Valve Being Sued for Running Illegal Gambling via CSGO Crates - Polidicks

Csgolounge has an estimated 3.9 million visitors per day according to web traffic analytics. If even 2 percent of those users added or removed an item from the lounge, that 100 000 cap would be reached. CSGOlounge circumvents that "niche" problem by offering both trading and betting, increasing the traffic to thei site. If it can be proven that valve granted this permission to them, that's a reasonable enough tie in. [editline]25th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=LordCrypto;50590128]but they're two unrelated acts valve isn't tracking each individual key as it moves through inventories so they don't directly know what income is coming from those sites, or if any is, because it's not like the tf2 crate key purchase thing says "are you gonna spend this on betting"[/QUOTE] No shit they're two unrelated acts. But how do you expect a rebuttal o a comparison between two unrelated acts to go?

If this is illegal gambling, Valve's fucked anyways. There's no way that these "casino" websites are illegal yet the crate/case system is legal. They're either both legal or both illegal.

[QUOTE=geel9;50590182]If this is illegal gambling, Valve's fucked anyways. There's no way that these "casino" websites are illegal yet the crate/case system is legal. They're either both legal or both illegal.[/QUOTE] Then they're both legal lol You're crazy if you believe they didn't lawyer the shit out of it BEFORE implementing it. Plus they've done it and other companies have done it for at least 6 years Edit: Don't you run a site like this geel9

Reading this lawsuit's actual text, there's so much stupid shit. [quote][CSGO] Lounge is a third-party site that allows users to place bets on professional Counter-Strike matches. Users simply link their Steam accounts via a sponsored Valve link on Lounge’s site.[/quote] Yea, [url=http://i.imgur.com/YkEIwNF.png]totally "sponsored"[/url]. [quote]Defendant Valve knowingly allows Lounge to provide links to Valve’s Steam marketplace.[/quote] Valve knowingly allows websites to [b]link to public pages on their site[/b]? The [i]horror[/i]! How exactly are they going to stop that if they even knew it was happening. [quote]Defendant Valve knowingly allowed, supported, and/or sponsored illegal gambling by allowing millions of Americans to link their individual Steam accounts to third- party websites[/quote] [quote]OPSkins is a third-party Skins marketplace website that allows a user to link their individual Steam account[/quote] Whoever is making this lawsuit doesn't seem to realize the link is on the third-party site, not Valve's. Valve, like Google, Facebook, Twitter, and many many other websites offers a way for unaffiliated third-party websites to verify someone is the owner of a specific account for a given website without compromising the security of that person's account. Somehow, this makes Valve guilty of something? To be clear, these systems basically work by having the user go to Valve and ask for a ticket proving they own the account they claim, this user can then go back to the third party and present this ticket, which the third party can check with Valve to verify it's authentic. [quote]The creation of Skins was a deliberate attempt by Valve to increase its sales and profits by adding an element of gambling to its products.[/quote] There "proof" of this seems to be: [quote]This was a deliberate strategy on Valve’s part: one of its employees explained at a developer’s conference in 2014 that the company determined that the “best way to get players deeply engaged in games…was to give away virtual items of random value and encourage a robust market to trade them.”[/quote] And trading (items you don't want, or real money, for items you do) equals gambling in this person's mind I guess. [quote]Valve has sold more than 21 million copies of CS:GO, earned more than $567 million in total revenue from sales of CS:GO alone, and earned a percentage of gambling proceeds on CS:GO through various websites and third parties.[/quote] Ok, let's look at the source: [url]http://www.bloomberg.com/features/2016-virtual-guns-counterstrike-gambling/[/url] [quote]whenever CS:GO skins are sold, the game maker collects 15 percent of the money.[/quote] Oh, so Valve "gets a cut" when someone who won an item through gambling on a third party website sells that item from their inventory on the Steam Market. That's like saying a pawn shop owner who buys something someone won gambling is profiting off of gambling. The pawn shop owner, like Valve, doesn't care how the person got the item in their inventory and can't really police it either. [quote]alve sells Skins through its website and Steam platform. These Skins can be won, bought, trade, sold, and otherwise have in-game value through Steam’s marketplace and the CS:GO game itself. It also sells higher-priced versions of Skins called Knives using the same system.[/quote] Basically, this person's claim is Valve is enabling illegal gambling because they run a marketplace that allows people to buy and sell goods, and some people are buying those goods, using them to gamble, and then "cashing out" (for Steam Wallet currency, which is basically fake money, but anyway) by selling those items again on marketplace. This is truly retarded. [quote]Players can link their Steam account to third party websites such as Diamonds, Lounge and OPSkins. These third party websites require permission and cooperation from Valve in order to access a player’s account on Steam, and Valve specifically allows players to transfer skins to third-party sights.[/quote] Wrong. Steam's OpenID is openly available to anyone; you don't need an API key. I know because I just tried and it worked perfectly. [quote]As the above screenshot shows, the STEAM logo is prominently displayed and users must login through STEAM to access and bet their Skins.[/quote] So, if I display a Steam logo on my site I'm now officially affiliated with Valve? [quote]In a post on Valve’s forum, a moderator--that is, a Valve spokesperson who manages the forums on behalf of Valve--told “younger” users who think they have been scammed through third party sites such as Lounge to not post on the forums about it.[/quote] For reference, this post: [url]https://steamcommunity.com/groups/csgolounge/discussions/8/627456486705186974/[/url] Oh, wait, what? That's a Moderator for the CSGOLounge group on Steam, not a Valve employee or volunteer Valve moderator? A+ research. I'm sure there's more, but I don't feel like wading through even more of this stupidity. Hopefully this case gets thrown out and this moron gets stuck with the legal fees on top of their gambling losses for wasting everyone's time.

Tbh it doesn't look good that they have a 500 000 user group that violates their TOS operating on their site and haven't made an effort to distance themselves.

That only further proves they don't know about it

[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;50590273]That only further proves they don't know about it[/QUOTE] They absolutely, without a doubt, are completely and totally aware of these sites.

Didn't the international (Dota 2's massive tourney) have sponsors from a fuckton of betting site sponsers?

What part of the TOS, pigeon? I already looked at it and didn't find anything specifically prohibiting just that they don't support/aren't responsible for

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;50589180]Well that has severe implications for the online economies are a ton of games. [B]If Valve loses that case, [I]every single game[/I] using the crate system will have to stop. [/B]Hopefully games like Overwatch elect to halt sales of crates so you can still get the free ones, so it isn't considered gambling.[/QUOTE] thats the best possible scenario, tbh.

[QUOTE=poopiecrap;50589523]i don't see how it's valve fault for these websites using their web api for shit like this[/QUOTE] They actively allow it. It's not as if they can say they were not aware of what their API is being used for.

[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;50590072]A cut of MONEY THEY ALREADY HAVE SINCE ITS STORE CREDIT[/QUOTE] Saying they already have it so it doesnt matter is misleading and wrong. People put money into steam because they then have that money in steam, to spend on stuff. If they run out of credit, people get more. If they didnt run out of credit, people would not get more. its the entire point of a steam wallet, its not just magic money that doesnt really have value.

Its not as simple as copyright or other globally illegal subjects, the gambling legality is conditional, do they really need to police every 3rd party to see if they are obliging by all the laws in all the countries for their APIs to exist?

Are those sites even illegal?

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;50590325]Didn't the international (Dota 2's massive tourney) have sponsors from a fuckton of betting site sponsers?[/QUOTE] Yes, and valve as far as I know banned teams sponsored by betting sites.

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;50589506]The thing is its not like valve or any other company forces you to partake in these things. It's entirely up to the user to partake in these things. If you are a sap and find yourself caught up in this shit and valves making a profit its your own damn fault. It's not like Gabe is holding a gun to your head telliung you to do this shit. This is honestly coming from people who don't want to claim personal responsibility.[/QUOTE] I suppose that rhetoric makes gambling laws obsolete doesn't it

is this the whole "are gun manufacturers guilty if their guns are used to murder" debate again [editline]25th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=DogGunn;50590464]They actively allow it. It's not as if they can say they were not aware of what their API is being used for.[/QUOTE] no, they inactively allow it what the fuck they don't go on every site and monitor whats done on them, they don't give two shits how their api is used; many illegal sites use facebook likes does that mean facebook should be sued and shut down? [editline]25th June 2016[/editline] you can't go use something, commit a crime with the thing, and blame the person who made it lol, thats hideous.

Valve and Konami should develop pachinko games on steam that gives your prizes(not money directly so legal grey area gambling) which you can sell on market(pawn shop) for money.

[QUOTE=Map in a box;50592840]is this the whole "are gun manufacturers guilty if their guns are used to murder" debate again [editline]25th June 2016[/edit line no, they inactively allow it what the fuck they don't go on every site and monitor whats done on them, they don't give two shits how their api is used; many illegal sites use facebook likes does that mean facebook should be sued and shut down? [editline]25th June 2016[/editline] you can't go use something, commit a crime with the thing, and blame the person who made it lol, thats hideous.[/QUOTE] Gun manufacturers also aren't selling directly to the public through unregulated streams, although this analogy makes no sense as valve is offering a service, not a product, to these sites. That's why they are potentially liable in this case. A more accurate analogy would be a company offering free gun rentals with no background or liscense checks under the condition that you pinkie swear to do legal things and not obtain the guns if it would be illegal to do so Pretty obvious why the whole "we don't ask they don't tell ;)" won't fly in court

pinkie swear? the tos is binding. how is it any different other than gun sales requiring the buyer to be checked (like that influences who the manufacturer is) how is it different because valve is offering a service? and why do you assume that "we don't ask they don't tell" is a bad thing? walmart doesn't care what groceries you buy so are you saying they should monitor everything everyone buys to make sure they're not doing anything illegal with them? [editline]25th June 2016[/editline] you're setting some abhorrent precedence if you think this suit is justified, companies being blamed for the contents of their users, which is -allowed- under dmca

[QUOTE=Punchy;50589638]Gambling is illegal for minors... those websites give minors the opportunity to gamble often without even having a 18+ warning for new users. The issue isn't inherent gambling, it's advocating illegal gambling. It's like suing the casino for letting your 12 year old son gamble.[/QUOTE] If dogs could do it, they wouldn't care either. It's just like the age restriction thing. "Are you 18?" "Ofc, yes, why not, lets go!"

[QUOTE=Johnny Guitar;50589168]good, they deserve it tbh[/QUOTE] Not really, no. [editline]25th June 2016[/editline] This is the EXACT REASON that bitcoin gambling is legal. These items do not have intrinsic value, these items are not currency, it is not gambling. It's not common sense, Valve isn't "getting what's coming to them", and the site does not target children. I personally think that the gambling site is pointless as hellong and is (obviously) designed to lose your items but can everyone just stop pretending to be so offended already [editline]25th June 2016[/editline] Like, for real, when it comes out the other end it isn't even cash. Even if valve DID know what they were doing, there was still no wrong done because the gambling site itself did nothing wrong because items =/= cash, making it ~not gambling~

[IMG]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-N6xFe3pv2xA/VZJ0pnlPYCI/AAAAAAAAAFk/Rdg_9C5xnW4/s640/Screenshot_7.jpg[/IMG] You have to accept (Steam EULA) that you are age of 13+ when installing Steam to play... but gambling age is 18+ hmmm. However, [URL="http://counterstrike.wikia.com/wiki/Counter-Strike:_Global_Offensive"]CSGO[/URL] is PEGI:18 and/or ESBR:M for Mature. As an adult, I'm sure you should be responsible for your own actions; such as linking your own Steam account to 3rd party websites which Valve is not affiliated with. It is one of those situations where drivers have 100% fault on crashing their own car for drunk driving and in the end sues the car dealer. :v:

[QUOTE=phygon;50593470]Not really, no. [editline]25th June 2016[/editline] This is the EXACT REASON that bitcoin gambling is legal. These items do not have intrinsic value, these items are not currency, it is not gambling. It's not common sense, Valve isn't "getting what's coming to them", and the site does not target children. I personally think that the gambling site is pointless as hellong and is (obviously) designed to lose your items but can everyone just stop pretending to be so offended already [editline]25th June 2016[/editline] Like, for real, when it comes out the other end it isn't even cash. Even if valve DID know what they were doing, there was still no wrong done because the gambling site itself did nothing wrong because items =/= cash, making it ~not gambling~[/QUOTE] The legal definition of gambling includes "items of value". It might not be targeted toward minors but considering the demographics of games like CS:GO it's not like the runners of these types of sites don't know who's using their service. Gambling addiction is a real thing and these sites make it very appealing to teens, even if valve can't be held responsible in any way, they have a moral obligation to make attempts to shut down sites like this that they are aware of, not only for the sake of their own reputation, but for the well-being of their users.

[QUOTE=A_Pigeon;50590118]If you knowingly sell the press to people who intend to make Molly with it you are criminally liable, which is what the case is trying to prove, that they knew what the press was being used for.[/QUOTE] Have fun proving the "Knowingly" part. Same in this case.

[QUOTE=nox;50594436]The legal definition of gambling includes "items of value". It might not be targeted toward minors but considering the demographics of games like CS:GO it's not like the runners of these types of sites don't know who's using their service. Gambling addiction is a real thing and these sites make it very appealing to teens, even if valve can't be held responsible in any way, [B]they have a moral obligation to make attempts to shut down sites like this that they are aware of, not only for the sake of their own reputation, but for the well-being of their users[/B].[/QUOTE] Almost every single game on the market is addictive in some way, this is literally no different. You get items by playing the game, or unboxing. The very nature of boxes themselves is "gambling" under this definition, you pay an amount of money and then randomly get something back- Some of which have more value attributed to them. Valve doesn't have a moral obligation to do anything because they, like every other AAA game on the market, are making use of this "gambling" themselves. Also, skins are not items of value and trading for actual money is against the TOS so there you go

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50594490]Have fun proving the "Knowingly" part. Same in this case.[/QUOTE] Like I said before, if they can prove any of these sites creates more than 100 000 request's they can

"Illegal gambling" Where's the irony meter, that shit should be off the charts.

tbh I don't really care if it's legal or not I wish Valve would be slammed hard since I think it's disgusting that this is what fuels their decisions on what games to make or not make. Every Valve game must have an "economy" now. They tried and failed with Portal 2 because it doesn't work for a singleplayer archetype. That's why Half Life will never be made. [editline]25th June 2016[/editline] but I guess that statement is just as selfish as how much they charge for keys. The old Valve is dead and this is just what they are now. There's no coming back from an economy you've created that literally circulates billions of dollars.

Again this case isn't actually related to crates and keys. Title needs changed because it's awful [editline]25th June 2016[/editline] Also don't pretend valve only does this. Their economist works at this, and meanwhile they're working on source 2, VR, steam, etc and leaks of l4d3 and hl3. The portal hats were for the co op mode. To say they sit around and take money is ignorant. The CSGO/tf2/Dota economy is more like a constant stream of funding for their projects like the Vive and source 2. They specifically hired a Greek economist to handle this stuff so they don't have to, long ago.