE=space1;50615183]
How do you think I get such opinions, in an echo chamber? Maybe you need to socialize and not limit yourself to one side. Sure, recently liberals gave us civil rights and various other things I believe in, but they've also given us the nazis, communism, restrictions on speech, etc.
My point is that you can't find the right answers based on what you feel is "right", or being limited to just one side. You need to take all sides into account, and decide what will work best with objective, sound reasoning to back it.
I may sound a bit all over the place, but I haven't slept in well over 36 hours, so I apologise if it's hard to follow.[/QUOTE]
Fix your life before telling lecturing others like holy shit you are not hard to follow you are actually very easy to follow
[QUOTE=Killuah;50616575]Fix your life before telling lecturing others like holy shit you are not hard to follow you are actually very easy to follow[/QUOTE]
You made this personal, for whatever reason.
[QUOTE=EcksDee;50615202]And yet, like I said, real GDP is going up, wages have (generally) gone up more than enough to compensate for depreciation, and for oil specifically, Green local sources of energy are the fastest growing sources of power in the EU.
[editline]29th June 2016[/editline]
And is that anything to do with the concept of the EU or USA, or more to do with the fact that Americans are retards who vote for the people who worst represent their interests. Same for Brits.
[editline]29th June 2016[/editline]
Well you do get it from an echochamber. Either that or you consciously selectively look at data, because the DATA, and the FACTS show, that the west, all things considered, is doing well.[/QUOTE]
It's not an echochamber. None of what you said really counteracts the fact that the US has not much domestic manufacturing. The main reason the United Kingdom was wealthy in the first place was because of colonialism, and now that those policies have ended and they've got few natural resources of their own to contribute to the international market, what long term staying power do they have? Sure, they do look good on paper, but there are several underlying issues when it comes to the way the economy is based in the US and the EU. The main manufacturer in the EU is Germany, and their exports are more than DOUBLE that of the closest second. On top of that, export sales from the UK depreciated 9.9% between 2011 and 2015, indicating that their manufacturing market was already declining. - [URL]http://www.worldstopexports.com/top-european-export-countries/[/URL]
What are the experts saying? Undeniable failure of the US market in the next 50-80 years if current trends continue, and that WILL definitely be a problem for Europe judging from how the 2008 recession spread. They need to build a market less reliant on the US and more reliant on other places, or just increase their own self reliance. That's all they can really do.
[QUOTE=space1;50615183]Sure, recently liberals gave us civil rights and various other things I believe in, but they've also given us the nazis, communism, restrictions on speech, etc.[/QUOTE]
liberalism gave rise to communists and nazis?
i'm not sure how to respond to this
It's shit like this that shows how horrible EU is. They act like children and now that UK is leaving they are doing everything in their power to try to make it fail rather than act in good faith.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50616712]liberalism gave rise to communists and nazis?
i'm not sure how to respond to this[/QUOTE]
I mean, socialism is literally a liberal ideology, I don't know what to tell you. Did you ever learn up on politics? What are Nazis? They're also socialists. I don't know any other way to interpret what is as black and white as that, sobotnik. I guess defining the political spectrum with only 1 dimension isn't the best idea since stuff like this is considered "on the same side", but I'm still right. Here, educate yourself: [URL="https://www.politicalcompass.org/authleftbooks"]https://www.politicalcompass.org/authleftbooks
[/URL]
[QUOTE=space1;50616899]I mean, socialism is literally a liberal ideology, I don't know what to tell you. Did you ever learn up on politics? What are Nazis? They're also socialists. I don't know any other way to interpret what is as black and white as that sobotnik. I guess defining the political spectrum with only 1 dimension isn't the best idea since stuff like this is considered "on the same side", but I'm still right. Here, educate yourself: [URL="https://www.politicalcompass.org/authleftbooks"]https://www.politicalcompass.org/authleftbooks
[/URL][/QUOTE]I'd say nazis were more centralish and no its not black and white. Nazi german had both private corporation and capitalism.
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