David Bowie turned down Coldplay collaboration: "It's not a very good song, is it?" - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Jacen;49580599]It doesn't matter whether or not objectively bad music is a thing, it's rather poor form to criticize people over their subjective musical tastes. Music Theory isn't the be all end all law of music you think it is anyway. It's simply a set of very good guidelines for producing something that most people would find acceptable. Someone liking something that falls out of those guidelines doesn't make their tastes "poor", just different from yours.[/QUOTE] I don't know about criticizing the individual person, but it's extremely common for people to use an overly broad definition of subjectivity to shield anything they personally like from criticism. I think that's more what his point was as opposed to just cracking jokes about what other people like. music theory isn't the be all end all of anything, that much is true. but it's basically the only publicly accepted way to measure the quality of music. there are inherent qualities and inherent flaws to be found in all art. it's not at all easy to quantify and measure those kinds of things but that doesn't mean it's all ambiguous by default. you can safely say that a recording of someone strumming the same chord 15 times is objectively worse or less valuable than Moonlight Sonata. I'm not aware of any reasonable argument against the idea that one of those things is better than the other, and if you can compare those two objectively then you can do the same with any art. all that being said, I don't think there's ever been a person who had an understanding of an art form that was extensive enough to enable them to make those kind of assessments universally and fairly. personal biases are another thing that severely complicate that process. it's difficult to even make a coherent argument about this because it's something that kind of pushes the limits of the human mind.

Are we really worshipping Bowie so much that statements like these [QUOTE=Rainboo;49573776]To be honest Bowie songs aren't really that great either though. idk unpopular opinion[/QUOTE] Are instantly questioned, sparking debates over 'subjective' and 'objective' musical tastes, when saying this [QUOTE=Dr.Critic;49571057]Ouch Totally believable though, I haven't heard a new Coldplay song that doesn't sound like regurgitated shit for a long time[/QUOTE] Is perfectly fine? Like I know not everybody likes Coldplay, but David Bowie being dead doesn't make his music so legendary that we need to double check if people are serious when they knock it.

[QUOTE=Menien Goneld;49582500]Are we really worshipping Bowie so much that statements like these Are instantly questioned, sparking debates over 'subjective' and 'objective' musical tastes, when saying this Is perfectly fine? Like I know not everybody likes Coldplay, but David Bowie being dead doesn't make his music so legendary that we need to double check if people are serious when they knock it.[/QUOTE] it has a lot more to do with coldplay than it does with bowie, and his death is certainly not a factor at all. I don't know where you got the idea that politely asking someone why they think a musician is bad is an indication of "worship".

[QUOTE=Axznma;49580230]That's nonsense people say so their poor taste can't be criticized. Music has established rules and demonstrable theory that can be applied to the individual and then be objectively bad by those current standards -- that's just the complicated part. When it comes to the science of audio there's very clear lines between good music and bad music that can be drawn down to the mathematical.[/QUOTE] but with that you're more talking about 'pleasing sounding' music, not good music. As a fan of a lot of harsh noise artists who are pretty popular in their field I'd argue that different people listen to music for different things. I personally like a lot of music that makes me feel physically uncomfortable, and I really value atonality

[QUOTE=Bruhmis;49582208]you can safely say that a recording of someone strumming the same chord 15 times is objectively worse or less valuable than Moonlight Sonata.[/QUOTE] Absolutely not. There's a lot of ambient music that focuses on long, drawn-out chords and fulfill a specific purpose. And there's nothing objective about what you're suggesting anyway. [editline]22nd January 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=strayebyrd;49582924]but with that you're more talking about 'pleasing sounding' music, not good music. As a fan of a lot of harsh noise artists who are pretty popular in their field I'd argue that different people listen to music for different things. I personally like a lot of music that makes me feel physically uncomfortable, and I really value atonality[/QUOTE] Math rock also breaks a ton of rules. Noise breaks a lot of rules. You can deviate from the norms just like you can deviate from social norms. People aren't objectively socially worse than others.

[QUOTE=wauterboi;49583457]Absolutely not. There's a lot of ambient music that focuses on long, drawn-out chords and fulfill a specific purpose. And there's nothing objective about what you're suggesting anyway.[/QUOTE] I wonder what a recording of you grasping at straws would sound like

[QUOTE=wauterboi;49583457]Absolutely not. There's a lot of ambient music that focuses on long, drawn-out chords and fulfill a specific purpose. And there's nothing objective about what you're suggesting anyway.[/QUOTE] On top of that, you can't really assign 'value' to music because people have different tastes. I know people who would snub their noses at classical music, and would enjoy something that has a much slower musical progression. [QUOTE=Bruhmis;49584135]I wonder what a recording of you grasping at straws would sound like[/QUOTE] I wonder what a recording of you making an effective point in this argument would sound like.

[QUOTE=Saza;49584197] I wonder what a recording of you making an effective point in this argument would sound like.[/QUOTE] yet you won't produce any argument to refute anything I've said.

[QUOTE=Bruhmis;49584210]yet you won't produce any argument to refute anything I've said.[/QUOTE] k brb [QUOTE=Bruhmis;49576648]it's not a debate about some kind of issue where you can weigh in with facts and statistics etc. it's a matter of someone making an objective statement and someone else conflating that statement with personal taste. I don't know how you've come up with the idea that my argument has anything to do with "that's just your opinion man." the only argument I made is that there is a difference between disliking something and believing something is bad. one is an opinion, and one is a personal taste. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Bruhmis;49576220]he didn't say anything about not liking something. he literally said "bowie's songs aren't good". that's an objective statement. so yeah, you definitely need to justify it if you're just going to blurt that out. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Bruhmis;49576350]using the actual definition of words is dumb, yet it's logical to criticize someone for requesting an explanation after someone comments "X is bad". alright rusty.[/QUOTE] you are literally arguing semantics and you've even used the phrase "one is an opinion, and one is a personal taste" as if the two [I]actually mean anything different.[/I] This is literally your opinion on "what an objective statement is" and you imply your interpretation of his post is the correct and only one. Furthermore, you can still respect talent but think they're bad (and not character wise, like, bad at said talent.). I think Cam Newton's a shitty quarterback. His stats might be fine, but I don't care if he has 100% completion on 400+ yards a game. He's still objectively bad. Because that is an opinion drawn by where you think the line between good and bad is. Now, how about you actually discuss your stance on the Bowie/Coldplay thing instead of being pedantic?

[QUOTE=Bruhmis;49584135]I wonder what a recording of you grasping at straws would sound like[/QUOTE] Instead of considering the idea that it isn't fair to ascribe objectiveness to a subjective medium, you have took it upon yourself to not only show a lack of self-awareness, but also make your own desperate attempt to grasp at straws as you try hard to attack others for sounding objective with their opinions. When presented with the challenge of defending your thought that Moonlight Sonata is better than guitar chords, you say I'm the one grasping at straws. Great stuff, keep digging your own hole!

[QUOTE=Saza;49584253]k brb you are literally arguing semantics and you've even used the phrase "one is an opinion, and one is a personal taste" as if the two [I]actually mean anything different.[/I] This is literally your opinion on "what an objective statement is" and you imply your interpretation of his post is the correct and only one. Furthermore, you can still respect talent but think they're bad (and not character wise, like, bad at said talent.). I think Cam Newton's a shitty quarterback. His stats might be fine, but I don't care if he has 100% completion on 400+ yards a game. He's still objectively bad. Because that is an opinion drawn by where you think the line between good and bad is. Now, how about you actually discuss your stance on the Bowie/Coldplay thing instead of being pedantic?[/QUOTE] I'm not the one who brought up semantics. rusty called me dumb for not having his exact (and incorrect) interpretation of the words that were used so I responded to that and that was the only thing that was even remotely related to semantics. everything else I've said has been about bowie, the quality of music, how it can be measured, how it can be interpreted and what the difference is between a person's fondness for something and their opinion of its quality. personal taste and opinion are not the same thing in the context of what I'm saying. your opinion of a piece of music can be that it's bad or good. if you're going to whine that I'm using semantics then you could at least make your post without squirming away from the definitions that I clearly set in my posts. you're essentially proving that it's necessary for me to go over that if I'm going to say anything on the topic. also I've made several posts in this thread which directly addressed bowie and coldplay, so you're essentially asking me to repeat myself. the only posts I've made that weren't directly on topic were responses to arguments. [editline]22nd January 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=wauterboi;49584272]Instead of considering the idea that it isn't fair to ascribe objectiveness to a subjective medium, you have took it upon yourself to not only show a lack of self-awareness, but also make your own desperate attempt to grasp at straws as you try hard to attack others for sounding objective with their opinions. When presented with the challenge of defending your thought that Moonlight Sonata is better than guitar chords, you say I'm the one grasping at straws. Great stuff, keep digging your own hole![/QUOTE] how can I defend anything when your response to me was a complete dodge of everything I said. ambient music with sustained chords has nothing to do with someone punching a guitar 15 times. I haven't attacked anybody. identifying weak arguments is not an attack. you are grasping at straws. I gave an example of something that would be worse than moonlight sonata, then you pulled something completely different out of nowhere and said "see, this is why you're wrong." that is absolutely what grasping at straws is.

[QUOTE=Bruhmis;49582208]you can safely say that a recording of someone strumming the same chord 15 times is objectively worse or less valuable than Moonlight Sonata. I'm not aware of any reasonable argument against the idea that one of those things is better than the other, and if you can compare those two objectively then you can do the same with any art..[/QUOTE] Even using Music Theory as an objective rule set, one of those would still not be objectively worse than the other since strumming a chord repeatedly would still fit fine inside those rules. Not to mention there are countless strumming patterns that could be used to help keep it interesting. The only objective thing you could say about it is that something like Moonlight Sonata requires more technical skill to write and perform, which isn't a good indicator of it being "good" or "bad".

[QUOTE=Bruhmis;49584335]I'm not the one who brought up semantics. rusty called me dumb for not having his exact (and incorrect) interpretation of the words that were used so I responded to that and that was the only thing that was even remotely related to semantics. everything else I've said has been about bowie, the quality of music, how it can be measured, how it can be interpreted and what the difference is between a person's fondness for something and their opinion of its quality. personal taste and opinion are not the same thing in the context of what I'm saying. your opinion of a piece of music can be that it's bad or good. if you're going to whine that I'm using semantics then you could at least make your post without squirming away from the definitions that I clearly set in my posts. you're essentially proving that it's necessary for me to go over that if I'm going to say anything on the topic. also I've made several posts in this thread which directly addressed bowie and coldplay, so you're essentially asking me to repeat myself. the only posts I've made that weren't directly on topic were responses to arguments. [editline]22nd January 2016[/editline] how can I defend anything when your response to me was a complete dodge of everything I said. ambient music with sustained chords has nothing to do with someone punching a guitar 15 times. I haven't attacked anybody. identifying weak arguments is not an attack. you are grasping at straws. I gave an example of something that would be worse than moonlight sonata, then you pulled something completely different out of nowhere and said "see, this is why you're wrong." that is absolutely what grasping at straws is.[/QUOTE] Explain why Moonlight Sonata is inherently better than a chord repeated fifteen times, then. If you really want to take the argument down that road, find objective reasons for why Moonlight Sonata is very specifically better than that repetition without resorting to subjective behavior. Your entire argument is one giant grasp for straws because you can't do that. You really can't. I mean, if we're going to be clear, I would rather listen to Moonlight Sonata. I also think that in terms of technique, Moonlight Sonata has a respectable craft that a lot of people aspire to. Moonlight Sonata rules. But that's [I]subjective[/I]. Even in comparison to anything, I can't say there's an objective comparison that can be made because not everyone is trying to accomplish the same things with the same ruleset (if any) for the same audience. Also, in order to be objective about music, there has to be a universally accepted standard for something like that, and even then it's worthless because I would disagree with all of those rules. I was working on a song a while ago and while I respect the help that was trying to be given for improving it, I didn't enjoy the specific criticism that it didn't "meet" the standards of music theory. Theory? In my music? Get outta here. There's nothing objective about music - there's no one to say you're straight up wrong about producing art. And the irony is you're trying to get uppity about this guy saying "David Bowie is bad" while somehow finding it within yourself to make an objective claim about a piece of music without backing it up with anything. It's one gigantic contradiction. If you're making the claim that other people need to back up their opinions, maybe you should as well. Or, alternatively, drop the whole "objective act" and stop playing semantics with language.

[QUOTE=Bruhmis;49584335]I'm not the one who brought up semantics. rusty called me dumb for not having his exact (and incorrect) interpretation of the words that were used so I responded to that and that was the only thing that was even remotely related to semantics. everything else I've said has been about bowie, the quality of music, how it can be measured, how it can be interpreted and what the difference is between a person's fondness for something and their opinion of its quality. personal taste and opinion are not the same thing in the context of what I'm saying. your opinion of a piece of music can be that it's bad or good. if you're going to whine that I'm using semantics then you could at least make your post without squirming away from the definitions that I clearly set in my posts. you're essentially proving that it's necessary for me to go over that if I'm going to say anything on the topic. also I've made several posts in this thread which directly addressed bowie and coldplay, so you're essentially asking me to repeat myself. the only posts I've made that weren't directly on topic were responses to arguments. [editline]22nd January 2016[/editline] how can I defend anything when your response to me was a complete dodge of everything I said. ambient music with sustained chords has nothing to do with someone punching a guitar 15 times. I haven't attacked anybody. identifying weak arguments is not an attack. you are grasping at straws. I gave an example of something that would be worse than moonlight sonata, then you pulled something completely different out of nowhere and said "see, this is why you're wrong." that is absolutely what grasping at straws is.[/QUOTE] okay well this is as close to I can get to what you're talking about [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYOr8TlnqsY[/media] Disintegration loops is literally the same loop played over and over on an increasingly deteriorating tape. one of Basinski's key techniques is the use of repetitive looping. I find this piece of music affects me more than Moonlight Sonata. I think it is a better piece of music