[QUOTE=Metist;50616835]It's shit like this that shows how horrible EU is. They act like children and now that UK is leaving they are doing everything in their power to try to make it fail rather than act in good faith.[/QUOTE]
What does the EU owe the UK?
The UK just said "fuck you we're leaving", with our most well-known MEP giving them a "NAAA NAAA" speech in the parliament.
What do they owe the UK other than utter contempt?
[QUOTE=space1;50616899]I mean, socialism is literally a liberal ideology, I don't know what to tell you. Did you ever learn up on politics?[/quote]
yes i did
socialism is a philosophy based on the common ownership of the means of production (industry, resources, etc)
liberalism is a philosophy based on liberty and equality
[quote]What are Nazis? They're also socialists.[/quote]
how exactly
[quote]I don't know any other way to interpret what is as black and white as that, sobotnik. I guess defining the political spectrum with only 1 dimension isn't the best idea since stuff like this is considered "on the same side", but I'm still right. Here, educate yourself: [URL="https://www.politicalcompass.org/authleftbooks"]https://www.politicalcompass.org/authleftbooks[/QUOTE]
have you even read any of those books?
[QUOTE=space1;50616899]I mean, socialism is literally a liberal ideology, I don't know what to tell you. Did you ever learn up on politics? What are Nazis? They're also socialists. I don't know any other way to interpret what is as black and white as that, sobotnik. I guess defining the political spectrum with only 1 dimension isn't the best idea since stuff like this is considered "on the same side", but I'm still right. Here, educate yourself: [URL="https://www.politicalcompass.org/authleftbooks"]https://www.politicalcompass.org/authleftbooks
[/URL][/QUOTE]
Nazism was far-right fascism, not socialism, no matter what the name of the party says. Leftists, socialists, and communists were all killed in the holocaust. At one point, early on, Dachau was mostly full of socialists and communists before they started rounding up the Jews.
Nazis are absolutely not socialists in any capacity. A passing glance at history will tell you that. Do you think Bertolt Brecht fled Nazi Germany because, as a socialist and a Marxist, he was scared that a socialist party was now in power?
It's like assuming that the Democratic Peoples' Republic of Korea is actually a Democratic Peoples' Republic and not a dictatorship, just because that's what the name says. Nazis were not socialists, and the fact that you think so makes me really doubt everything you've been saying up to this point.
[QUOTE=CoreWaffle;50616929]I'd say nazis were more centralish and no its not black and white. Nazi german had both private corporation and capitalism.[/QUOTE]
I mean you can argue it all you want but the fact of the matter is that socialism has always been considered a liberal ideology. Nazi Germany did have universal healthcare and state sponsored incentives to get the populace to do certain things. For instance, there was a policy where couples who married and had kids would receive state benefits(Or something like that)
[QUOTE=space1;50616899]I mean, socialism is literally a liberal ideology, I don't know what to tell you. Did you ever learn up on politics? What are Nazis? They're also socialists. I don't know any other way to interpret what is as black and white as that, sobotnik. I guess defining the political spectrum with only 1 dimension isn't the best idea since stuff like this is considered "on the same side", but I'm still right. Here, educate yourself: [URL="https://www.politicalcompass.org/authleftbooks"]https://www.politicalcompass.org/authleftbooks
[/URL][/QUOTE]
Nazis were not socialists
You read the words "national socialism" and you stopped there didn't you?
The nazis were literally the opposite of socialism in just about every meaningful way
[QUOTE=space1;50617025]I mean you can argue it all you want but the fact of the matter is that socialism has always been considered a liberal ideology. Nazi Germany did have universal healthcare and state sponsored incentives to get the populace to do certain things. For instance, there was a policy where couples who married and had kids would receive state benefits(Or something like that)[/QUOTE]
You mean, like, in the United States, where married couples get tax deductions? And tax deductions for each of their dependents?
"liberalism" and "socialism" aren't "everything left of anarcho-capitalism," man. Universal healthcare isn't socialism lol, the social ownership of capital is socialism. Did Nazi Germany nationalize all industry and send every citizen an ownership share?
You think universal healthcare is socialism and that nazis are leftists - how do you take yourself seriously?
[QUOTE=space1;50617025]I mean you can argue it all you want but the fact of the matter is that socialism has always been considered a liberal ideology. Nazi Germany did have universal healthcare and state sponsored incentives to get the populace to do certain things. For instance, there was a policy where couples who married and had kids would receive state benefits(Or something like that)[/QUOTE]
Yeah. Why? Because the policy of "lebensraum". Germany for the Germans, and Germans needed more kids and more people.
You assume the strangest shit.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;50617043]You mean, like, in the United States, where married couples get tax deductions? And tax deductions for each of their dependents?
"liberalism" and "socialism" aren't "everything left of anarcho-capitalism," man. Universal healthcare isn't socialism lol, the social ownership of capital is socialism. Did Nazi Germany nationalize all industry and send every citizen an ownership share?
You think universal healthcare is socialism and that nazis are leftists - how do you take yourself seriously?[/QUOTE]
I think they paid for part of their mortgage or something along those lines. I'll have to find a source to confirm.
Universal healthcare is generally a predominant feature of socialist governments. They don't call it "social democracy" for no good reason.
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50617062]"Socialism is a liberal ideology" is gotta be the most politically ignorant statement of FP2016[/QUOTE]
well if you want specifics, it's a LIBERAL AUTHORITARIAN ideology. I even said it was odd how it's considered as such.
[QUOTE=space1;50617079]I think they paid for part of their mortgage or something along those lines. I'll have to find a source to confirm.
Universal healthcare is generally a predominant feature of socialist governments. They don't call it "social democracy" for no good reason.
well if you want specifics, it's a LIBERAL AUTHORITARIAN ideology. I even said it was odd how it's considered as such.[/QUOTE]Ffs dude social democracy has a few elements of socialism yes but no its not socialism. Socialism means that the people own everything which means no capitalism which social democracy have. Everything isn't black and white.
[editline]29th June 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=space1;50617079]
well if you want specifics, it's a LIBERAL AUTHORITARIAN ideology. I even said it was odd how it's considered as such.[/QUOTE]Nazism is not liberal authoritarian, it doesn't even exist. Liberalism and authoritarian fundementals contradict each other it's like each others antithesis.
[QUOTE=CoreWaffle;50617096]Ffs dude social democracy has a few elements of socialism yes but no its not socialism. Socialism means that the people own everything which means no capitalism which social democracy have. Everything isn't black and white.
[editline]29th June 2016[/editline]
Nazism is not liberal authoritarian it doesn't even exist. Liberalism and authoritarian fundementals contradict each other it's like each others antithesis.[/QUOTE]
then what the fuck are you arguing for?
You misunderstand what I'm saying. Left/liberal and right/conservative only deal with economics. Libertarian and authoritarian are the social aspects of the scale.
[QUOTE=space1;50617079]I think they paid for part of their mortgage or something along those lines. I'll have to find a source to confirm.
Universal healthcare is generally a predominant feature of socialist governments. They don't call it "social democracy" for no good reason.[/QUOTE]
Now, are you talking about social democracies, or socialism? Because I really don't think you have an understanding of the nuances of these ideas.
You can have an [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union"]authoritarian state capitalist socialist society[/URL], and you can have a voluntary [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism"]libertarian socialist[/URL] society. One is a dictatorship, and one is over-optimistic anarchy.
A social democracy, as seen in Scandinavia, is not socialism. Socialism implies [i]public ownership of the means of production[/i] - that isn't the case in Scandinavia. Most of the Nordic states are social democracies, meaning that they tend to redistribute the wealth created through [I]private ownership[/I] of the means of production. Socialism implies classlessness - how is there supposed to be "class" when every citizen owns an equal share of the means of production? Social democracies have classes, they just seek to minimize the effects of class through... social... democracy...
US education sucks at political science, read up and try again.
space1 did u actually read any of those books you linked me
[QUOTE=space1;50617110]then what the fuck are you arguing for?[/QUOTE]Im arguing because you keep posting idiotic, false statements.
[QUOTE=space1;50617110]then what the fuck are you arguing for?[/QUOTE]
Youve redefined terms so that everything sounds consistent to you.
But no one else uses those terms as you do, so what you're saying is meaningless.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;50617111]Now, are you talking about social democracies, or socialism? Because I really don't think you have an understanding of the nuances of these ideas.
You can have an [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union"]authoritarian state capitalist socialist society[/URL], and you can have a voluntary [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism"]libertarian socialist[/URL] society. One is a dictatorship, and one is over-optimistic anarchy.
A social democracy, as seen in Scandinavia, is not socialism. Socialism implies [I]public ownership of the means of production[/I] - that isn't the case in Scandinavia. Most of the Nordic states are social democracies, meaning that they tend to redistribute the wealth created through [I]private ownership[/I] of the means of production. Socialism implies classlessness - how is there supposed to be "class" when every citizen owns an equal share of the means of production? Social democracies have classes, they just seek to minimize the effects of class through... social... democracy...
US education sucks at political science, read up and try again.[/QUOTE]
Can we stop getting held up on semantics? I completely understand the idea of ignoring the laffer curve and destroying the government's revenue for bullshit class warfare well enough already.
[QUOTE=space1;50617141]Can we stop getting held up on semantics?[/QUOTE]
You're literally only trying to argue semantics though...
The nazis were not liberals.
Socialism is not a liberal ideology.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50617145]You're literally only trying to argue semantics though...
The nazis were not liberals.
Socialism is not a liberal ideology.[/QUOTE]
Economically they are liberal, socially they are authoritarian.
[QUOTE=space1;50617141]Can we stop getting held up on semantics?[/QUOTE]
These aren't semantics. These are literally two separate fields of political theory.
You're calling a cow a buffalo and getting angry that I'm "getting held up on semantics" when I say "no, dude, what the fuck, it's a cow."
[editline]29th June 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=space1;50617154]Economically they are liberal, socially they are authoritarian.[/QUOTE]
The political compass is dogshit. Look up "liberal authoritarianism" and you'll find nothing meaningful because they are essentially opposite terms.
Authoritarianism necessitates the suppression and limitation of liberty. Liberalism is based on liberty and equality. It's in the fucking name of the ideology. Can you have socialist authoritarianism? Absolutely - I gave you an example above with the Soviet Union. Is that "liberal authoritarianism?" Nope. Left-wing? Now you might have an argument. But not liberalism. "Liberal" and "left" aren't synonyms anywhere in the world except in the United States.
Trying to understand political theory through the political compass is like thinking you understand everything about astrophysics through a crayon drawing of a solar system. Stop citing it. Read a book.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;50617155]"Liberal" and "left" aren't synonyms anywhere in the world except in the United States[/QUOTE]
that's really all you need to understand here
I guess I really should stop associating "left" and "liberal". I apologise to all of you for being a filthy American.
[QUOTE=space1;50617154]Economically they are liberal, socially they are authoritarian.[/QUOTE]
No. No they're not.
[editline]29th June 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=space1;50617201]that's really all you need to understand here[/QUOTE]
That you're the centre of the world or that you(not all Americans) have redefined the terms into literally no fucking meaning
[QUOTE=space1;50617201]that's really all you need to understand here
I guess I really should stop associating "left" and "liberal". I apologise to all of you for being a filthy American.[/QUOTE]That's the bullshit media terms if you actually knew more than what the media spews you would know the actual terms.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50617206]No. No they're not.
[editline]29th June 2016[/editline]
That you're the centre of the world or that you(not all Americans) have redefined the terms into literally no fucking meaning[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry that I can't know that something that's been used one way for my entire life isn't the way it's used in other places.
[QUOTE=space1;50617201]that's really all you need to understand here
I guess I really should stop associating "left" and "liberal". I apologise to all of you for being a filthy American.[/QUOTE]
Trying to sound like a fucking victim for being too lazy to do basic research on general terms is really not helping you sound intelligent
so space1 when are you going to reply to my points
like how liberalism and socialism aren't the same thing
and if you actually read the books you linked me
[QUOTE=space1;50617227]I'm sorry that I can't know that something that's been used one way for my entire life isn't the way it's used in other places.[/QUOTE]
I live an hour above the US. Are you really going to play that card when you have both the Internet and an education?
[editline]29th June 2016[/editline]
If you're going to say we're all in an echo chamber but you're not, your repeated insistence that the terms are used like that in your nation sized echo chamber are a little hard to reconcile.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50617229]Trying to sound like a fucking victim for being too lazy to do basic research on general terms is really not helping you sound intelligent[/QUOTE]
I didn't know apologizing suddenly makes you into a victim?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50617236]I live an hour above the US. Are you really going to play that card when you have both the Internet and an education?
[editline]29th June 2016[/editline]
If you're going to say we're all in an echo chamber but you're not, your repeated insistence that the terms are used like that in your nation sized echo chamber are a little hard to reconcile.[/QUOTE]
It's a subtle word association I had never really thought about until I really thought about it. It doesn't seem like this usage of the word will die anytime soon in America, so I will continually have to use this word with other Americans.
How the fuck is accepting responsibility for something I did wrong somehow playing the victim card?
[QUOTE=space1;50617251]I didn't know apologizing suddenly makes you into a victim?[/QUOTE]You phrased the sentence like your knowledge was out of your control.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50617229]Trying to sound like a fucking victim for being too lazy to do basic research on general terms is really not helping you sound intelligent[/QUOTE]
It's not that, it's that it's used in a different way in our country than it is outside of it. If you lived here you would understand.
You're making it sound like I killed your dog or something, get over it.
Socialism is when you allow Government to control the means of production.
FYI it never works and we know this thanks to history. Just like Communism and it doesn't matter how much people romanticise it, they don't understand shit.
Capitalism may have its downsides, but it's the best thing we've got.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;50616949]What does the EU owe the UK?
The UK just said "fuck you we're leaving", with our most well-known MEP giving them a "NAAA NAAA" speech in the parliament.
What do they owe the UK other than utter contempt?[/QUOTE]
Contempt because they don't want to be apart of their system any more? That is pathetic and immature.
When the UK joined the EU they had the right to leave the EU and now that UK the EU gets all pissy for the UK doing what they have ever right to do?
All it shows to me is how pathetic and petty the EU is. It shows me that they are children who will try to fuck you over for not wanting to be in their boys club any more. Instead of working together to help both parties they are purposely hurting both for petty revenge.
I was on the fence about Brexit only a month ago but now I couldn't hate the EU more.
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