Michigan Legislature raises minimum wage to $9.25 by 2018; future increases tied to inflation - Polidicks

And our minimum wage in ontario went up to 11CAD just 6 minutes ago, and currently that is 10.14USD

[QUOTE=CrumbleShake;44964093]Think about it though. If you make it the same minimum wage for everyone, those who are in work where they rely on tips would definitely get less tips since the customers wouldn't feel like they've got to tip. But they'd still get some tips so they'd still be earning above minimum wage. The only difference would be that they've got security that they're never ever going to get less than minimum wage and the many many people who weren't getting anywhere near enough to live on because they're not getting enough tips, don't have to worry.[/QUOTE] It's almost like you didn't read anything that I wrote. Think about it like this: The two states that were in the quote have about the same average wage for their waiters, but the minimum hourly wage has a difference of $6.56/hour. Since the after tip hourly wage is essentially equal between the two it follows that the wait staff in Massachusetts, where the hourly minimum is $2.63, make quite a bit more tips. It's obvious that better service gets higher tips, on average. This means that, since more of the total wage is in tips, a bigger difference will exist between a great server and a terrible server. On the other side, a larger minimum means that less of the total wage is found in tips. This gives less wiggle room for great servers to make more than terrible servers. If the total doesn't change, and a larger spread exists in the former, then it follows that great servers will make less money overall and terrible servers will make more money overall in order to get the average down. [editline]31st May 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=FreakyMe;44963154]All in all, nobody should be being paid less than they can live on, wouldn't you agree? Also, there is no guarantee that upping the hourly wage would be detrimental in any way.[/QUOTE] Nope, but the claim is that it should be changed. That means the burden of proof lies on showing that it would be helpful.

[QUOTE=CrumbleShake;44964093]Think about it though. Everyone's got to eat. Even people who are shit at their jobs need to put food on the table somehow.[/QUOTE] Yes, I get it. Don't go into a service industry where you know the terms and conditions before you sign on. A marine biologist does not get hired to do mathematics. Lawyers do not get hired to do plumbing. You don't try to fit the square peg in the round hole. If you're not good at waiting people, don't take the job. You're bound to get fired eventually anyway. If this were literally any other job profession I'd agree with you, but it isn't.

[QUOTE=deltasquid;44960275]Jesus, America. Your entire tipping system is just economic slavery.[/QUOTE] If the waiter fails to make what would equally be hours x min wage. In the long run they can't make any less than min wage

[QUOTE=FreakyMe;44961763]Tips are never required - as far as I know - except in very 'high end' restaurants or if a really large group comes in. The customer either tips because they want to, or because they feel pressured to by the employee's low wages. I don't think paying servers a proper minimum wage would result in them being tipped so much less that they would end up making less than they would working ~$2 an hour with tips.[/QUOTE] Well not literally required, but it's socially unacceptable to not do it. If they were given a minimum age salary, there would be a lot less tipping (and tipping less money) because it would no longer be viewed as necessary.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;44972633]Well not literally required, but it's socially unacceptable to not do it. If they were given a minimum age salary, there would be a lot less tipping (and tipping less money) because it would no longer be viewed as necessary.[/QUOTE] In California most waiters I know of are paid minimum wage or above and tipping is still very much a thing. Tipping isn't mandatory, but is generally viewed as a way of providing feedback for the service: Leaving no money indicates you received poor service, a few bucks is a 'donation', and tips for good or extraordinary service can range from 12% to 25% of the bill, depending on the customer. It's a fallacy to say that tipping would cease if waiters were paid minimum wage, because it is generally viewed more as adherence to a social norm than a political or economic statement.

[QUOTE=FreakyMe;44975042]It's a fallacy to say that tipping would cease if waiters were paid minimum wage, because it is generally viewed more as adherence to a social norm than a political or economic statement.[/QUOTE] Phew, good thing no one has made that argument.

[QUOTE=Explosions;44960894]Every time a foreigner says this they demonstrate how they don't actually understand tipping.[/QUOTE] I love how you use the term foreigner in a way to make the US the centre of the world. [editline]2nd June 2014[/editline] Tipping isn't even a social norm in most countries. Why is it that America, as a developed nation, have so many problems (gun violence, high military budget, wages ect.) and fail to see that all their practises are so backwards to the rest of the world.

[QUOTE=Badballer;44975551]I love how you use the term foreigner in a way to make the US the centre of the world. [editline]2nd June 2014[/editline] Tipping isn't even a social norm in most countries. Why is it that America, as a developed nation, have so many problems (gun violence, high military budget, wages ect.) and fail to see that all their practises are so backwards to the rest of the world.[/QUOTE] or maybe he used foreigners because the discussion itself is US-centered...? also yeah a tipping wage that must be legally compensated if the server makes under minimum wage is totally analogous to gun violence and our military spending

[QUOTE=Badballer;44975551]Tipping isn't even a social norm in most countries. Why is it that America, as a developed nation, have so many problems (gun violence, high military budget, wages ect.) and fail to see that all their practises are so backwards to the rest of the world.[/QUOTE] Because we've seen the alternative. There's a reason that every time someone brings up adopting socialism, the argument against it is merely "just look at europe".

[QUOTE=deltasquid;44960275]Jesus, America. Your entire tipping system is just economic slavery.[/QUOTE] the thing is people know this, and it makes people pity them and tip them more, which means the businesses don't need to pay them more because they know the customers sympathize with the waiting staff (is their mindset)

[QUOTE=Kondor;44982498]the thing is people know this, and it makes people pity them and tip them more, which means the businesses don't need to pay them more because they know the customers sympathize with the waiting staff (is their mindset)[/QUOTE] BS, I've literally never heard anyone say that they tipped a server more because they felt that they were "economic slaves."

[QUOTE=sgman91;44982670]BS, I've literally never heard anyone say that they tipped a server more because they felt that they were "economic slaves."[/QUOTE] never watched reservoir dogs?

[QUOTE=Kondor;44982706]never watched reservoir dogs?[/QUOTE] I don't think that a piece of fiction is relevant.

i don't see why not?

[QUOTE=Kondor;44982744]i don't see why not?[/QUOTE] Take a minute to realise that you're trying to justify your point of view on a real issue by referencing a piece of [i]fiction[/i]. Do you understand what 'fiction' means? God forbid you ever have to write an assignment and use references.

tarantino movies are filled with philosophical thoughts and social challenges are you saying he wrote those in cause he thought it would thrill his audience? [editline]3rd June 2014[/editline] you also realize pretty much every piece of fiction that exists is trying to push some sort of idea behind it?

[QUOTE=Kondor;44982816]tarantino movies are filled with philosophical thoughts and social challenges are you saying he wrote those in cause he thought it would thrill his audience?[/QUOTE] I think you're still forgetting the point that it is fiction. I don't think you understand what fiction means. I could create a story and some characters and have them ramble about any topic I could think of. That is fiction. That is Reservoir Dogs. If you referenced a piece of fiction for a university assignment similar to the topic and circumstances of this thread, they'd probably consider throwing you out.

cool! but your analogy is fiction so sorry dude but you must be talking out your butt

I'll take the fact that a movie is your only back up as cursory evidence that you're wrong.

you really don't think there is a reason americans pay more tips to waiting staff than any other country other than they must be super generous and everyone else is just being tight?

[QUOTE=Antdawg;44982863]I think you're still forgetting the point that it is fiction. I don't think you understand what fiction means. I could create a story and some characters and have them ramble about any topic I could think of. That is fiction. That is Reservoir Dogs. If you referenced a piece of fiction for a university assignment similar to the topic and circumstances of this thread, they'd probably consider throwing you out.[/QUOTE] new world order strategy; put anything you don't want the public to think about into a piece of fiction because no one is capable of analyzing those things [editline]2nd June 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Kondor;44983021]you really don't think there is a reason americans pay more tips to waiting staff than any other country other than they must be super generous and everyone else is just being tight?[/QUOTE] servers around here don't have to make minimum wage at places like waffle house so they get paid 2.50 plus tips

[QUOTE=Kondor;44983021]you really don't think there is a reason americans pay more tips to waiting staff than any other country other than they must be super generous and everyone else is just being tight?[/QUOTE] There's such a thing as culture and societal expectations. People will be looked at as cheap and rude if they don't. Generally, people also feel that servers deserve the tip for their effort, ergo better tips for better service.

[QUOTE=sgman91;44983086]There's such a thing as culture and societal expectations. People will be looked at as cheap and rude if they don't. Generally, people also feel that servers deserve the tip for their effort, ergo better tips for better service.[/QUOTE] that's what i'm trying to get at are you saying america have higher expectations than everyone else

[QUOTE=sgman91;44983086]There's such a thing as culture and societal expectations. People will be looked at as cheap and rude if they don't. Generally, people also feel that servers deserve the tip for their effort, ergo better tips for better service.[/QUOTE] like i said, in america waiters don't have to make minimum wage, so there's more to it than just being polite

[QUOTE=Kondor;44983101]that's what i'm trying to get at are you saying america have higher expectations than everyone else[/QUOTE] For tipping, of course they do. People don't get looked at as cheap and rude if they don't tip a waiter in France, but they will get looked at as cheap and rude in the US, therefore there are higher societal expectations for tipping in the US. I honestly have no idea where you're trying to go with this.

[QUOTE=sgman91;44983111]For tipping, of course they do. People don't get looked at as cheap and rude if they don't tip a waiter in France, but they will get looked at as cheap and rude in the US, therefore there are higher societal expectations for tipping in the US. I honestly have no idea where you're trying to go with this.[/QUOTE] you are literally delusional

[QUOTE=Kondor;44983126]you are literally delusional[/QUOTE] Please tell me I'm not the only person with no idea what this guy is trying to say.

[QUOTE=sgman91;44983178]Please tell me I'm not the only person with no idea what this guy is trying to say.[/QUOTE] I don't even particularly agree with you, and I have no idea what he's on about. You're in the clear here.

[QUOTE=sgman91;44982670]BS, I've literally never heard anyone say that they tipped a server more because they felt that they were "economic slaves."[/QUOTE] bartenders make a killing in tips, despite being a mostly skilless job. [editline]2nd June 2014[/editline] i know a lot of people that will tip more than 1 dollar a beer. if a bartender can pour a beer in under 30 seconds, then you're making 120 dollars just in tips in a single hour.