Valve Being Sued for Running Illegal Gambling via CSGO Crates - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Ryo Ohki;50589790]The point is valve is providing the means to do big bucks gambling while claiming to be handling virtual goods that have no value, if you want to apply the weapon analogy is more like getting a license to sell airsoft guns and then selling real weapons Even then the law still hasn't caught up since this kind of system is pretty much based on exploiting loopholes so hard to say whether valve is legally at fault, it has to happen eventually[/QUOTE] By this logic hasbro and Walmart are giving the means to do big bucks gambling

but it's not illegal again stop being stubborn please

[QUOTE=A_Pigeon;50589792]By taking their cut in steam marketplace sales they can be tied to profiting off these illegal casinos and even if their API terms of use are written to ban using it for illegal activities, if valve can be proven to have knowledge of these sites without taking them down they can be in some shit[/QUOTE] So if I go to a casino and instead of cashing in I sell those chips to a tabletop store down the street that they were bought from, the tabletop store is responsible for the gambling? Also it's stupid that the API is an argument, Facebook does the same thing they aren't responsible when something happens on sites using their features

[QUOTE=Ryo Ohki;50589790]The point is valve is providing the means to do big bucks gambling while claiming to be handling virtual goods that have no value, if you want to apply the weapon analogy is more like getting a license to sell airsoft guns and then selling real weapons Even then the law still hasn't caught up since this kind of system is pretty much based on exploiting loopholes so hard to say whether valve is legally at fault, it has to happen eventually[/QUOTE] This is basically what I'm saying. It's not an open or shut case this is realllllllllyyyy pushing the edge of what they legally can and can't do. Even if valve wins this the laws will be changed to stop it. You are delusional if you think that any legal teams for the U.S. Govt. are gonna see these and be okay with it.

[QUOTE=A_Pigeon;50589704]You guys are idiots technically speaking casino chits and poker chips have no real legal value but gambling them without a listener or being 19 or whatever end your ass is on is still illegal. Doesn't matter what they are worth valve knows what they are doing and someone is gonna get fucked by this[/QUOTE] Valve isn't the casino though, they're the producer of the gambling chips. I don't think manufacturers of poker chips face damage when illegal casinos using their chips do

Friend got addicted and did $3000 on CS:GO crates, sold all the items, bought more keys, lost everything. It might as bloody well be gambling.

Also they take a cut of [b]store credit[/b] The money used to buy things on the market was always in valves hands anyway. [editline]24th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Te Great Skeeve;50589814]Friend got addicted and did $3000 on CS:GO crates, sold all the items, bought more keys, lost everything. It might as bloody well be gambling.[/QUOTE] The suit isn't about crates

[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;50589808]So if I go to a casino and instead of cashing in I sell those chips to a tabletop store down the street that they were bought from, the tabletop store is responsible for the gambling? Also it's stupid that the API is an argument, Facebook does the same thing they aren't responsible when something happens on sites using their features[/QUOTE] What the fuck is thi analogy it doesn't matter what the fuck the chips are being used for you can bet your fucking dildos if you want. It doesn't matter what the fuck you're gambling if the casino is unlicensed they're gonna get fucking charged. The tabletop store isn't also taking a cut when THE CHIPS ARE CASHED IN which is what valve technically does and is why this is shady as fuck [editline]25th June 2016[/editline] TE GAMBLING CHIP ANALOG IS INERT BECAUSE THE ROYAL BEE COMPANY DOESNT TAKE a 15% CUT FROM ALL TRANSACTIONS MADE IN CHIPS

its still not illegal and the chip company does make money when the shady casino buys the chips also valve doesn't take a 15% cut when people sell FOR REAL MONEY THE STEAM CURRENCY IS NOT REAL MONEY valve makes money off you buying steam currency, all the 15% does is take steam currency out of the market, they don't make real money off of it

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;50589685]And Valves take a cut of profit for each transaction if it's done over the community market, and if it's not, some items will eventually return to the market to turn profit from gambling wins. This is like trying to say the casinos in Japan are not casinos. It's silly.[/QUOTE] So what should Valve do? Completely remove the ability to buy/sell/trade items on Steam? Or just dismantle the Steam web API? Just because they're making money doesn't mean it's their fault. If I put a gun to somebody's head and make them buy something at the store, the store doesn't get in trouble, I do, because [I]I'm[/I] the one doing something illegal. The fact that the store made money from it is irrelevant seeing as they didn't participate in the illegal part.

[QUOTE=Untouch;50589840]its still not illegal and the chip company does make money when the shady casino buys the chips also valve doesn't take a 15% cut when people sell FOR REAL MONEY THE STEAM CURRENCY IS NOT REAL MONEY valve makes money off you buying steam currency, all the 15% does is take steam currency out of the market, they don't make real money off of it[/QUOTE] The chip company isn't working with the casino or even inadvertently forcing the casino to remove 15% of its chips from circulation to promote further sales of casino chips. They are profiting off of these casinos by artificially forcing a requirement to buy more chips, which is what could get them in trouble [editline]25th June 2016[/editline] They are exploiting their chip service in a way that causes them to even if unintentionally profit off of these illegal casinos

As much as I hate microtransactions, valve will win, this case has no basis in reality unless valve owns one of the gambling websites. This is like going after the manufacturer of poker chips for christ sakes, they profit from the sales of their chips and the chips are used in gambling [B]Edit:[/B] After reading the post above me, I am now more skeptical

That is what is probably illegal about what they are doing, and it's very doubtful that the prosecutor will say "this is kinda sketchy, but half life 2 was a great game so go out there and change nothing"

actually it's more like a casino without a license has a slot machine that's perfectly legal except wait that doesn't work either because the casino sites aren't doing anything illegal immoral? sure illegal? no

By creating the API and designing the system so that their chips expire with every transaction, they have created a connection between them and illegal gambling that simply doesn't exist with plastic chip makera

again the api is not licensed and using it explicitly states that valve isn't affiliated again it isn't illegal

If the sites are located in the United atates, which odds are at least one is, gambling anything with a value such as skins is technically illegal

[QUOTE=A_Pigeon;50589922]If the sites are located in the United atates, which odds are at least one is, gambling anything with a value such as skins is technically illegal[/QUOTE] Yes, but Valve isn't gambling. Valve owns Steam, Steam users can buy/sell virtual items. That is what [I]Valve[/I] does. The [I]casino sites[/I] do the gambling, and help automate buy/sell actions on Steam to perform transactions. This is a case of the casinos misusing Valve's systems, Valve is not doing anything that could be construed as gambling.

I really don't get how Valve taking 15% of market transactions has anything to do with this. A gambling site isn't listing the products on the Steam Market, that wouldn't make any sense. It seems far more likely that they use Steam Trading which (A) only allows trading items and (B) doesn't involve Valve taking a cut.

They don't need to be gambling. That's not why the lawsuit is about. The lawsuit is claiming that they have designed their system of buying and selling in such a way that allows them to indirectly profit off of online gambling. Running an online casino is illegal in Washington, which by the API terms of use, all API projects must abide by and fall under the jurisdiction of. The lawsuit is claiming that valve had the knowledge that they were enabling these online casinos to flourish, which with the amount of them in existence isn't that hard to believe. The court case is being built on whether or not valves system of taking away 15% of all Of the official chips influenced the purchase of more chips to gamble on these websites. This would tie valve into accidentally profiting off of illegal casinos while also tying themselves to their operations. They have what no plastic chip company has in the world. An artificial monopoly on all chip sales. By knowingly allowing the API's use in illegal gaming they would be giving themselves a reasonable enough connection to the operation of these sites, giving them an unwritten agreement to supply all the chips being used with the requirement of 15% of all chips used in a transaction being returned to them for resale. [editline]25th June 2016[/editline] This all comes back to government taxes on gambling, somewhere down the line someone isn't payin Uncle Sam their cut, and you best believe everyone who plays a part is getting hit with spnething [editline]25th June 2016[/editline] Valves not getting hit for hosting gambling, they're getting hit for profiting off of it, which is still illegal

[QUOTE=A_Pigeon;50590010]They don't need to be gambling. That's not why the lawsuit is about. The lawsuit is claiming that they have designed their system of buying and selling in such a way that allows them to indirectly profit off of online gambling. Running an online casino is illegal in Washington, which by the API terms of use, all API projects must abide by and fall under the jurisdiction of. The lawsuit is claiming that valve had the knowledge that they were enabling these online casinos to flourish, which with the amount of them in existence isn't that hard to believe. The court case is being built on whether or not valves system of taking away 15% of all Of the official chips influenced the purchase of more chips to gamble on these websites. This would tie valve into accidentally profiting off of illegal casinos while also tying themselves to their operations. They have what no plastic chip company has in the world. An artificial monopoly on all chip sales. By knowingly allowing the API's use in illegal gaming they would be giving themselves a reasonable enough connection to the operation of these sites, giving them an unwritten agreement to supply all the chips being used with the requirement of 15% of all chips used in a transaction being returned to them for resale. [editline]25th June 2016[/editline] This all comes back to government taxes on gambling, somewhere down the line someone isn't payin Uncle Sam their cut, and you best believe everyone who plays a part is getting hit with spnething [editline]25th June 2016[/editline] Valves not getting hit for hosting gambling, they're getting hit for profiting off of it, which is still illegal[/QUOTE] i wouldn't call this "knowingly allowing the API's use in illegal gambling" [vid]https://my.mixtape.moe/ikvosw.webm[/vid] [editline]24th June 2016[/editline] i.e. there's not some laborious process you have to go through to get it approved

[QUOTE=A_Pigeon;50589834]What the fuck is thi analogy it doesn't matter what the fuck the chips are being used for you can bet your fucking dildos if you want. It doesn't matter what the fuck you're gambling if the casino is unlicensed they're gonna get fucking charged. The tabletop store isn't also taking a cut when THE CHIPS ARE CASHED IN which is what valve technically does and is why this is shady as fuck [editline]25th June 2016[/editline] TE GAMBLING CHIP ANALOG IS INERT BECAUSE THE ROYAL BEE COMPANY DOESNT TAKE a 15% CUT FROM ALL TRANSACTIONS MADE IN CHIPS[/QUOTE] You pretty much refuse to understand how it works don't you? They don't take a cut of EVERY TRANSACTION INVOLVING they take a cut when you sell it on THEIR OWN MARKETPLACE UNRELATED TO THE GAMBLE SITES

A cut of MONEY THEY ALREADY HAVE SINCE ITS STORE CREDIT

[QUOTE=A_Pigeon;50589834]What the fuck is thi analogy it doesn't matter what the fuck the chips are being used for you can bet your fucking dildos if you want. It doesn't matter what the fuck you're gambling if the casino is unlicensed they're gonna get fucking charged. The tabletop store isn't also taking a cut when THE CHIPS ARE CASHED IN which is what valve technically does and is why this is shady as fuck [editline]25th June 2016[/editline] TE GAMBLING CHIP ANALOG IS INERT BECAUSE THE ROYAL BEE COMPANY DOESNT TAKE a 15% CUT FROM ALL TRANSACTIONS MADE IN CHIPS[/QUOTE] since someone's already said it valve's already out of the picture by the same logic we should charge pill press manufacturers with aiding and abetting molly distribution "they made money from selling the pill press, and then the people who they are no longer responsible for made molly with their pill press, obviously they're profiting off people making/selling molly"

[QUOTE=LordCrypto;50590045]i wouldn't call this "knowingly allowing the API's use in illegal gambling" [vid]https://my.mixtape.moe/ikvosw.webm[/vid] [editline]24th June 2016[/editline] i.e. there's not some laborious process you have to go through to get it approved[/QUOTE] "You are limited to one hundred thousand (100,000) calls to the Steam Web API per day. Valve may approve higher daily call limits if you adhere to these API Terms of Use." If you use the steam API more than 100 000 times a day, valve has to manually approve you to use more, it's not unlikely these sites use more than this. I. They can prove that these sites received permission to use more than 100 000 calls, they can prove alive knew about them [editline]25th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=LordCrypto;50590073]since someone's already said it valve's already out of the picture by the same logic we should charge pill press manufacturers with aiding and abetting molly distribution "they made money from selling the pill press, and then the people who they are no longer responsible for made molly with their pill press, obviously they're profiting off people making/selling molly"[/QUOTE] The pill press company doesn't have to give you approval to press more than 100 000 pills per day, nor do they have a way that forces a monopoly on pressing using their pills and artificially forces the purchase of more pill presses [editline]25th June 2016[/editline] And they sure as hell do not provide an active service where they press whatever you send them no questions asked

[QUOTE=A_Pigeon;50590091][B]"You are limited to one hundred thousand (100,000) calls to the Steam Web API per day. Valve may approve higher daily call limits if you adhere to these API Terms of Use."[/B] If you use the steam API more than 100 000 times a day, valve has to manually approve you to use more, it's not unlikely these sites use more than this. I. They can prove that these sites received permission to use more than 100 000 calls, they can prove alive knew about them [editline]25th June 2016[/editline] The pill press company doesn't have to give you approval to press more than 100 000 pills per day, nor do they have a way that forces a monopoly on pressing using their pills and artificially forces the purchase of more pill presses [editline]25th June 2016[/editline] And they sure as hell do not provide an active service where they press whatever you send them no questions asked[/QUOTE] and if the betting webdevs aren't hilariously incompetent they're caching inventories i doubt they're hitting the 100k limit, they're relatively niche websites

[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;50590072]A cut of MONEY THEY ALREADY HAVE SINCE ITS STORE CREDIT[/QUOTE] On that subject in certain countries they are suppose to refund into the way it was paid. Eg. If you pay in cash then cash.

If you knowingly sell the press to people who intend to make Molly with it you are criminally liable, which is what the case is trying to prove, that they knew what the press was being used for.

[QUOTE=A_Pigeon;50590118]If you knowingly sell the press to people who intend to make Molly with it you are criminally liable, which is what the case is trying to prove, that they knew what the press was being used for.[/QUOTE] but they're two unrelated acts valve isn't tracking each individual key as it moves through inventories so they don't directly know what income is coming from those sites, or if any is, because it's not like the tf2 crate key purchase thing says "are you gonna spend this on betting"

Yeah they only track items if they have a reason to. Someone would have to report it