• Volkswagen cheated EPA requirements, massive recall underway, VW stock plummeting
    110 replies, posted
christ thats irresponsible i hope germany takes action against them too. this is exactly why cars shouldn't be closed off DRM locked devices, someone would have caught this earlier if they had looked at the management software [editline]18th September 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=slayer3032;48714654]Yep, thank California Air Research Board(CARB) and the EPA along with the reignited usual scapegoat crusade against overall passenger vehicle emissions which with our modern OBD2(96+) vehicles contribute like thousands of times less overall emissions in comparison to commercial/industrial pollutants. It's basically a joke at this point, our stringent emissions standards only hurt the consumer. CAFE standards over the next 10 years are set to go sky high and it's going to be hilarious to see the terrible things done by car makers just to meet regulations.[/QUOTE] the only reason why industrial vehicles are exempt from epa requirements is because of massive lobbying efforts from their manufacturers, theres a reason why the republicans are being funded partly to gut vehicle emission standards this election cycle, because obama implimented epa laws that finally affect industrial vehicles [editline]18th September 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=slayer3032;48714566] In the case that it's news to you, every non-american car maker has a diesel option available on literally almost every single car you could imagine. Everything from Civics and Accords, to 3 series BMW's, Nissan Altimas, Ford Focuses/Tauruses(Mondeo) and even more so in basically every single SUV or small truck. In some places of the world diesel cars are more popular and desirable even, yet we have basically just the TDI. [/QUOTE] GM makes a perfectly good AND emissions certified diesel engine in for the cruze, americans just don't use diesels because the fuel has been reliably 2x as expensive as gas, and historically lousy with performance here, diesel trucks from the major manufacturers here are very popular and they have to meet restrictions on emissions too
Well.. the good news is this has NO effect on the consumer! If you don't care about the environment just let the smog fly and keep driving your TDI that gets 45mpg freeway. No harm no foul.
[QUOTE=clutch2;48715177]Well.. the good news is this has NO effect on the consumer! If you don't care about the environment just let the smog fly and keep driving your TDI that gets 45mpg freeway. No harm no foul.[/QUOTE] I for one, plan on it. 50 mpg freeway in '09 jetta TDI. US has weird obsession with being really really strict on emissions even though it means in general the fuel economy is adversely affected. These cars use almost the exact same engine as the European market cars do, just the European market isn't scared shitless of passenger diesel. Hell, before I drove this I was in a much older mercedes diesel which undoubtedly had *many* times higher pollution output.
If they put as much effort into lowering emissions as they did into cheating the emissions test they mightn't be in this mess.
[QUOTE=viper shtf;48714671]Fuck the EPA. I wish more manufacturers would do this and import diesels. American emissions laws are stupidly restrictive. (I'm a mechanic. )[/QUOTE] Yeah cause fuck the environment and let's make sure all the cities are full of smog. Diesel cars are fine but emission laws exist for a reason and car manufacturers shouldn't be trying to cheat them. They should spend that time and effort trying to find a way a way to keep their performance and lower emissions.
[QUOTE=Chickens!;48715406]If they put as much effort into lowering emissions as they did into cheating the emissions test they mightn't be in this mess.[/QUOTE] It probably doesn't help that people want cars that, simultaneously, make a million horsepower, can go from 0 to 60 in 3 seconds and have fuel economy of a thousand miles per gallon.
[QUOTE=Antdawg;48715428]It probably doesn't help that people want cars that, simultaneously, make a million horsepower, can go from 0 to 60 in 3 seconds and have fuel economy of a thousand miles per gallon.[/QUOTE] There are pretty much three things you can consider in engine design: high power, high efficiency, and low emissions. Pick 2.
[QUOTE=slayer3032;48714279] This really isn't a big deal, our EPA regulations on diesels are stupid restrictive and are the sole reason that we don't have diesel passenger cars like the rest of the world.[/QUOTE] There's more to it, actually. It was tried by GM in the 80s, using a diesel drawn out of the old 350cid gas V8. Decent engine, but it had teething issues. IIRC: * The first few had issues with the injector pumps fouling and the cylinder heads not being up to snuff. These were both fixed in a few years and later models were perfectly reliable. * They were naturally aspirated, thus they had very little power. Gobs and gobs and gobs of torque, but no horsepower. * They were noisy. Very noisy. Even in the 80s people wanted reasonably quiet cars. A gas 350 was quiet enough to pass muster, but a diesel 350 was a clattery mess. The clatter sounded fairly similar to dying engine clatter, buyers didn't like it much. * They were sooty. Another aspect of being N/A is that they produced a LOT of black soot. Mild turbocharging, in the 5-6PSI of boost area, will clean up 90% of the soot a diesel engine produces during part throttle driving. GM never fitted this engine with a low-boost turbo, so they almost always made a stink. Literally. * Diesel is still more expensive than gasoline in the US, and for the longest time the cost was so great that it offset the lower amount of fuel you actually burned. Most people would find that operating a diesel car and a gas car cost about the same because of this discrepancy and went with the gasser instead. * Diesel has long had an association with industrial and heavy duty applications in the US, never in personal transport. I, personally, am not against a diesel powered car in my life. I wouldn't object one bit to, funnily enough, one of those Caprice diesels if it had the later model 350cid diesel that had the mechanical teething issues sorted and a low-boost turbo fitted. Stickshift behind it, yum. get my big-ass US sedan and 30MPG as well! But it's not hard to see why these sorts of things have soured diesel in most Americans' minds.
[QUOTE=Morgen;48715412]Yeah cause fuck the environment and let's make sure all the cities are full of smog. Diesel cars are fine but emission laws exist for a reason and car manufacturers shouldn't be trying to cheat them. They should spend that time and effort trying to find a way a way to keep their performance and lower emissions.[/QUOTE] Everything is a trade-off. I doubt Volkswagen's diesels (which the E.U. thinks are clean enough) are 1/100th as dirty as a cargo ship, or even a vastly less regulated industrial diesel engine.
[QUOTE=Morgen;48715412]Yeah cause fuck the environment and let's make sure all the cities are full of smog. Diesel cars are fine but emission laws exist for a reason and car manufacturers shouldn't be trying to cheat them. They should spend that time and effort trying to find a way a way to keep their performance and lower emissions.[/QUOTE] What's sad is they did, the emissions systems worked, and they couldn't have drasticly altered the vehicles performance since diagnostic equipment from on-road testing would have showed a huge difference [editline]18th September 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=viper shtf;48715458]Everything is a trade-off. I doubt Volkswagen's diesels (which the E.U. thinks are clean enough) are 1/100th as dirty as a cargo ship, or even a vastly less regulated industrial diesel engine.[/QUOTE] Cargo ships are not dirty at all, they use diesel so damn efficiently and work at much lower rpm so they can get much better more complete combustion, I mean it's apples to oranges when one engine block is expected to go 0-60 and the other is the size of a house Emissions all comes down to the fuel, cargo ships burn practically asphalt, European fuel standards are much higher than US standards which is why their cars get so much better mpg, but petrol costs a fortune there compared to US blends
[QUOTE=Antdawg;48715428]It probably doesn't help that people want cars that, simultaneously, make a million horsepower, can go from 0 to 60 in 3 seconds and have fuel economy of a thousand miles per gallon.[/QUOTE] Electric cars answer to that. Amazing performance and the costs of running it off electricity are many many times cheaper than that of any ICE car. I don't know about the US prices but in the UK I can get electricity for 6.5p /KwH at night, a Tesla Model S 85D will get about 270 Wh/Mile if you are driving normally. Diesel is an average of 397.08p a gallon, at 65 MPG that's 6.1p per mile compared to the Model S's 1.76p per mile.
[QUOTE=Sableye;48715464]What's sad is they did, the emissions systems worked, and they couldn't have drasticly altered the vehicles performance since diagnostic equipment from on-road testing would have showed a huge difference [editline]18th September 2015[/editline] Cargo ships are not dirty at all, they use diesel so damn efficiently and work at much lower rpm so they can get much better more complete combustion, I mean it's apples to oranges when one engine block is expected to go 0-60 and the other is the size of a house Emissions all comes down to the fuel, cargo ships burn practically asphalt, European fuel standards are much higher than US standards which is why their cars get so much better mpg, but petrol costs a fortune there compared to US blends[/QUOTE] Low speed marine diesels only approach 50-55% efficiency. We're also talking particulates (i.e. soot) here, not efficiency. Soot is formed by the reaction between CO and CO2 in the Boudouard reaction. Also, bunker fuel is full of sulfur and is a significant contributor to acid rain.
[QUOTE=download;48715526]Low speed marine diesels only approach 50-55% efficiency. We're also talking particulates (i.e. soot) here, not efficiency.[/QUOTE] It's the fuel though, its dirt cheap, but also almost non-combustable, the engines themselves have high compression
Well shit, I just bought a 2015 Golf TDI back in April. I wonder how bad of a hit my gas mileage is going to take. I still love the car, though. Shame they had to pull some shady stuff like this and get caught. I have to imagine they aren't the only manufacturer doing stuff like this.
[QUOTE=I_Forgot;48715560]Well shit, I just bought a 2015 Golf TDI back in April. I wonder how bad of a hit my gas mileage is going to take. I still love the car, though. Shame they had to pull some shady stuff like this and get caught. I have to imagine they aren't the only manufacturer doing stuff like this.[/QUOTE] Don't take it in for the recall. Boom, problem solved.
[QUOTE=viper shtf;48715728]Don't take it in for the recall. Boom, problem solved.[/QUOTE] Unfortunately that would void the manufacturer's warranty.
[QUOTE=viper shtf;48715728]Don't take it in for the recall. Boom, problem solved.[/QUOTE] Do we even have any reputable sources that the fix will reduce the MPG or is it all just wild speculation?
[QUOTE=Morgen;48715491]Electric cars answer to that. Amazing performance and the costs of running it off electricity are many many times cheaper than that of any ICE car. I don't know about the US prices but in the UK I can get electricity for 6.5p /KwH at night, a Tesla Model S 85D will get about 270 Wh/Mile if you are driving normally. Diesel is an average of 397.08p a gallon, at 65 MPG that's 6.1p per mile compared to the Model S's 1.76p per mile.[/QUOTE] And, funnily enough, for many people pollutes more than one of the cheaty VWs. A large chunk of the US still gets power from coal, especially in the Deep South where the coal mines themselves are and where the coal lobby is most powerful. TVA has to fight tooth and nail to shut down even the smallest of coal plants. You live where you get your power from coal? On an emissions standpoint you're better off in a muscle car. [QUOTE=Singo;48715826]Unfortunately that would void the manufacturer's warranty.[/QUOTE] Fuck warranties. [editline]18th September 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=I_Forgot;48715560]I have to imagine they aren't the only manufacturer doing stuff like this.[/QUOTE] They probably are because they're the only one that's majorly pushing diesel cars in the US. Only one getting any sales. Hell they're the only one even offering them in most markets. I find it a miracle that there's 500,000 cars on US roads to recall for this in the first place, given how harsh the US market is on diesel cars and how laughably cheap gasoline is(1.88/gal for me right now). Their main advantage is meaningless in a country where gas is that cheap, yet still VW has managed to sell half a million TDIs.
[QUOTE=Morgen;48715831]Do we even have any reputable sources that the fix will reduce the MPG or is it all just wild speculation?[/QUOTE] It's educated, fact based speculation. I don't see how vw could fix this without lowering performance and mpg's.
Once Hitler's brand, always Hitler's brand. Not wanting a GTI anymore, a shame really, it looked promising.
[QUOTE=0x0000000C;48715926]Once Hitler's brand, always Hitler's brand. Not wanting a GTI anymore, a shame really, it looked promising.[/QUOTE] It's not going to bother you in Panama unless the US invades again.
To be fair this is what happens when the EPA sets overzealous regulations that are impossible to meet. Automakers have until like 2025 IIRC to make are all new vehicles get 40+ MPG. Automakers are [i]never[/i] going to be able to get pickup trucks up to EPA emissions standards before the deadline. Several pickup truck manufactures are trying to make them lighter by using aluminum bodies, which are something crazy like 10 times more expensive to repair than traditional steel bodies. Consumers get burned in the end.
That's government for you, fucking things up.
[QUOTE=TestECull;48715873]And, funnily enough, for many people pollutes more than one of the cheaty VWs. A large chunk of the US still gets power from coal, especially in the Deep South where the coal mines themselves are and where the coal lobby is most powerful. TVA has to fight tooth and nail to shut down even the smallest of coal plants.[/QUOTE] Well yes and no. If you get all your power from old shitty coal plants it doesn't really make much difference using an EV on a global scale, however it does shift the pollution from cars to power plants. Car emissions are the highest in cities, coal power plants generally aren't in cities like that anymore (there's probably still a few around though). So even in the worst case scenario you are shifting the pollution away from the most dense population areas to much lower density areas, which will have health benefits for the majority.
[QUOTE=Morgen;48715412]Yeah cause fuck the environment and let's make sure all the cities are full of smog. Diesel cars are fine but emission laws exist for a reason and car manufacturers shouldn't be trying to cheat them. They should spend that time and effort trying to find a way a way to keep their performance and lower emissions.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Chickens!;48715406]If they put as much effort into lowering emissions as they did into cheating the emissions test they mightn't be in this mess.[/QUOTE] You're speaking from the UK and Italy which doesn't have the same restrictions on Diesel as the USA does. I don't think you realize the scale of ridiculousness we're talking here.
[QUOTE=download;48716040]It's not going to bother you in Panama unless the US invades again.[/QUOTE] Yeah, you are right. Still not liking VW products.
[QUOTE=Sableye;48715464]European fuel standards are much higher than US standards which is why their cars get so much better mpg, but petrol costs a fortune there compared to US blends[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure Euro and US fuel is mostly the same. We just have different octane rating systems.
[QUOTE=Morgen;48715831]Do we even have any reputable sources that the fix will reduce the MPG or is it all just wild speculation?[/QUOTE] It WILL reduce MPG, and that's a fact. People with F-250 Powerstrokes are removing their emissions systems and GAINING 5-10 mpg. It's no secret that the EPA's regulations is one of the big reasons our diesel engines here aren't getting great gas mileage. We've reached a point a few years ago where regulations started hurting fuel efficiency, but nobody batted an eyelash.
[QUOTE=Demache;48716333]I'm pretty sure Euro and US fuel is mostly the same. We just have different octane rating systems.[/QUOTE] US is weird with the octane ratings, we get (RON + MON)/2 That gives us AKI Euroland goes by just RON
[QUOTE=Morgen;48715831]Do we even have any reputable sources that the fix will reduce the MPG or is it all just wild speculation?[/QUOTE] Baseless speculation, if it was a drastic change people would have noticed it by now [editline]19th September 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Demache;48716333]I'm pretty sure Euro and US fuel is mostly the same. We just have different octane rating systems.[/QUOTE] No, the US uses at least 15% ethanol and a lot of the brands like speedway, Sam's, Murphy ect, are gas wholesalers who use blended fuels instead of the name brand vendors who use their own individual blend, its a lot cheaper from wholesalers but the gas mileage is noticeably lower
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