Tim Hortons franchise owners tell workers to blame Wynne for benefit cuts and to 'not vote Liberal' - Polidicks

[QUOTE=phygon;53069245]Wow, one single fucking day off for the death of an [I]immediate[/I] family member. This means that if your best friend were to die, you would get [B]0 days off[/B], and if your wife died you would get [B]one day off[/B]. Are you fucking kidding me?[/QUOTE] There's no reason to be making a big fuss about it. You get 1 [b]paid[/b] day off. it's not saying that you [i]can't[/i] take only one day of leave, just that only one day of leave will be covered for. The above is actually unheard of to me, a [i]fast food business[/i] paying a day off.

[QUOTE=angrytoiletry;53069470]There's no reason to be making a big fuss about it. You get 1 [b]paid[/b] day off. it's not saying that you [i]can't[/i] take only one day of leave, just that only one day of leave will be covered for. The above is actually unheard of to me, a [i]fast food business[/i] paying a day off.[/QUOTE] And the fact that it's unheard of to you is fucked up.

[QUOTE=angrytoiletry;53069470] The above is actually unheard of to me, a [i]fast food business[/i] paying a day off.[/QUOTE] Why single this particular aspect out? I hate this attitude tbh. It comes across as "Lol you work in fast food that's not a real job so you don't deserve real workers rights".

[QUOTE=Thlis;53069082]Then count yourself lucky. I'd be ecstatic to get half the benefits they are now getting. Out of cheapskate dirt bag moves this is shitty but not apocalypticly shitty.[/QUOTE] I don't even get benefits and I've been at my place of work for two, almost three years.

[QUOTE=angrytoiletry;53069470]There's no reason to be making a big fuss about it. You get 1 [b]paid[/b] day off. it's not saying that you [i]can't[/i] take only one day of leave, just that only one day of leave will be covered for. The above is actually unheard of to me, a [i]fast food business[/i] paying a day off.[/QUOTE] I worked at in n out and give the fact that they didn't treat us like garbage I'm pretty sure I'd get more than two paid days off if my parents died in an accident.

The fact that people are rightfully and willing to defend these systems as victims of them is disturbing to me to be honest.

[QUOTE=fulgrim;53069603]Why single this particular aspect out? I hate this attitude tbh. It comes across as "Lol you work in fast food that's not a real job so you don't deserve real workers rights".[/QUOTE] imo fast food shouldnt be a job where you expect all these benefits, if you want decent benefits and a good paying job, get some actual life skills

[QUOTE=angrytoiletry;53070109]imo fast food shouldnt be a job where you expect all these benefits, if you want decent benefits and a good paying job, get some actual life skills[/QUOTE] What if there aren't any other jobs for that area at that time? What 'life skills' would save you then? You're just making the tired, old, 'bootstraps!' argument without taking even a moment to put things into context. These days, you're lucky to even get a fast food job as you have to fall into the 'not a convict, not highly educated, doesn't have a lot of work experience, but doesn't have no work experience, is willing and able to work on a flex schedule that is tantamount to being 'on call 24/7' or they're to be fired and gain no benefits or insurance whatsoever because that's for 'full time' employees and we refuse to allow our employees to reach 40 hours and a full year of employment, though 39.9999 hours is fine so make sure you check out 2 minutes before the end of your shift. Also, if we even hear about you thinking about a union, you're fired.' category. I'm hopeful that 'your opinion' doesn't ever become one that is spread to any business owner or manager. I am such a manager and if I worked fast food, my goal would be to provide those benefits to my employees because they aren't vending machines for my customers to operate. Also, I don't see them as cogs I can just swap out blindly for another - I invest in my employees so that I can keep them. That's not 'incompatible' with fast food management; though from the looks of things in 40 years 'fast food cashier' and 'fast food cook' are job positions that won't exist as they'll be roboticized. People are neither cattle nor cogs; they should not be treated as such.

It's not going to be a popular opinion, but what did you expect? This wage increase cuts into the owner's paycheque, and while some people think they may make too much, that's the pay grade they've gotten used to living in, and they're not going to want to take a pay cut. Given that Tim's centrally sets food prices, the franchise owners can't raise them to compensate, so of course worker's benefits, which cost money, are going to take a hit. I don't get why people are us surprised about this, it was inevitably going to happen with the minimum wage going up almost $3 in one go.

[QUOTE=DaCommie1;53070171]It's not going to be a popular opinion, but what did you expect? This wage increase cuts into the owner's paycheque, and while some people think they may make too much, that's the pay grade they've gotten used to living in, and they're not going to want to take a pay cut. Given that Tim's centrally sets food prices, the franchise owners can't raise them to compensate, so of course worker's benefits, which cost money, are going to take a hit. I don't get why people are us surprised about this, it was inevitably going to happen with the minimum wage going up almost $3 in one go.[/QUOTE] I don't think people are surprised so much as angry that the owners have decided to keep their money exactly how it is rather than share it with their employees, who are the reason they're able to have that money to begin with. That, with a side of 'they shouldn't have gotten used to it to begin with'. If the owners can't live on their paycut then they should take that up with corporate.

[QUOTE=phygon;53068483]One single day off for the death of an immediate family member. Wow.[/QUOTE] That's how it is where i work, grandma passed away saturday morning and they've told me i can have the funeral off, but that's about it.

[QUOTE=angrytoiletry;53070109]imo fast food shouldnt be a job where you expect all these benefits, if you want decent benefits and a good paying job, get some actual life skills[/QUOTE] Why not? Fast food workers work at least as hard as any other job- in more urban areas their job must be a fucking nightmare. Bottom line is, these jobs need to be done and that means someone needs to do them, these people work hard so getting all uppity and acting like these people are below you and undeserving of workers rights or a decent wage is asinine tbh. The time has passed where unskilled positions can all be filled by teens trying to put themselves through education, tbh I doubt these jobs even pay enough to get you an education any more.

[QUOTE=angrytoiletry;53070109]imo fast food shouldnt be a job where you expect all these benefits, if you want decent benefits and a good paying job, get some actual life skills[/QUOTE] but you have to have money if you want to get "actual life skills" in university, if you define that as life skills when it comes to getting a good paying job At the end of the day fast food is basically a public service like anything else. at the very LEAST they deserve a living wage and reliable insurance that they don't have to be afraid of suddenly getting pulled out from under them just because the owner won't take a pay cut themselves to make sure their employees maintain the same quality of life

[QUOTE=angrytoiletry;53070109]imo fast food shouldnt be a job where you expect all these benefits, if you want decent benefits and a good paying job, get some actual life skills[/QUOTE] Not to mention that "having actual life skills" doesn't guarantee you a job, much less one that provides good pay and decent benefits. I say this as an engineer with a double-bachelors, the first two companies I worked for found every corner they could possibly cut when it came to any sort of benefits or our rights as workers. We worked there because there wasn't anything else, and they cut corners because they knew we had nowhere else to go and could be replaced in a heartbeat. My "life skills" even became a liability when I was between jobs and just looking for any work to help pay the bills. I was constantly being turned away because I was overqualified for most day-jobs, even relatively skilled ones that needed computer usage and mathematics. It took me almost a year of joblessness and several thousand applications to companies nationwide to find the engineering job I have now, which luckily turned out to be the first job I've had in my lifetime that's actually treated me like a human being and actually provided me the benefits I should have received at my previous jobs.

[QUOTE=angrytoiletry;53070109]imo fast food shouldnt be a job where you expect all these benefits, if you want decent benefits and a good paying job, get some actual life skills[/QUOTE] What are "life skills"?

[QUOTE=gokiyono;53070450]What are "life skills"?[/QUOTE] Boot straps. What are boot straps? Connections, money, effort, experience, and power -- all at the same time (note: [I]specifically[/I] not separately - if you're missing even one of those, you don't have boot-straps/life-skills). How do you get boot-straps? By getting boot-straps. Is that a tautology? Yep. Does it matter to people who rant about boot straps that if you don't have them you can't get them without luck? Nope.

[QUOTE=angrytoiletry;53068923] I've never even heard of having a paid break before. [/QUOTE] Perhaps you need more job experience then. Its not that uncommon, at the very least for the shorter breaks. [quote] Literally the only changes here is nothing fucking over employees, the benefits were[B] just so the company would have an edge over other companies[/B]. [/quote] :pwn: How is this not straightforward? If I offer a better working condition then the other guy, then this is a mutual benefit because I get more employees that want to work for me. Removing this benefit means they won't be as happy anymore. Removing benefits is shitty. There's no way to swing that any other way. [quote] The company even offers dental AND health insurance. It's just not completely covered. [/quote] Just like most other unionized places even

I Work at Starbucks, they actually had to make it more clear how vacation days and stuff worked. I have a ludicrous amount of vacation time saved up despite only working there a year and a half, and they're super okay with time off.

[QUOTE=DaCommie1;53070171]It's not going to be a popular opinion, but what did you expect? This wage increase cuts into the owner's paycheque, and while some people think they may make too much, that's the pay grade they've gotten used to living in, and they're not going to want to take a pay cut. Given that Tim's centrally sets food prices, the franchise owners can't raise them to compensate, so of course worker's benefits, which cost money, are going to take a hit. I don't get why people are us surprised about this, it was inevitably going to happen with the minimum wage going up almost $3 in one go.[/QUOTE] Isn't the only reason Ontario's government is massively increasing minimum wage because they privatized the electric sector causing a huge spiraling cost increase to the average user?

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;53070172]I don't think people are surprised so much as angry that the owners have decided to keep their money exactly how it is rather than share it with their employees, who are the reason they're able to have that money to begin with. That, with a side of 'they shouldn't have gotten used to it to begin with'. If the owners can't live on their paycut then they should take that up with corporate.[/QUOTE] We're talking about a single franchisee. It's extremely possible that the mandatory wage increases with no cutbacks on the owners' part will cause them to be unable to keep the business afloat. The minimum wage increase is $2.75 AFAIK. From a glance at Google, most Tim Hortons are open at least ~15 hours a day. I'll make some assumptions and assume that on average they have 4 employees working at any one time. That's an increase of roughly ~$60,000 in expenses solely due to a minimum wage increase. While the workers deserve to be compensated well, as all people do, you can't just pretend that every person who owns a restaurant is swimming in money and is pushing their employees down to prop themselves up. You can't increase the cost of doing business and expect businesses not to find ways to reduce the additional cost. Whether that be firing people or reducing benefits.

[QUOTE=geel9;53073190]We're talking about a single franchisee. It's extremely possible that the mandatory wage increases with no cutbacks on the owners' part will cause them to be unable to keep the business afloat. The minimum wage increase is $2.75 AFAIK. From a glance at Google, most Tim Hortons are open at least ~15 hours a day. I'll make some assumptions and assume that on average they have 4 employees working at any one time. That's an increase of roughly ~$60,000 in expenses solely due to a minimum wage increase. While the workers deserve to be compensated well, as all people do, you can't just pretend that every person who owns a restaurant is swimming in money and is pushing their employees down to prop themselves up. You can't increase the cost of doing business and expect businesses not to find ways to reduce the additional cost. Whether that be firing people or reducing benefits.[/QUOTE] Or maybe the franchise should do something to help for once? Seriously, franchise deals are the worst shit you could sign up for. Just look at Subway and how they gouge their franchisees to the absolute limit.

[QUOTE=StrawberryClock;53071302]Isn't the only reason Ontario's government is massively increasing minimum wage because they privatized the electric sector causing a huge spiraling cost increase to the average user?[/QUOTE] Kathleen Wynne is the most unpopular politician in Canadian history and she did this to try and desparately take some votes from the lower-class away from the NDP so that she doesn't lose to the Conservatives, which she inevitably will.

[QUOTE=_Axel;53073323]Or maybe the franchise should do something to help for once? Seriously, franchise deals are the worst shit you could sign up form Just look at Subway and how they gouge their franchisees to the absolute limit.[/QUOTE] And what do you propose the franchise in question do in lieu of corporate helping?

[QUOTE=geel9;53073493]And what do you propose the franchise in question do in lieu of corporate helping?[/QUOTE] Anything useful to alleviate that monetary strain as opposed to 'fuck y'all; got mine'?

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;53073499]Anything useful to alleviate that monetary strain as opposed to 'fuck y'all; got mine'?[/QUOTE] Sounds like cutting benefits so they don't have to fire people is a way to alleviate that strain.

[QUOTE=geel9;53073517]Sounds like cutting benefits so they don't have to fire people is a way to alleviate that strain.[/QUOTE] Sounds like you've a limited imagination on that subject. They could: * Extend lines of credit to their franchisers for an increased percentage of revenue flowing their way * Offer to send out specialists to help them optimize their business, reducing their overall expenses * Pay to send their franchisers 'to school', in other words Economics 101 and Business Management to help them learn to see and know how to 'manipulate the levers' of their business expenses. * Offer a program that, if applied and accepted to, covers the franchisers' living expenses through a salary for one year to reduce their operating costs while they restructure their local business to fit the new costs they're under. * Provide an 'incentives' program that gives the businesses a substantial bonus kickback should those businesses meet certain 'excellent-rating criteria', to entice and guide their franchisers towards solutions they feel would help them fit into their local markets with their new operating costs. * Reduce their supply-line costs if they're being provided their supplies from corporate or if they're not presently doing so offer such a supply-line in exchange for requiring the franchisers to meet certain requirements and both apply to and be accepted into the supply-line program. * And many, many, other such programs. I don't pretend to know the average operating costs of a Tim Horton's, nor how much this puts 'business owners under water' in their respective districts. But Tim Horton's does - and Tim Horton's could put together any number of programs or incentives or exclusive market-distribution agreements or so on and so forth to alleviate the sudden financial strain on their franchisers.

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;53073536]Sounds like you've a limited imagination on that subject. They could: * Extend lines of credit to their franchisers for an increased percentage of revenue flowing their way * Offer to send out specialists to help them optimize their business, reducing their overall expenses * Pay to send their franchisers 'to school', in other words Economics 101 and Business Management to help them learn to see and know how to 'manipulate the levers' of their business expenses. * Offer a program that, if applied and accepted to, covers the franchisers' living expenses through a salary for one year to reduce their operating costs while they restructure their local business to fit the new costs they're under. * Provide an 'incentives' program that gives the businesses a substantial bonus kickback should those businesses meet certain 'excellent-rating criteria', to entice and guide their franchisers towards solutions they feel would help them fit into their local markets with their new operating costs. * Reduce their supply-line costs if they're being provided their supplies from corporate or if they're not presently doing so offer such a supply-line in exchange for requiring the franchisers to meet certain requirements and both apply to and be accepted into the supply-line program. * And many, many, other such programs.[/QUOTE] You realize we're not talking about corporate Tim Hortons but instead a single franchise right [editline]23rd January 2018[/editline] I specifically asked what the [i]franchisee[/i] should do [i]in lieu of corporate helping.[/i]

[QUOTE=geel9;53073538]You realize we're not talking about corporate Tim Hortons but instead a single franchise right [editline]23rd January 2018[/editline] I specifically asked what the [i]franchisee[/i] should do [i]in lieu of corporate helping.[/i][/QUOTE] You asked what the [I]franchise[/I] should do, not the [I]franchisee[/I]. To quote: "And what do you propose the franchise in question do in lieu of corporate helping?" The franchisee has options of their own. They could seek out new contracts with local suppliers to minimize their supply costs. They could apply for a structured loan that covers their overhead while they restructure their business over the course of a year, including testing new pricing in their market for their product, to stabilize their profits/loss temporarily. They could reduce their own salary, or not take one and live directly off the profits of their business as many business owners do. They could ask their local chamber of commerce for assistance from the city regarding their business - including new supply contracts, possible optimization of their operating costs including in their utilities and so forth, and securing low-interest business loans in exchange for new partnerships or advertisement contracts. They could evaluate their local market and trial new products to attempt to balloon demand and their customer base. They could offer new services that relate to their product, such as home delivery through services, subscriptions/catering for businesses and events, and so on. They could ask their employees for ideas on where to take the business, what services they think should be offered, et cetera. Maybe it's even time to look through your product and cull ones that aren't selling to streamline your business and reduce costs that way. If you're a savvy businessman there's any number of things you could do - and should have been already doing - to adapt to a sudden spike in operating costs; your first response should never be 'well, it's time to cut employee wages and benefits I guess' as that's cutting off your fingers to save your feet - a thing best reserved for 'last resort' measures when all other alternatives fail. If you're not a savvy businessman, the business from which you're franchising off of should be willing to help you become one -- because that means you'll run your store better, which means more profits (and a more stable market overall) for them ultimately. And if you find that you've been effectively priced out of your market? Well, then if you're a savvy businessman you'd already know that it's time to close your business if you can't find a way to pivot to a new market with your existing product and services, reduce your overhead to the point that you're in the green/black again, or introduce new services/products that drive customer interest and expand your customer base enough to put you back in a stable and profitable situation. And to state the obvious: I'm not a business savant myself; I'm sure there's a large number of strategies I haven't mentioned here because I'm not familiar with them. Stubbornness and refusing to adapt to a sea-change in your market, choosing to gouge your employees' wages instead, rarely ends in the owner's favor and is a sign of a bad businessman (and likely an already poorly-run business) to begin with.

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;53073552] The franchisee has options of their own. They could seek out new contracts with local suppliers to minimize their supply costs. [/quote] Corporate provides the supplies at a fixed cost. [quote] They could apply for a structured loan that covers their overhead while they restructure their business over the course of a year, including testing new pricing in their market for their product, to stabilize their profits/loss temporarily. [/quote] They can't control prices, they're a franchisee. The bank might not give them a loan. If they do get a loan, that's an additional monthly payment -- with interest -- that adds onto your already-problematic expenses. It's also at most a temporary band-aid that only delays the issue. [quote] They could reduce their own salary, or not take one and live directly off the profits of their business as many business owners do. [/quote] And if that's not feasible? [quote] They could ask their local chamber of commerce for assistance from the city regarding their business - including new supply contracts, possible optimization of their operating costs including in their utilities and so forth, and securing low-interest business loans in exchange for new partnerships or advertisement contracts. [/quote] Very little of this is within the control of a franchisee. [quote] They could evaluate their local market and trial new products to attempt to balloon demand and their customer base. [/quote] I don't think you understand how franchises work. [quote] They could offer new services that relate to their product, such as home delivery through services, subscriptions/catering for businesses and events, and so on. [/quote] See above. [quote] They could ask their employees for ideas on where to take the business, what services they think should be offered, et cetera. [/quote] See above. [quote] Maybe it's even time to look through your product and cull ones that aren't selling to streamline your business and reduce costs that way. [/quote] See above. [quote] If you're a savvy businessman there's any number of things you could do - and should have been already doing - to adapt to a sudden spike in operating costs; your first response should never be 'well, it's time to cut employee wages and benefits I guess' as that's cutting off your fingers to save your feet - a thing best reserved for 'last resort' measures when all other alternatives fail. [/quote] You speak as if "last resorts" never actually happen. What if this is the last resort? [quote] If you're not a savvy businessman, the business from which you're franchising off of should be willing to help you become one -- because that means you'll run your store better, which means more profits (and a more stable market overall) for them ultimately. [/quote] And if their advice is not helpful or you are already operating at peak efficiency in your market? [quote] And if you find that you've been effectively priced out of your market? Well, then if you're a savvy businessman you'd already know that it's time to close your business if you can't find a way to pivot to a new market with your existing product and services, or the addition of new ones to drive customer interest and expanding your customer base. Stubbornness and refusing to adapt to a sea-change in your market, choosing to gouge your employees' wages instead, rarely ends in the owner's favor and is a sign of a bad businessman (and likely an already poorly-run business) to begin with.[/QUOTE] You're not wrong that businesses sometimes should fail, but then everyone loses their jobs. You can't just kill a bunch of businesses, say "that's just business!" and expect the people who relied on those jobs to just be fine.

[QUOTE=geel9;53073615]Corporate provides the supplies at a fixed cost.[/quote] Which means corporate could provide the supplies at a flex cost. [quote]They can't control prices, they're a franchisee. The bank might not give them a loan. If they do get a loan, that's an additional monthly payment -- with interest -- that adds onto your already-problematic expenses. It's also at most a temporary band-aid that only delays the issue.[/quote] They can ask to control prices for their market; if they can provide the evidence to corporate and corporate signs off on it then: boom, they've controlled their prices. If they can't get a loan, they're already doing a lot of things wrong. Getting the loan is not meant to be a permanent solution - it's meant to protect your business overall and give you time to come up with solutions for your business before reaching for the more drastic and untenable levers. Note how I specifically stated how and why you'd take such a loan, and pointed out that it was temporary, in my given examples. [quote]And if that's not feasible?[/quote] Then they pursue other options. [quote]Very little of this is within the control of a franchisee.[/quote] And yet none of it will 'get you fired' by corporate if you ask to control these things and can convince them to allow you to do so. Stating 'they'll never go for it' and just refusing to do so only shows that you're a lazy businessman and don't actually want to run your business. [quote]I don't think you understand how franchises work.[/quote] I know how business works, which is ultimately how franchises work. Ultimately: How franchises work is at the whims and controls of corporate -- which means how they work now can be changed and have exceptions made to if you're able to provide enough of a case to corporate to justify it. Nothing is ever writ in stone; believing that it is only demonstrates a lack of courage and tenacity in a business owner. Many new products and services have been suggested by franchisers and thusly they were given the green light to trial those products and services and report back. This is a historic thing that has occurred routinely in the food markets -- and if you can make a convincing case for it there's always a chance it'll be accepted. Furthermore, I doubt if you tell corporate "These product lines aren't selling, they're just cutting into my expenses and have no return" they'll tell you "You have to carry them because we say so" rather than "Provide the evidence that shows that these products simply don't sell in your market and we may give you permission to not sell them". There's already plenty of that going around right now with Subway, Wendy's, McDonald's, Sonic, et cetera. Regional market trends [I]are[/I] a thing and if your franchise isn't paying attention to them they're a doomed franchise to begin with. At that point, it might be more prudent to simply offer to 'buy out' your franchise and start a new business using your existing location. If they don't care about regional markets or trends it's likely they'd let that happen because they're already being incredibly stupid. [quote]You speak as if "last resorts" never actually happen. What if this is the last resort?[/quote] It can't be because they haven't tried anything else as they haven't had [I]time[/I] to try hardly any of those suggestions enough to have received enough information to make judgment calls that they are or are not tenable. "We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas" is not a valid course of action to arrive at those levers. [quote]And if their advice is not helpful or you are already operating at peak efficiency in your market?[/quote] Firstly, [I]no business is ever operating at peak efficiency in their market[/I]. That's pure folly because markets, as a rule, are ever-changing. Also, I was more implying that they'd pay for you to get advice for your business in the form of getting an education on running one if you're not already up to snuff. If they have literally nothing to offer you then you've been priced out of your market and it's time to close your business because nothing you can do will ultimately save it - that's how much it's true that they likely have at least [I]something[/I] to offer you. [quote]You're not wrong that businesses sometimes should fail, but then everyone loses their jobs. You can't just kill a bunch of businesses, say "that's just business!" and expect the people who relied on those jobs to just be fine.[/QUOTE] They do fail - but they should never fail for lack of trying.