• Norway Conservatives win general election
    108 replies, posted
I don't like this.
Stopping immigration is stupid, but regulating it is probably a good idea if Norway is anything like Sweden. You can't just take in people by the thousands, the only thing that happens is that they don't have time to integrate with the local populace and laws, ends up with ghettos (which in turn lower propriety value and end up being the only place new immigrants can go live) and then you know the drill. People need time to get accustomed and they need time to get settled. Mind you this doesn't really apply for doctors, engineers and generally middle+ classes. That's coming from someone who isn't, nor was born in, Sweden. Secluded communities that cause discontent and tensions don't help anybody, nor does taking in people to then leaving them without jobs for 5 years because the line for one is 50 000 people long. I just wish there was a party in Sweden that had the ideal to regulate immigration a bit more but with actual plans on top of it for other things, not have immigration as their number 1, 2, and 3 priority (also not SD). [editline]10th September 2013[/editline] Welfare is also supposed to temporarily help those in need until they get a decent income. Letting people in and throwing them on welfare doesn't work. Somebody has to pay for all that and taxes here are high enough already.
[QUOTE=Sprockethead;42139927]I dont believe youre helping situation with creating a welfare class. Introducing people into your system to simply sit there, use state funds, and put very little back, with little opportunity to change their situation. Since there is little incentive to hire these people over people who talk the native language. So what im getting at is, we are paying people for simply being here, and they are not particularly good company. But then again, Youd have a good argument stating that its pretty fucked that alot of the nato countries are over there with our pointless military bases causing instability in the middle east, and then barring our doors for the stragglers trying to get out of the way of bombings. Overall its a shitty situation.[/QUOTE] But the answer is not to defund welfare or dismantle immigration programmes. Do you really think someone being poorer is a good incentive to get a job? What if the situation is not simply about whether or not they *want* to get a job? Unsurprisingly, not everyone on welfare is simply on it out of laziness.
[QUOTE=Megafan;42140039]But the answer is not to defund welfare or dismantle immigration programmes. Do you really think someone being poorer is a good incentive to get a job? What if the situation is not simply about whether or not they *want* to get a job? Unsurprisingly, not everyone on welfare is simply on it out of laziness.[/QUOTE] No one's dismantling immigration programmes, they're doing policies where immigration is going to be more regulated and immigrants found to be doing crimes will be sent back to their country. Not "you just got a speeding ticket, get out" but more serious crimes
[QUOTE=Xavith;42136973]except no one is pushing that policy. [B][U]You're foolish to believe criminals aren't exploiting Norway's current immigration policy. Heck even in my town certain immigrants are doing courses on how to exploit the welfare system. [/U][/B] Just to clarify, the majority of immigrants are legit wonderful people, but there are bad apples, and right now the current policy is too easy to exploit.[/QUOTE] The whole North is like this. I live right next to Denmarks second largest ghetto and these shitheads carry knives and attempt entry at all apartments each night. NO shame. If you're home, they just walk away and come back tomorrow. If you get rowdy, they pull a knife or a gun... because they figure "good luck reporting an immigrant named Mohammed up here."
Yea I'm not really that worried. The deal with conservatives in Norway is that they aren't trying to tear down the welfare state, only make it more open for private institutions to exist beside the state-owned. Only really bad thing that comes out of a conservative government in my eyes is that they're going to lower taxes for the rich. Also FRP might try to use all our money to build a million roads everywhere, but that's more of a joke now to be honest.
[QUOTE=deltasquid;42139565]Just a reminder: Europe has an entirely different concept of consevative than the USA Our Christian-democrat conservatives have been part of the coalition for longer than I can remember and they didn't even vote against gay marriage, just abstained while all other parties voted in favour Belgium just rolls like that I guess[/QUOTE] That's because the GOP is split between conservatives who call themselves moderates (which is honestly not too outrageous a claim) and reactionaries who call themselves conservatives (which is a [I]completely[/I] outrageous claim), and the reactionaries are quite powerful on a state and local level, though noticeably weaker on a federal level. That's one of the consequences of using FPTP.
[QUOTE=Megafan;42140039]But the answer is not to defund welfare or dismantle immigration programmes. Do you really think someone being poorer is a good incentive to get a job? What if the situation is not simply about whether or not they *want* to get a job? Unsurprisingly, not everyone on welfare is simply on it out of laziness.[/QUOTE] You're debating with teenage armchair racists who rarely even interact with actual immigrants. Do you expect them to know anything about being truly poor or working to make a living, or to hold intelligible opinions in immigration issues at all Because I don't
From what I've seen from facepunch, whenever there's an immigration thread, people not from that country are for immigration (at times, full on open borders) while people in that country say, "No! You don't understand!" And it rotates. If it's your country, 'fuck the immigrants!', if it's another country, 'you heartless bastards, have open borders!'
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42144541]From what I've seen from facepunch, whenever there's an immigration thread, people not from that country are for immigration (at times, full on open borders) while people in that country say, "No! You don't understand!" And it rotates. If it's your country, 'fuck the immigrants!', if it's another country, 'you heartless bastards, have open borders!'[/QUOTE] I'm British and I think Britain should have open borders.
It's strange how in America the conservatives aren't in favor of many of our founding principles such as the freedom of speech, of the press, of our right to a jury of our peers, unwarrented search, etc. If you think that we should have the rights guaranteed in the bill you should be conservative, but it doesn't seem to be that way anymore.
[QUOTE=Reshy;42145316]It's strange how in America the conservatives aren't in favor of many of our founding principles such as the freedom of speech, of the press, of our right to a jury of our peers, unwarrented search, etc. If you think that we should have the rights guaranteed in the bill you should be conservative, but it doesn't seem to be that way anymore.[/QUOTE] Conservative usually has nothing to do with the actual meaning of the word Apparently the parties that won now are "conservative" even though they're the ones wanting to make the most radical changes, and this is the first time i've heard that term used for the parties at all
The conservatives have now laid out their plans for the budget. Apparently they want to cut the welfare and healthcare budgets, which is rather worrying in my opinion.
[QUOTE=RandomGamer342;42145357]Conservative usually has nothing to do with the actual meaning of the word Apparently the parties that won now are "conservative" even though they're the ones wanting to make the most radical changes, and this is the first time i've heard that term used for the parties at all[/QUOTE] They're conservative in name only, kind of like the 'liberals' these days...
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42144541]From what I've seen from facepunch, whenever there's an immigration thread, people not from that country are for immigration (at times, full on open borders) while people in that country say, "No! You don't understand!" And it rotates. If it's your country, 'fuck the immigrants!', if it's another country, 'you heartless bastards, have open borders!'[/QUOTE] The thing is, as a knee-jerk reaction it's easier to remember those 3 asshole immigrants that are doing criminal acts and leeching off of society instead of the 100+- immigrants that are doing fine, and someone out of country isn't going to see either one of those parts. I'm actually glad that they got a significant part of the votes as i'd really love to see immigrants judged on a case by case basis instead of "All immigrants are fine there's no reason to leave anyone out :downs:" Immigrants that are part of society are fine, there's no reason to prevent someone from immigrating if they're going to do their part, try to get work etc like everyone else does However, if they begin stealing, selling drugs, vandalising, and generally acting like a living stereotype then they can fuck off to where they came from as we don't need them here at all The thing about the progress party is that they've had the reputation of being racists that want to get rid of immigrants completely, which just led to complete racists and the people seeing the whole picture and liking it voting for them, now that image seems to have changed a lot Getting rid of the bad apples of the bunch is a good idea, and i'm hoping it'll work out as it did on paper [sp]rainbows[/sp]
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42144541]From what I've seen from facepunch, whenever there's an immigration thread, people not from that country are for immigration (at times, full on open borders) while people in that country say, "No! You don't understand!" And it rotates. If it's your country, 'fuck the immigrants!', if it's another country, 'you heartless bastards, have open borders!'[/QUOTE] Do you have any proof of this theory or is it just unproven anecdotes?
[QUOTE=Hellsten;42137174]Why do you exaggerate so much? Nobody said immigrants destroy everything. Nobody's supporting a "policy of xenophobia". Nobody's talking about putting the immigration to an abrupt end. Nobody's talking about kicking out foreigners. Do you realize Sweden is one of the top countries that take in the most refugees and immigrants compared to its population? Do you realize what kind of impact that has? Sweden needs to go back to the healthy, working and balanced immigration we had prior to the gates to hell that were opened in 1975. Immigration before that worked flawlessly, and people really did get integrated into the society. Both Norway and Denmark are miles ahead of Sweden on this. Wow, you're not even close to understanding the problem. Besides, wage dumping is not ok. We already have a high unemployment in Sweden, why should immigrants that barely speak Swedish be a bigger priority than anyone else? In Sweden companies are actually funded by the state if they hire immigrants instead of Swedes. Immigrants also get a lot of different welfare funds. Discrimination is not ok. Building a society on inequalities is not a good idea. But extra support for integration is good, learning the language is the first step of many. I've said it so many times and I'll say it again. It's not [I]the immigrants[/I] we are blaming, it's [I]how the immigration to our countries[/I] is being handled that is the problem here. A lot of people seem to overlook that when they read "anti-immigration party", thinking it's some backwards white-supremacist group of people you'd find in the USA.[/QUOTE] WHy is it that when people say these exact same things about America we are labeled racists?
I'm okay with this. It's not like the U.S. conservative party which consists of racist bigots. There legitimately are problems they are having with immigrants right now.
[QUOTE=frozensoda;42146158]WHy is it that when people say these exact same things about America we are labeled racists?[/QUOTE] Because stupid political correctness. It's the same for the UK too. Can't say one negative thing about immigration or immigrants themselves without being called a racist nationalist pig or something.
The thing people don't get is that nordic conservatives is like ultra left by american standards. The conservative party here when it was in government with other right wing parties didn't even lower taxes and we have like a 50-60% tax rate depending on income for most people. Well i pay about 25% in taxes but thats because i'm a poor student with main income at about $900 from the state in student support and like $500 from work. The most right wing party we have here is Liberal Alliance who pushes for a 40% flat tax rate and they are considered ultra right wing by many lol.
[QUOTE=demoguy08;42143809]You're debating with teenage armchair racists who rarely even interact with actual immigrants. Do you expect them to know anything about being truly poor or working to make a living, or to hold intelligible opinions in immigration issues at all Because I don't[/QUOTE] Yeah I guess we're all racist No one is against immigration, what I'm against, is letting in criminals whom immediately start selling drugs/rape/or are part of a human trafficking network, which there's a lot of in Oslo. Just recently they had to let these kinds of criminals go simply because they don't have enough capacity in prison. But I guess we're just racist, and there's no high criminal activity from immigrants getting in through loopholes or fake IDs
Just means more immigrants for the rest of europe
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42144541]From what I've seen from facepunch, whenever there's an immigration thread, people not from that country are for immigration (at times, full on open borders) while people in that country say, "No! You don't understand!" And it rotates. If it's your country, 'fuck the immigrants!', if it's another country, 'you heartless bastards, have open borders!'[/QUOTE] It's not wether to have open borders. It's wether to lump them all into a ghetto with zero chance of integration or wether to spread them out so they're faced with the local culture and can't run or hide from it. Ghettos are breeding grounds for giant social issues. Mostly mini-culture pockets. There are people in these ghettos that spend 20 years in a country without learning their language or respecting the laws. Also, i should clarify: A ghetto up here isn't any different from its surroundings apart from the fact that most people who live there are relying on the rest of us to feed and clothe them, while their youth gets huge personal issues as a consequence of dual-identities, so to speak. Citizen of Iran at home, Citizen of Denmark everywhere else. With all that it entails. It's not easy and it's entirely preventable, yet no one had the foresight to do so back when immigration started going haywire 20 years ago. I know hindsight is always 20/20, but holy shit, it's so obvious that you don't take that many people, tell them to get Danish and then lump them in a group where they can resist it in anger and anxiety. So yeah. Fuck closing the borders. Get on an acceptable level with the help and stop giving money to people for 20 years of doing shit-all. Wasn't there a british Imam that claimed that it was their right as muslims to sit on their asses on government support? That's another consequence of putting them all in one place. [editline]10th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=demoguy08;42143809]You're debating with teenage armchair racists who rarely even interact with actual immigrants. Do you expect them to know anything about being truly poor or working to make a living, or to hold intelligible opinions in immigration issues at all Because I don't[/QUOTE] It's ironic, because you present no valid counterpoints to their ignorant posts yourself.
[QUOTE=frozensoda;42146158]WHy is it that when people say these exact same things about America we are labeled racists?[/QUOTE] actually the parties in norway that want to address immigration as an issue get called racist on a daily basis in norwegian media. people actually campaigned to prevent a rapist who immigrated from Samoa from being deported.
[QUOTE=RandomGamer342;42145568]i'd really love to see immigrants judged on a case by case basis instead of "All immigrants are fine there's no reason to leave anyone out :downs:"[/QUOTE] Too bad how politics dumb things down to either "All immigrants are okay, you racist" or "All immigrants are lazy welfare-leechers". It's dull and stupid. Not to mention, I don't like how we are all being lumped together into one giant catch-all group called "immigrants". Fuck. We all have our own cliques and cultures, and we all have our own views and preference towards the natives and other immigrant groups.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42144541]From what I've seen from facepunch, whenever there's an immigration thread, people not from that country are for immigration (at times, full on open borders) while people in that country say, "No! You don't understand!" And it rotates. If it's your country, 'fuck the immigrants!', if it's another country, 'you heartless bastards, have open borders!'[/QUOTE] I must be the only one who likes immigrants in my country :[
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;42149153]I must be the only one who likes immigrants in my country :[[/QUOTE] Don't worry dude I'm there with you
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42144541]From what I've seen from facepunch, whenever there's an immigration thread, people not from that country are for immigration (at times, full on open borders) while people in that country say, "No! You don't understand!" And it rotates. If it's your country, 'fuck the immigrants!', if it's another country, 'you heartless bastards, have open borders!'[/QUOTE] One thing that really disheartened me in the recent Australian federal election was that both the Coalition and Labor had absolutely disgusting immigration policy. For the House of Reps I put the Greens high up in my preferences because they have immigration policy that is actually ethical. I have no problem with immigrants; I have friends that are immigrants (I know how cliché that sounds haha, reminds me of a US politician who claimed to not be racist because he had black friends), but I've also worked with immigrants in a factory and they are dependable and hard working. However, something that I have noticed is that quite a lot of Scandinavian members here on Facepunch are indeed anti-immigration. We had quite a few Australians like that in the Australian federal election threads but they were mostly newer members, yet those Scandinavian members are all old members here and there are definitely quite a few of them (or at least they are pretty vocal about it).
This is rich. If anyone were to say "It's a good thing that the Republicans won a majority because now they can work on tougher immigration laws. I mean, it's common knowledge that tons of Mexicans come in an start selling drugs and committing crime right away! Hell, they're always leeching off the welfare system." they would be universally criticized on this forum and possible even banned. But it's fine because you need to live in your perfect white Scandinavian wonderlands so racism is O.K.
I voted for Jens Stoltenberg, but I wish Erna Solberg good luck. It'll be interesting with a new prime-minister.
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