Valve Being Sued for Running Illegal Gambling via CSGO Crates - Polidicks

[QUOTE=hoodoo456;50589397]Gambling items worth real life money isn't illegal, apparently[/QUOTE] to be fair, valve has made the effort to make it so people specifically cannot sell their items on steam for real life money. the only way you can is through some third-party service, and I'm pretty sure that goes against valve's terms

Another thing to look at is the fact that criminal organizations are also coming on board and are openly using gambling websites as fronts for their operations. As virtual currency =/= real currency in the eyes of the IRS 98% of the time. In order to actually put this in an example: I once did a thought experiment with some friends on Garry's Mod, about how we could make a gunrunning group working under-the-guise of a company making replicas of CSGO items(actual guns, or items which could be disassembled and reassembled into actual firearms), and run secondary site where we funneled money through a system of gambling of CSGO/TF2 items and such. We projected that if we were to link our traffic with other popular gambling sites, we could sell each firearm at about $500, put it through the system via Bitcoin/other VC, and could come back with $500 in undetectable money. The system Valve has made would effectively make my friends and I undetectable in the eyes of the law, as they would be incapable of physical evidence. This is why this shit is scary, and what's worse is this type of system is now starting to be put into EVERY GAME across the industry. I have seen DarkRP servers with this type of system being used to funnel money for someone's drug money. It's not some mystical/impossible thing to do.

this is huge and will set a massive precedent for gacha style items (at least ones that operate within an environment that facilitates inter-player trades) in the near future. i hope valve wins because gacha-style items are some of the only microtransactions i can stomach.

The thing is its not like valve or any other company forces you to partake in these things. It's entirely up to the user to partake in these things. If you are a sap and find yourself caught up in this shit and valves making a profit its your own damn fault. It's not like Gabe is holding a gun to your head telliung you to do this shit. This is honestly coming from people who don't want to claim personal responsibility.

i don't see how it's valve fault for these websites using their web api for shit like this

[QUOTE=Octopod;50589471]to be fair, valve has made the effort to make it so people specifically cannot sell their items on steam for real life money. the only way you can is through some third-party service, and I'm pretty sure that goes against valve's terms[/QUOTE] [quote]Do not trade for anything that cannot be added into the trade window within Steam. The most common examples of these scenarios are the following: Trading items/gifts for money outside of the Steam Community market. You cannot add Wallet credit, PayPal, gift cards or any form of money into the trade window. Trading items/gifts for CD Keys. You cannot add a CD Key into the trade window. CD Keys that are offered can be for a different game, fake, used or region restricted. Trading items/gifts for nothing in return in the first trade and expecting to get an item or gift in a later trade. There is no reason to not trade everything in one trade. You may add unlimited items/gifts to a single trade. A common example of this is using a middleman to facilitate a one sided trade.[/quote] [url]https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=6748-ETSG-5417#tradestoavoid[/url] [editline]24th June 2016[/editline] [quote]THIRD PARTY CONTENT In regard to all Subscriptions, Contents and Services that are not authored by Valve, Valve does not screen such third party content available on Steam or through other sources. Valve assumes no responsibility or liability for such third party content. Some third party application software is capable of being used by businesses for business purposes - however, you may only acquire such software via Steam for private personal use.[/quote] [url]http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/[/url]

[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;50589250]Someone should go after the crares themselves.[/QUOTE] Definitely. That's a lawsuit six years in the making now, especially considering how many other games adopted it and made it even more dubious.

I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't already tried or failed. Usually companies work hard with lawyers before enacting these sorts of practices. Valve is big enough to do this. They've likely already found why it's allowed. Possibly the only way to stop crates is to define gambling further by making new laws

This is like suing a casino for betting and losing all your money to it. Here's an idea: if you don't like the possibility that you'll lose your money, don't gamble on it. How stupid do people have to be to realise this?

[QUOTE=Rocâ„¢;50589605]This is like suing a casino for betting and losing all your money to it. Here's an idea: if you don't like the possibility that you'll lose your money, don't gamble on it. How stupid do people have to be to realise this?[/QUOTE] Gambling is illegal for minors... those websites give minors the opportunity to gamble often without even having a 18+ warning for new users. The issue isn't inherent gambling, it's advocating illegal gambling. It's like suing the casino for letting your 12 year old son gamble.

[QUOTE=Punchy;50589638]Gambling is illegal for minors...[/QUOTE] So is viewing and purchasing porn

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;50589407]Honestly, anyone who states this isn't gambling would be lieing to themselves. Virtual items with no material value, are opened with other virtual items that cost RL currency, in order to do a slot machine type deal which gives someone another virtual item, which has it's worth primarily based around RNG with values placed into it to influence the price of certain items. Now you add the fact that Valve makes 5% to 25% cuts in profits of certain items, as well as marketplace cut, and you are seriously looking at one of the largest "Non-Casino" type gambling systems possible, and Valve is able to get around it, primarily because their only [I]influence[/I] on the system is selling items on a shop and taking percent cuts from business ventures created by players. Another massive problem is that with the recent introduction of BC exchange on the Steam Marketplace, you'll start to see Valve bankroll even larger amounts of money. Hell, I wouldn't be suprised if Valve swithced most of their money transactions to BitCoin, as it's a far more profitable venture, considering that a $1 USD increase in Bitcoin Value means you effectively make money pop out of nowhere.[/QUOTE] The gambling is third party, Valve should legally be in the clear. All [B]Valve[/B] allows as a first party is to buy and sell loot. Gambling of the loot is done by third party sites that Valve has no links to. This is a stupid lawsuit and I can't wait to watch the prosecution get curb stomped by Valve's billion dollar lawyers. [editline]25th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Punchy;50589638]Gambling is illegal for minors... those websites give minors the opportunity to gamble often without even having a 18+ warning for new users. The issue isn't inherent gambling, it's advocating illegal gambling. It's like suing the casino for letting your 12 year old son gamble.[/QUOTE] This is like suing the company that manufactures the plastic chips, rather than the casino.

And Valves take a cut of profit for each transaction if it's done over the community market, and if it's not, some items will eventually return to the market to turn profit from gambling wins. This is like trying to say the casinos in Japan are not casinos. It's silly.

[QUOTE=Punchy;50589638]without even having a 18+ warning[/QUOTE] [quote]By placing a bet on CSGOLounge you are confirming that you are in abidance with your country's laws which allow you to participate in skin-betting. This is generally 18 years of age or older, but make sure to check. If we have any questions regarding your age, we have the right to freeze your account and ask you for documents to confirm your age.[/quote] [url]http://www.csgolounge.com/rules[/url] [quote]You must be at least 18 years of age to play on CSGO Diamonds.[/quote] [url]http://csgodiamonds.com/terms[/url] Also OPskins isn't a gambling site, just a 3rd party version of steam marketplace. I suppose it's mention is because it's the only way to "cash out" for real money. [editline]24th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;50589685]And Valves take a cut of profit for each transaction if it's done over the community market, and if it's not, some items will eventually return to the market to turn profit from gambling wins. This is like trying to say the casinos in Japan are not casinos. It's silly.[/QUOTE] What exactly does taxing item purchases have to do with gambling

You guys are idiots technically speaking casino chits and poker chips have no real legal value but gambling them without a listener or being 19 or whatever end your ass is on is still illegal. Doesn't matter what they are worth valve knows what they are doing and someone is gonna get fucked by this

Also since the marketplace is entirely made of wallet funds, it's money they already owned in the first place

Not checking ID on gambling is gonna get someone in shit. The only reason porno gets around it is because the revenue isn't taxed or regulated like gambling

[QUOTE=sb27;50589294]It is Valve's problem. The case is about them knowingly facilitating and allowing illegal gambling on their services and not doing anything to stop it. If this were a murder case, Valve would be an accessory to the crime.[/QUOTE] Ehhh I wouldn't go that far. It would be more like they were the providers of the weapon. They are the providers of skins you're the one to chose what you do with them

Taxing has everything to fucking do with it, this is a way of circumventing the IRA or whatever your governments regulatory body's taxing shit is called. When you fuck with government taxes like this u get boned

[QUOTE=A_Pigeon;50589711]Not checking ID on gambling is gonna get someone in shit. The only reason porno gets around it is because the revenue isn't taxed or regulated like gambling[/QUOTE] How do you tax a virtual item [editline]24th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=A_Pigeon;50589722]Taxing has everything to fucking do with it, this is a way of circumventing the IRA or whatever your governments regulatory body's taxing shit is called. When you fuck with government taxes like this u get boned[/QUOTE] It's valve's tax we're discussing lol. They take back 15% of market transactions.

[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;50589723]How do you tax a virtual item[/QUOTE] Same way you tax everything else, you take your cut from the company that pays it out. Basically every virtual casino has to do it.

But that's not how it works. They bet items for items then sell them on eBay like sites. It's like if I put a teddy bear into a box of teddy bears, won the other teddy bears in a game of dice then sold them on Amazon

Yeah just toss that personal responsibility right off the cliff

Valves cut I exactly why governments would care. By taking that 15% cut they are directly profiting off of the trades made through these sites, using a system they set up. The API is gonna get shut down or changed or valves gonna get some crazy regulations slapped on them. Even inadvertently running an illegal casino is serious shit

[QUOTE=A_Pigeon;50589704]You guys are idiots technically speaking casino chits and poker chips have no real legal value but gambling them without a listener or being 19 or whatever end your ass is on is still illegal. Doesn't matter what they are worth valve knows what they are doing and someone is gonna get fucked by this[/QUOTE] the casino sells the chips and directly exchanges the chips for money if valve was the one running the csgo casinos theyd be fucked because they're selling the skins, but since they aren't running the casino they aren't responsible

[QUOTE=A_Pigeon;50589746]Valves cut I exactly why governments would care. By taking that 15% cut they are directly profiting off of the trades made through these sites, using a system they set up. The API is gonna get shut down or changed or valves gonna get some crazy regulations slapped on them. Even inadvertently running an illegal casino is serious shit[/QUOTE] Dude it's like you don't even know what you're talking about They don't take 15% from the third party sites. They take it off of their own store that has no gaming aspects.

[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;50589741]But that's not how it works. They bet items for items then sell them on eBay like sites. It's like if I put a teddy bear into a box of teddy bears, won the other teddy bears in a game of dice then sold them on Amazon[/QUOTE] Hosting an or playing craps for anything without a license is illegal in many state such as California

[QUOTE=A_Pigeon;50589755]Hosting an or playing craps for anything without a license is illegal in many state such as California[/QUOTE] From what I could tell on the few seconds I was checking the site it seems they bet on pro matches. I've also seen a tf2 one where you donate to a raffle and get entered simultaneously, winner takes all. [editline]24th June 2016[/editline] Either way that's not on valve lol. It's like if you sued the guys who made that teddy bear or Amazon

[QUOTE=mopman999;50589716]Ehhh I wouldn't go that far. It would be more like they were the providers of the weapon. They are the providers of skins you're the one to chose what you do with them[/QUOTE] The point is valve is providing the means to do big bucks gambling while claiming to be handling virtual goods that have no value, if you want to apply the weapon analogy is more like getting a license to sell airsoft guns and then selling real weapons Even then the law still hasn't caught up since this kind of system is pretty much based on exploiting loopholes so hard to say whether valve is legally at fault, it has to happen eventually

By taking their cut in steam marketplace sales they can be tied to profiting off these illegal casinos and even if their API terms of use are written to ban using it for illegal activities, if valve can be proven to have knowledge of these sites without taking them down they can be in some shit