Wendy’s to install ordering kiosks in 1,000 stores this year - Polidicks

Pure Capitalism does not work, just the same that Pure Socialism doesn't work. I'm all for a mixture of the two, but I'd like to avoid leaning heavier towards the society that was depicted in Atlas Shrugged.

[QUOTE=Biotoxsin;51885493]Excited to hear your brilliant alternative. We will become a post scarcity society eventually. You can't educate everyone to be a skilled engineer, not everyone has the brains to design/program robots.[/QUOTE] even engineering jobs will become obsolete in the future [editline]27th February 2017[/editline] we will get to a point in machine learning that quite literally no job is better done by a human than by a computer, including creative jobs

[QUOTE=StonedPenguin;51885383]Because socialism has worked so well throughout history.[/QUOTE] Everyone knows that Nazi Germany, North Korea, and the Soviet Union are all reviled Socialists because of their belief in a basic income and strong minimum wage.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;51885659]That's a shame, once I went to Wendy's and ordered a Baconator meal and Chili, and the cashier offered to have the chili replace the fries with no extra charge. I doubt a computer would do that.[/QUOTE] Sorry, but that's just a standard option for combos. It's literally only one button press on the screen. When you get a combo, you can replace the fries with a (small) Chili, a "Sour Cream and Chives Baked Potato", or a side salad (or caesar side salad), at no extra cost. For (I believe 40 cents?) you can upgrade it to "Baconator Fries" or the LTO "Bacon Ranch Fries". Though these options depend on which store you go to. Some stores have different things in them. Source: I work at Wendy's. Though as someone who is usually doing things on line (making sandwiches, cooking meat, etc), this wont directly impact me at all (immediately anyways), though it's one of those "they came for x and I didn't speak up, then they came for me and there was nobody to speak up for me" kind of things. Though I have no idea if they will be putting them in the store I work at. At the same time, working a register is basically the easiest, but worst position in the store because, while there are more good apples, the people you need to deal with become quite grating on you, especially when you deal with them on a day to day basis. People treat you like crap because you're a minimum wage fast food worker, act extremely entitled, and wont hesitate to blame you and yell at you for anything wrong with their meals, even though all you did was push some buttons on a screen while everyone else made the meal itself. Or blame you when they forget to ask you for something specific about their meal, or pretty much anything. All it takes is one bad (enough) customer to ruin your day. One way this could be used is to increase productivity and quality of meals overall in the store. They could use the increase in profits to improve and expand stores, decreasing the time it takes for a meal to be made and speeding up service overall. The counter jobs could just be shifted to more back line jobs, adding more sandwich stations or grills. However this is not applicable to all stores. Not all stores need that increase of productivity, simply because they are well staffed as it is and perform within expectations, or the store just doesn't have enough customers consistently to warrant it.

[QUOTE=StonedPenguin;51885569] Capitalism and socialism don't mix. The amount of regulatory action it would take to MAYBE make it work on a large scale would be insane.[/QUOTE] Sorry, but you're wrong. Social Democracies are working well in most places where they are implemented properly and seem to be a good solution for the problems of late stage capitalism. If you can propose a good solution that isn't on the other end of the spectrum I'd love to hear it. r.e the rest of your post, a debunked myth

[QUOTE=StonedPenguin;51885569]In order to pay for it you're going to have to over tax the rich and because the fact that they are rich they can and will simply leave the country shifting the burden to the already strained and shrinking middle class. Expenses would like go up due to the added money in peoples pockets who already have a job. People would flock to places that have it for the free money even more then they already do. The economic divide would only increase at that point. I would even go so far as to say it's only working so well in the small samples it's been tried in it because how corporatized everything has because and how small of a blip it is on anyone's radar. Capitalism and socialism don't mix. The amount of regulatory action it would take to MAYBE make it work on a large scale would be insane.[/QUOTE] That's a myth not based in reality

[QUOTE=StonedPenguin;51885569]Capitalism and socialism don't mix. The amount of regulatory action it would take to MAYBE make it work on a large scale would be insane.[/QUOTE] What is a Mixed Market economy. What is literally all of Europe west of Belarus.

Kiosks here in the UK didn't reduce staff numbers they simply sped up ordering and more staff got moved to serving/production than having to occupy tills. Ordering still takes roughly the same amount of time as before or longer if you want something specific I.e. double cheeseburger with extra cheese and bigmac sauce can't be ordered through the kiosks.

[QUOTE=StonedPenguin;51885383]Because socialism has worked so well throughout history.[/QUOTE] UBI = socialism! u learn something new every day. Milton friedman is basically a marxist as we all know

[QUOTE=StonedPenguin;51885383]Because socialism has worked so well throughout history.[/QUOTE] UBI is not socialism. UBI will be needed in order to continue the circulation of money and prevent a complete and total collapse of the economy. For the love of god, I hope people who think like this pull their heads out of their asses.

[QUOTE=LtKyle2;51889909]UBI is not socialism. UBI will be needed in order to continue the circulation of money and prevent a complete and total collapse of the economy.[/QUOTE] Why don't they just start gmod servers? edit: this thread is disappoint af for real. one could make strong arguments that A. automation isn't going to be as bad as people think (yes, there are good arguments for that) or that B. UBI is a very inefficient form of welfare that could lead to catastrophe if misimplemented, meaning that other forms of welfare ought to be considered instead. But instead we get "ragh. socialism. ragh. capital flight." Not saying I agree with either though but hey, it'd have made this thread informative to read.

The ones at Mcdonalds are great. I don't have to interact with people when I'm drunk ordering 15 mcdoubles at 3am

[QUOTE=Kyle902;51885432]Capitalism strives to maximize profits. Increased automation is a direct consequence of that. That's why I've always believed that strict Capitalism is unsustainable.[/QUOTE] Strict capitalism is unsustainable?... lol wtf? Yes, the purpose of a business is to make money. These kiosks will open up more job positions than they take away. Capitalism is the [U]only[/U] sustainable model because the innovation of new products is done by people who naturally rise to the top. New products and services have a ripple effect on the rest of the economy. These kiosks are good example: You need someone to engineer the kiosk: a combination of mechanical, electrical, and computer engineers will design the physical kiosk, how its electronic components work, and the software it uses to function. Then it will need to be manufactured. The materials from which it will be created have their origins in raw material harvesting. Then it must be assembled. While some parts of the assembly process are automated (which in turn creates even more jobs to develop those machines), they require a human elements to oversee quality control, and do the jobs of which it is still cheaper to hire a human. They will then need to be delivered to each store. This will likely be done by a shipping company (who uses trucks and planes- repeat the same process for which those items are developed) who will likely use a local distribution center (see the people staffing it, more jobs) before they arrive at the fast food joints, where they will have to be set up and calibrated by an installer. [QUOTE=Biotoxsin;51885493]Excited to hear your brilliant alternative. We will become a post scarcity society eventually. You can't educate everyone to be a skilled engineer, not everyone has the brains to design/program robots.[/QUOTE] Sure, but as I've just explained, there are plenty of jobs that don't require college degrees. Blue collar trade jobs come to mind. If you are a good welder or bricklayer, you'll never be hurting for a job. I live in a city which has a military ship yard, and they have tons of welders and they all make very decent money. People have options, not everyone has to be an engineer or rocket scientist (which actually make less than you'd imagine) to earn a decent, middle class salary. e: capitalism isn't perfect, sure, but its the best system we have right now

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;51889916]Why don't they just start gmod servers? edit: this thread is disappoint af for real. one could make strong arguments that A. automation isn't going to be as bad as people think (yes, there are good arguments for that) or that B. UBI is a very inefficient form of welfare that could lead to catastrophe if misimplemented, meaning that other forms of welfare ought to be considered instead. But instead we get "ragh. socialism. ragh. capital flight." Not saying I agree with either though but hey, it'd have made this thread informative to read.[/QUOTE] More inefficient than having over a dozen different welfare programs like Unemployment, disability, social security, food stamps, WIC, and so on instead of having it all centralized?

[QUOTE=UziXxX;51890186]Strict capitalism is unsustainable?... lol wtf? Yes, the purpose of a business is to make money. These kiosks will open up more job positions than they take away. Capitalism is the [U]only[/U] sustainable model because the innovation of new products is done by people who naturally rise to the top. New products and services have a ripple effect on the rest of the economy. These kiosks are good example: You need someone to engineer the kiosk: a combination of mechanical, electrical, and computer engineers will design the physical kiosk, how its electronic components work, and the software it uses to function. Then it will need to be manufactured. The materials from which it will be created have their origins in raw material harvesting. Then it must be assembled. While some parts of the assembly process are automated (which in turn creates even more jobs to develop those machines), they require a human elements to oversee quality control, and do the jobs of which it is still cheaper to hire a human. They will then need to be delivered to each store. This will likely be done by a shipping company (who uses trucks and planes- repeat the same process for which those items are developed) who will likely use a local distribution center (see the people staffing it, more jobs) before they arrive at the fast food joints, where they will have to be set up and calibrated by an installer. Sure, but as I've just explained, there are plenty of jobs that don't require college degrees. Blue collar trade jobs come to mind. If you are a good welder or bricklayer, you'll never be hurting for a job. I live in a city which has a military ship yard, and they have tons of welders and they all make very decent money. People have options, not everyone has to be an engineer or rocket scientist (which actually make less than you'd imagine) to earn a decent, middle class salary. e: capitalism isn't perfect, sure, but its the best system we have right now[/QUOTE] But what happens, for instance, when they start to automate those jobs as well, and put those people out of business? What happens when any menial job you can think of is automated? Unless you have UBI or a way to mass reeducate/reskill the unskilled workers, you will eventually run into the part of capitalism where you have very few people making money and everyone else is unemployed/underemployed leading to even more mass poverty.

[QUOTE=Plattack;51890229]But what happens, for instance, when they start to automate those jobs as well, and put those people out of business? What happens when any menial job you can think of is automated? Unless you have UBI or a way to mass reeducate/reskill the unskilled workers, you will eventually run into the part of capitalism where you have very few people making money and everyone else is unemployed/underemployed leading to even more mass poverty.[/QUOTE] The job market (demand for labor) is always changing and people naturally change with it to fulfill those roles. It's not a process that happens over night so people have time to adapt. A good example is the cyber security and IT industry. The demand for those positions have gone up exponentially in the past 25 years, yet we have people ready and qualified to fill those roles today.

We have two of these in our nearby Wendy's. They don't charge some kind of tax and let you add things on for free. Example, my friends get the 4x4 deal with the double stack. They add lettuce and tomato to the double stack for 0 cost, and it comes out cheaper than when I order at the register. I think it might be missing the dine in tax.

[QUOTE=UziXxX;51890186]Strict capitalism is unsustainable?... lol wtf? Yes, the purpose of a business is to make money. These kiosks will open up more job positions than they take away. Capitalism is the [U]only[/U] sustainable model because the innovation of new products is done by people who naturally rise to the top. New products and services have a ripple effect on the rest of the economy. These kiosks are good example: You need someone to engineer the kiosk: a combination of mechanical, electrical, and computer engineers will design the physical kiosk, how its electronic components work, and the software it uses to function. Then it will need to be manufactured. The materials from which it will be created have their origins in raw material harvesting. Then it must be assembled. While some parts of the assembly process are automated (which in turn creates even more jobs to develop those machines), they require a human elements to oversee quality control, and do the jobs of which it is still cheaper to hire a human. They will then need to be delivered to each store. This will likely be done by a shipping company (who uses trucks and planes- repeat the same process for which those items are developed) who will likely use a local distribution center (see the people staffing it, more jobs) before they arrive at the fast food joints, where they will have to be set up and calibrated by an installer. Sure, but as I've just explained, there are plenty of jobs that don't require college degrees. Blue collar trade jobs come to mind. If you are a good welder or bricklayer, you'll never be hurting for a job. I live in a city which has a military ship yard, and they have tons of welders and they all make very decent money. People have options, not everyone has to be an engineer or rocket scientist (which actually make less than you'd imagine) to earn a decent, middle class salary. e: capitalism isn't perfect, sure, but its the best system we have right now[/QUOTE] Most of the industries you listed about those kiosks already exist, and are on the way to being replaced by automated labor. A handful of engineers can design those kiosks, and machine labor can take care of most of the remainder. Even factory workers that don't have college degrees are already either being assisted by robots or have their jobs replaced by robots. The main takeaway is that unlike what your post implies, there isn't a fundamental law of economics that for every job taken by a robot, even a single one is made for the human it replaces.

[QUOTE=UziXxX;51890249]The job market (demand for labor) is always changing and people naturally change with it to fulfill those roles. It's not a process that happens over night so people have time to adapt. A good example is the cyber security and IT industry. The demand for those positions have gone up exponentially in the past 25 years, yet we have people ready and qualified to fill those roles today.[/QUOTE] Okay but the kiosk only needs to be designed a few times over it's life time. So the amount of engineers it employs is limited. The production lines are mostly automated, and the technology behind those while always in development doesn't require a huge amount of workers. A kiosk replaces say, to be generous, 2 employees only. Even in this case, for the widespread nature of how many jobs are replaced across a huge region, where those jobs are not being replaced by these jobs, is a net loss for the amount of jobs. You haven't in anyway shown how it provides more, just how it provides some, not even as many are lost though. I am not against automation you just shouldn't be dishonest

[QUOTE=UziXxX;51890186]Strict capitalism is unsustainable?... lol wtf? Yes, the purpose of a business is to make money. These kiosks will open up more job positions than they take away. Capitalism is the [U]only[/U] sustainable model because the innovation of new products is done by people who naturally rise to the top. New products and services have a ripple effect on the rest of the economy. These kiosks are good example: You need someone to engineer the kiosk: a combination of mechanical, electrical, and computer engineers will design the physical kiosk, how its electronic components work, and the software it uses to function. Then it will need to be manufactured. The materials from which it will be created have their origins in raw material harvesting. [/quote] Increasingly more in the engineering sector, there is more and more computers and automation. It's also not a sector that is feasible or realistic to everyone to get into, and may not be constant jobs under some circumstances. There is no reason that mining and material manufacturing cannot be completed with much less human involvment. [quote]Then it must be assembled. While some parts of the assembly process are automated (which in turn creates even more jobs to develop those machines), they require a human elements to oversee quality control, and do the jobs of which it is still cheaper to hire a human.[/quote] All of these jobs can and will be highly reduced or limited by automation. Quality control is likely better handled largely by automation to be honest. [quote]They will then need to be delivered to each store. This will likely be done by a shipping company (who uses trucks and planes- repeat the same process for which those items are developed) who will likely use a local distribution center (see the people staffing it, more jobs) before they arrive at the fast food joints, where they will have to be set up and calibrated by an installer.[/quote] The transportation sector is going to be heavily automated as we move into the future, potentially almost exclusively so. [quote]If you are a good welder or bricklayer, you'll never be hurting for a job. I live in a city which has a military ship yard, and they have tons of welders and they all make very decent money.[/QUOTE] [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUgeLtNlE4U[/media]

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51890283]Okay but the kiosk only needs to be designed a few times over it's life time. So the amount of engineers it employs is limited. The production lines are mostly automated, and the technology behind those while always in development doesn't require a huge amount of workers. A kiosk replaces say, to be generous, 2 employees only. Even in this case, for the widespread nature of how many jobs are replaced across a huge region, where those jobs are not being replaced by these jobs, is a net loss for the amount of jobs. You haven't in anyway shown how it provides more, just how it provides some, not even as many are lost though. I am not against automation you just shouldn't be dishonest[/QUOTE] Kiosk requirements: Computer engineer, mechanical engineer, electrical engineer, truck driver, assembly line worker, warehouse distribution worker, installer. Total positions: 7 Human cashier requirements: Human working the cash register Number of positions: 1 6 > 1 Nothing about what I've said is dishonest. You've simply misunderstood what I've said. [QUOTE=Ogopogo;51890318]Increasingly more in the engineering sector, there is more and more computers and automation. It's also not a sector that is feasible or realistic to everyone to get into. There is no reason that mining and material manufacturing cannot be completed with much less human involvment.[/quote] As someone who is 3 months away from having a B.S in mechanical engineering, I can say that yes there is more computers and automation but you still need human engineers to operate and design these systems. Of course its not feasible or realistic for everyone to become an engineer, I'm not sure anyone even suggested that.

[QUOTE=UziXxX;51890329]Kiosk requirements: Computer engineer, mechanical engineer, electrical engineer, truck driver, assembly line worker, warehouse distribution worker, installer. Total positions: 7 Human cashier requirements: Human working the cash register Number of positions: 1 6 > 1 Nothing about what I've said is dishonest. You've simply misunderstood what I've said.[/QUOTE] No I haven't. 6>1 for each kiosk? That's dishonest. A kiosk run through a factory would not be requiring as many engineers as you're replacing people with a kiosk even your own fucking math shows this

I hope they put these in Dunkin Donuts so I don't have to deal with idiots who come through to the front counter

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51890342]No I haven't. 6>1 for each kiosk? That's dishonest. A kiosk run through a factory would not be requiring as many engineers as you're replacing people with a kiosk even your own fucking math shows this[/QUOTE] I'm talking about job positions not the amount of people.

[QUOTE=UziXxX;51890348]I'm talking about job positions not the amount of people.[/QUOTE] Short term contractors as good as that may be are not resale fulfilling that goal in your argument.

[QUOTE=UziXxX;51890329]Kiosk requirements: Computer engineer, mechanical engineer, electrical engineer, truck driver, assembly line worker, warehouse distribution worker, installer. Total positions: 7 Human cashier requirements: Human working the cash register Number of positions: 1 6 > 1 Nothing about what I've said is dishonest. You've simply misunderstood what I've said.[/QUOTE] Let's say you have a computer programmer, a mechanical engineer and electrical engineer doing the design of the kiosk. Those aren't permanent jobs, and would arguably still be involved when you are talking about the current arrangement to a lesser degree. Truck driver, assembly line worker, warehouse distribution worker: no reason why these jobs wouldn't exist under the current circumstance, and are prime candidates for automation. Installer, perhaps the only job which is created, which is again likely a 1 off, with intermittent maintenance.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51890355]Short term contractors as good as that may be are not resale fulfilling that goal in your argument.[/QUOTE] That's not really how that works. The contracts are held by companies which produce goods and services. When the contract is up they don't close their doors and fire all of their workers [QUOTE=Ogopogo;51890363]Let's say you have a computer programmer, a mechanical engineer and electrical engineer doing the design of the kiosk. Those aren't permanent jobs, and would arguably still be involved when you are talking about the current arrangement to a lesser degree. Truck driver, assembly line worker, warehouse distribution worker: no reason why these jobs wouldn't exist under the current circumstance, and are prime candidates for automation. Installer, perhaps the only job which is created, which is again likely a 1 off, with intermittent maintenance.[/QUOTE] If you're an professional engineer, you likely have a permanent job as an engineer as a company. You can be terminated or fired, in which case you will be replaced, but the position which you held will still exist.

[QUOTE=UziXxX;51890329] As someone who is 3 months away from having a B.S in mechanical engineering, I can say that yes there is more computers and automation but you still need human engineers to operate and design these systems. [/QUOTE] As someone who is also in a similar position, yes you do need people involved, however, there will be less and less interaction as we move into the future with the advent of more and more automation.

[QUOTE=UziXxX;51890368]That's not really how that works. The contracts are held by companies which produce goods and services. When the contract is up they don't close their doors and fire all of their workers[/QUOTE] So Wendy's licences this contract out to a design firm. The firm uses in house designers and engineers. They send this off to a factory who then builds it after sourcing parts and resources out. They then send the kiosks to Wendy's using a truck a job up for automation next, and an installer puts it in and returns for maintemce on occasion on contract again. I don't see how you're right

[QUOTE=UziXxX;51890368] If you're an professional engineer, you likely have a permanent job as an engineer as a company. You can be terminated or fired, in which case you will be replaced, but the position which you held will still exist.[/QUOTE] But those engineers are likely to be designing other projects then. In the hypothetical, all the kiosk design could be completed by the same group of engineers, which is a far smaller number of positions than people operating cash registers. It may take a hypothetical 7 people per kiosk, but those 7 people don't have to be different people for each kiosk.