[QUOTE=DogGunn;30109083]Impressive that you manage to take something I said completely out of context. I didn't justify, I didn't anything. I only pointed out when is war fair?
Fucking idiots.[/QUOTE]
Instant replay please:
[QUOTE=koekje4life V2;30108230]Hamas fires rockets which kill about 10 people a year, Israel retaliates with heavy artillery killing thousands every year. How is this fair?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=DogGunn;30108249]When is war ever fair?[/QUOTE]
You pointed that out to justify. Don't act like you didn't, because that's being intellectually dishonest.
how is the idea that war is inherently unfair a justification for warlike acts?
[QUOTE=Kai-ryuu;30108826]Hamas DOES have some parts of its organization that isn't violent towards Israel. Their social welfare branch is meant as being the non-extremest wing. They are known to have built some schools and hospitals for Palestinian civilians in some areas and in Gaza. Now, I can't say without having any doubt that this is 100% "for the people". There are people in the organization that will and have taken advantage of this and it is sad. It's even sadder that you don't see anything about this happening in the news but only about the extremists who march out onto the streets decked in their Hamas garb and shout anti-semitic rhetoric. This isn't meant to argue against you, it's just to point out that not ALL of Hamas are extremists who want to eradicate Israel but again, the chances that those areas of the organization that DON'T support attacking/eradicating Israel having members who are a part of the armed resistance is fairly high. The same thing could be said for the IDF. They have members that don't necessarily want to all wipe out the Palestinians but there are some that do and thanks to western media bias, you only see the ones that don't want to see Palestine gone so that they can compare it to those evil terrorist Arabs over the wall in Gaza.[/QUOTE]
yea, hamas has done good stuff but the organization as a whole has the goal of eradicating israel and their paramilitary groups kill indiscriminately
i mean there is a reason they were voted in, they provide social services and are in general less corrupt than other palestinian parties
until they get their shit together and stop killing innocent people all the time they are terrorists though
[QUOTE=Florence;30108920]^ Ditto.
Which is why we should kill as much people as possible in any given situation. Who cares anyways? Let's just go fucking Rambo on this bitch! Let up the kill ratios fella. 1 Israeli per 2k Palestinians. Gogogogo we can do it.
Srsly, if that's your big justification for your little Apartheid state and its crimes&theft - that war isn't fair - then you Israel Apologists are more desperate that I ever believed. You realize more and more people cant' take your crocodile tears anymore and won't buy the victim game.[/QUOTE]
it doesnt make it right that they are doing what they are doing
it doesnt justify the fact at all
but comparably, israel is pretty much on par with the middle east as far as persecution goes and they arent even as bad as the us and uk in some ways
hell, the us has been sanctioning this shit, that instantly put the us at a comparable level to israel
i personally am not saying israel isnt a bad guy, but its weird to get so worked up over israel when practically the rest of the world does the same sort of shit
If I may interrupt, from a regular civilian standpoint, the idea of Hamas firing cheaply made rockets into Israel and militarizing itself may seem unproductive, but from a diplomatic standpoint, it works. Hamas, like the PLO, caught the eyes of many, not because of peaceful intentions, but for its strength and aggression towards Israel. The rockets it fires are meant to cause low casualties, and at most, property damage. The rockets aren't meant to attack Israel, but to maintain presence. It may sound ridiculous to a lot, and unproductive from many standpoints, but they didn't get as much power because they got lucky, Hamas is pretty damn efficient and gets shit done when it can. Disarming Hamas may seem like an ideal solution, but in reality, it can't work. Even with open borders and stronger support from the reformed Arab Revolutions, Hamas still needs to be armed until it is safe, which is far from now. Don't get me wrong, I am looking forward to a day when there will be less guns in the area.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;30108356]japan bombs a harbor and kills a couple thousand people and sinks some ships
us retaliates with a campaign of indiscriminate firebombing and an atomic bomb that still causes birth defects and death over 60 years later
how is this fair[/QUOTE]
God damnit you dense fuck we are talking about a fucking military bombing undefended towns filled with civilians because some militant shot a firework at their backyard. You don't and can't compare a military conflict with this.
[QUOTE=Raiskauskone V2;30109989]God damnit you dense fuck we are talking about a fucking military bombing undefended towns filled with civilians because some militant shot a firework at their backyard. You don't and can't compare a military conflict with this.[/QUOTE]
[img]http://www.real-debt-elimination.com/images/Dresden_bodies.jpg[/img]
yup yup this is a military action all these people were guilty and deserved to be burnt alive
[editline]29th May 2011[/editline]
dont get confused by the civilian clothing they were obviously spies
[editline]29th May 2011[/editline]
or maybe your the dense fuck and need to learn some shit before blathering on like an idiot
Are you seriously that stupid or just trolling here, you are posting pictures of an holocaust committed by the nazis while we are talking about Israel vs Palestina & Hamas.
[editline]29th May 2011[/editline]
I wish there was a program especially designed for you people that reads aloud on your computer what you just wrote, it would prevent posts like that by people like you.
[editline]29th May 2011[/editline]
good job on the Godwin's law by the way
[QUOTE=Raiskauskone V2;30110104]Are you seriously that stupid or just trolling here, you are posting pictures of an holocaust committed by the nazis while we are talking about Israel vs Palestina & Hamas.[/QUOTE]
do you know anything about anything at all?
this is fucking dresden, where the united fucking states firebombed innocent civilians for the SOLE PURPOSE of lowering german morale
they didnt target military, they targeted innocent people
how is this different from what the israelis are doing? in fact this is far worse
learn some shit, seriously
Okay, just to get on the same book here; we are both saying that israel is doing very, very wrong things to Palestina and it's people?
read the rest of my posts in the thread
[quote]
[LIST]
[*][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas"]Hamas[/URL] denounced the killing of bin Laden: "We condemn the assassination and the killing of an 'Arab holy warrior'. We regard this as a continuation of the American policy based on oppression and the shedding of Muslim and Arab blood."[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactions_to_the_death_of_Osama_bin_Laden#cite_note-latimes.com-97"][98][/URL] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismail_Haniya"]Ismail Haniya[/URL], a senior political leader of Hamas and one of two disputed Prime Ministers of the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_National_Authority"]Palestinian National Authority[/URL], said: "We condemn any killing of a holy warrior or of a Muslim and Arab person and we ask Allah to bestow his mercy upon him." Ismail al-Ashqar, a Hamas lawmaker, called it "state terrorism that America carries out against Muslims".[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactions_to_the_death_of_Osama_bin_Laden#cite_note-nytimes1-98"][99][/URL]
[/LIST]
[/quote]
HAMAS IS TOTALLY BENIGN GUYS!
[QUOTE=Florence;30109316]Instant replay please:
You pointed that out to justify. Don't act like you didn't, because that's being intellectually dishonest.[/QUOTE]
How did I justify Israel's actions? Are you thick?
The question was how is this fair - and I stated war is never fair.
If you want to somehow interpret that as justification for Israel's actions, then be my guest, but you're only fooling yourself into that terrible logic.
[QUOTE=Nahyan;30109957]The rockets it fires are meant to cause low casualties, and at most, property damage.[/QUOTE]
Bullshit, if they had bigger things to throw at Israel, they would have thrown it. My proof?
They used to fire Quassam 1 rockets and mortars at Israel (at first). The Qassam 1 can carry around 0.5 kilograms of explosives.
But after a while, they upgraded their versions and developed the Qassam 2 and the Qassam 3, the Qassam 3 is able to fly further and has an increased payload of about 10 kg of explosives.
Starting from 2007, they started using BM-21 Grad, which they modify to fire from stands instead of trucks. These rockets are military grade rockets, used by the Russian military, and they are in no way fire crackers.
Do you know how many bomb shelters there are in every Israeli city? There is one in almost every street. And starting from 1985, every house has to have a safe room, made out of reinforced concrete. In Sderot, one of the first cities to get shot at, there are bomb shelters and concrete shelters every 20 meters. I am not kidding. Even most of the bus stops are small bomb shelters.
And it never crosses anyones mind, that this might just be the reason Israeli casualties have been low across the years?
[QUOTE=Glorbo;30115914]Bullshit, if they had bigger things to throw at Israel, they would have thrown it. My proof?
They used to fire Quassam 1 rockets and mortars at Israel (at first). The Qassam 1 can carry around 0.5 kilograms of explosives.
But after a while, they upgraded their versions and developed the Qassam 2 and the Qassam 3, the Qassam 3 is able to fly further and has an increased payload of about 10 kg of explosives.
Starting from 2007, they started using BM-21 Grad, which they modify to fire from stands instead of trucks. These rockets are military grade rockets, used by the Russian military, and they are in no way fire crackers.
Do you know how many bomb shelters there are in every Israeli city? There is one in almost every street. And starting from 1985, every house has to have a safe room, made out of reinforced concrete. In Sderot, one of the first cities to get shot at, there are bomb shelters and concrete shelters every 20 meters. I am not kidding. Even most of the bus stops are small bomb shelters.
And it never crosses anyones mind, that this might just be the reason Israeli casualties have been low across the years?[/QUOTE]
First off, even your own government acknowledges the rockets aren't even used as as main weapon.
Second, the explosive pay load is due to them buying new types of TnT
I severely doubt the ratio of 15000 Palestinians killed for 22 Israelis would be NEARLY as drastic if the bomb shelters didn't exist. They ARE fire crackers. The only people killed are the ones unfortunate enough to be almost directly near it. Israeli's use cluster bombs, white prosperous and indiscriminate artillery shelling. Things that murder Palestinians in scores.
[editline]29th May 2011[/editline]
And here's what I find funny. When Hamas uses a new rocket, you think it's absolutely horrible, yet when the US gives Israel scores of new and brutal weapons which are used to kill Palestinians en masse, you think it's a just victory. So it's obvious you feel your killing of civilians is somehow better then them.
[QUOTE=amute;30122711]
And here's what I find funny. When Hamas uses a new rocket, you think it's absolutely horrible, yet when the US gives Israel scores of new and brutal weapons which are used to kill Palestinians en masse, you think it's a just victory. So it's obvious you feel your killing of civilians is somehow better then them.[/QUOTE]
Fuck yeah I do. If I cut a tree down and it accidentally lands on you and kills you it won't be nearly the same as me coming to your house and starting to shoot at it.
You would be surprised how hard it is to aim a gun when it's much, much bigger than the enemy you are facing. Israel has the bigger gun, and the bigger it is, the more it is likely to malfunction.
Hamas has the advantage of being the "underdog" so nobody actually gives a hoot when they do morally questionable shit, after all, they HAVE to do it. But what does Israel have to gain from it? What makes you think they want to kill civilians on purpose?
I'll quote a member of this forum-
"There is one very simple constant for the majority of nations on the planet: They are all exactly like individual humans at their most primitive level, self serving. Which sounds awful, but it's really just the truth of the matter. It has a rather distinct upside though, because they are self serving, they are generally easy to predict or understand.
Denial of White Phosphorus plays directly into this theory. Deny it in order to fend off the negative press. It's a self serving tactic.
So when you have actions like an assault on a UN run school, you have to apply the same logic you do everywhere else. WHY. What benefit do they gain here?
The only way for this to logically work out is for Israel to not have been lying about the origin of the rockets.
Like Israel or not, they aren't stupid. They know precisely what happens when you attack a school. The only way such an assault benefits them is if they are legitimately pursuing an enemy force.
However the UN, if they wish to remain in the strip, needs to deny the presence of all terrorist activity on their grounds. The UN is made up of people, and as such is subject to the exact same self serving principle as nations. Whether they know about it or not, serving as a launch site looks extremely bad for them. The people involved could be fired and the school may be shut down. The self serving action here is to deny all involvement.
Now is it possible that Israel is lying? Of course. There may be cards at play we don't see. But for the moment, with the information we've been provided, Occam's razor would push us towards Israel telling the truth about the rocket launch sites."
Rockets started coming out of Gaza starting from the year 2000. In 2005 Israel pulled out all of the settlements it had in the Gaza strip. Rockets continued.
[QUOTE=Raiskauskone V2;30110495]Okay, just to get on the same book here; we are both saying that israel is doing very, very wrong things to Palestina and it's people?[/QUOTE]
Yes you both are on the same boat.
Why is the middle east a clusterfuck of aggression and rage.
There must be some PCP in the sand or something.
Seriously, everything that goes there turns into some violent monster no matter how innocent they used to be.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;30110140]do you know anything about anything at all?
this is fucking dresden, where the united fucking states firebombed innocent civilians for the SOLE PURPOSE of lowering german morale
they didnt target military, they targeted innocent people[/quote]
That's only partially true, Dresden had the most factories of any city within 200 miles, and major railway lines.
There is only one way to end a war, destroy the enemy's will to fight.
There is something to keep in mind about the civilian bombing, every major country in WWII deliberately bombed civilian areas. The Germans, Russians, British, Americans, Canadians, Japanese (the Chinese were massacred they didn't even have anti-aircraft it was horrible) and French. Something that was encouraged for victory in the mid-20th century is now frowned upon, as it should be.
[QUOTE=Kai-ryuu;30101650]Sorry, when I looked at the Huffington Post story it said it was released on the 28th which is today.[/QUOTE]
My thread was when Egypt announced they would open the border on Saturday, yours is they have actually opened it so it's news!
[QUOTE=yaik9a;30103141]No they should give them weapons to fight the evil oppressive Israelis![/QUOTE]
I was being sarcastic guys.
[QUOTE=yaik9a;30135076]I was being sarcastic guys.[/QUOTE]
damnit man i actually thought you were serious
[QUOTE=yawmwen;30135137]damnit man i actually thought you were serious[/QUOTE]
Considering his support for Gaddafi it wouldn't be too much of a stretch.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;30135276]Considering his support for Gaddafi it wouldn't be too much of a stretch.[/QUOTE]
oh yea this is that guy huh
the one man on earth who actually agrees with gaddafi
[QUOTE=yawmwen;30108356]japan bombs a harbor and kills a couple thousand people and sinks some ships
us retaliates with a campaign of indiscriminate firebombing and an atomic bomb that still causes birth defects and death over 60 years later
how is this fair[/QUOTE]
China sits around being its own country and Japan massacres millions of Chinese people. How is this fair?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;30108167]its because israel has been a huge dick since before i was born
they constantly occupy and settle in palestinian land, persecute palestinian people, and recently blockaded gaza not allowing even food or medicine to get through, pretty much starving the people and keeping gaza as close to collapse as possible[/quote]
Nope.jpg
[QUOTE=yawmwen;30135345]oh yea this is that guy huh
the one man on earth who actually agrees with gaddafi[/QUOTE]
I guess I built up a reputation around here.
[QUOTE=captainHOE;30137529]Nope.jpg[/QUOTE]
You may rate dumb all you want, but claims of "persecution", "starvation" etc' are outright false.
[QUOTE=captainHOE;30139210]You may rate dumb all you want, but claims of "persecution", "starvation" etc' are outright false.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/israel-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-2010[/url]
sure thing hun
[quote]Gaza blockade – humanitarian crisis
The continuing Israeli military blockade of Gaza, in force since June 2007, deepened the ongoing humanitarian crisis. Mass unemployment, extreme poverty, food insecurity and food price rises caused by shortages left four in five Gazans dependent on humanitarian aid. The scope of the blockade and statements made by Israeli officials about its purpose showed that it was being imposed as a form of collective punishment of Gazans, a flagrant violation of international law.
Operation “Cast Lead” pushed the crisis to catastrophic levels. After it concluded, the blockade hampered or prevented reconstruction efforts. As a result, there was a further deterioration of water and sanitation services; more power cuts, causing severe problems in the summer heat and for public and health institutions; greater overcrowding in schools; more challenges for an already overstretched health system struggling with damaged facilities and higher demand; and little or no chance of economic recovery. Israel continued to deny farmers access to their land within 500m of the Gaza-Israel border, and to ban fishing further than three nautical miles from the shore.
Among those trapped in Gaza were people with serious illnesses who needed medical care outside Gaza, and students and workers needing to travel to take up university places or jobs in the West Bank or abroad.
Samir al-Nadim died on 1 November after his exit from Gaza for a heart operation was delayed by 22 days. By the time the Israeli authorities allowed him to leave on 29 October, he was unconscious and on a respirator. He died of heart failure in a hospital in Nablus in the West Bank.[/quote]
[quote]Killings of unarmed Palestinian civilians
Some 450 Palestinians were killed and thousands of others were injured by Israeli forces in air strikes and other attacks, most of them in the first half of the year in the Gaza Strip. Up to half of those killed were civilians, including some 70 children. The rest were armed group members killed in armed confrontations or in targeted air strikes. Hundreds of other Palestinian civilians were killed and injured in the last five days of the year in the Israeli military offensive, some as a result of direct attacks on civilians or civilian buildings, others in indiscriminate and disproportionate attacks.
Many killings of Palestinian civilians in the first half of the year and during the December military offensive were in response to indiscriminate rocket and mortar attacks launched by Palestinian armed groups from the Gaza Strip against nearby Israeli towns and villages and against Israeli army positions along the perimeter of the Gaza Strip. Six Israeli civilians and several soldiers were killed in such attacks and 14 other Israeli civilians, including four 17-year-olds, were killed in shooting and other attacks by Palestinians in Jerusalem and elsewhere in the country.
During a four-day military incursion into the Gaza Strip in late February Israeli forces killed more than 100 Palestinians, about half of whom were civilians not involved in fighting, including some 25 children. Among the victims were 16-year-old Jackline Abu Shbak and her 15-year-old brother Iyad. They were both shot dead with a single bullet to the head in front of their mother and younger siblings, in their home north of Gaza City on 29 February. The shots were fired from a house which had been taken over by Israeli soldiers opposite the children’s home.
On 16 April, Israeli forces killed 15 Palestinian civilians, including 10 children aged between 13 and 17 and a journalist, in three separate attacks, which also injured dozens of other civilians, in the Jouhr al-Dik area in the south-east of the Gaza Strip. First, Israeli tank fire killed six children – ‘Abdullah Maher Abu Khalil, Tareq Farid Abu Taqiyah, Islam Hussam al-‘Issawi, Talha Hani Abu ‘Ali, Bayan Sameer al-Khaldi and Mohammed al-‘Assar. Then, Israeli soldiers in a tank fired a flechette shell at Fadel Shana’, a Reuters cameraman, killing him, as he was filming the tank. A further tank shell fired immediately after killed two more children, Ahmad ‘Aref Frajallah and Ghassan Khaled Abu ‘Ateiwi, and injured five others. Two of them, Ahmad 'Abd al-Majid al-Najjar and Bilal Sa'id 'Ali al-Dhini, died three days later.[/quote]
2009 report of Gaza Blockade - bit more expansive:
[quote]The continuing Israeli military blockade of the Gaza Strip exacerbated an already dire humanitarian situation, health and sanitation problems, poverty and malnutrition for the 1.5 million residents. The Israeli military offensive launched in late December brought conditions to the brink of human catastrophe. Even before it began, the local economy was paralysed by the lack of imports and a ban on exports. Shortages of most basic necessities fuelled price increases, causing some 80 per cent of the population to become dependent on international assistance. UN and other aid and humanitarian organizations faced additional restrictions which hindered their ability to provide assistance and services to Gaza’s people and increased their operational costs. UN reconstruction projects to provide housing for families whose homes had been destroyed by the Israeli army in previous years were suspended due to a lack of construction material. Seriously ill patients in need of medical care not available in Gaza and hundreds of students and workers wishing to study or travel to jobs abroad were among those trapped in Gaza by the blockade; only relatively few were allowed to leave the area by the Israeli authorities. Several patients who were denied passage out of Gaza later died.
Mohammed Abu ‘Amro, a 58-year-old cancer patient, died in October. He had sought a permit to leave Gaza since March. The permit was denied on unspecified “security grounds” but was finally granted a week after his death.
Karima Abu Dalal, a 34-year-old mother of five who suffered from Hodgkin’s lymphoma, died in November due to lack of treatment. The Israeli authorities had repeatedly refused her a permit to travel to the hospital in Nablus, in the West Bank, since November 2007.
In the West Bank, some 600 Israeli military checkpoints and barriers restricted the movement of Palestinians, hindered their access to workplaces, education and health facilities and other services. The Israeli army continued its construction of a 700km fence/wall, mostly within the territory of the West Bank. This separated tens of thousands of Palestinian farmers from their land; they were required to obtain permits to access their land but these were frequently denied.
Palestinians were also denied access to large areas of the West Bank close to Israeli settlements established and maintained in breach of international law, and were barred from or had only restricted access to more than 300km of roads used by Israeli settlers.
In February, Fawziyah al-Dark, aged 66, was denied passage through an Israeli military checkpoint to access Tulkarem hospital after suffering a heart attack. She died shortly after.
In September, Israeli soldiers refused to allow Naheel Abu Rideh to pass through the Huwara checkpoint and travel to Nablus hospital although she was in labour. She gave birth in her husband’s car at the checkpoint; her baby boy died.[/quote]
[QUOTE=BagMinge104;30139549][url]http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/israel-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-2010[/url]
sure thing hun[/QUOTE]
Alright, I admit tha-... uh... wait, you didn't actually prove your point.
[QUOTE=captainHOE;30139602]Alright, I admit tha-... uh... wait, you didn't actually prove your point.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=captainHOE;30139210]You may rate dumb all you want, but claims of "persecution", "starvation" etc' are outright false.[/QUOTE]
[quote]The continuing Israeli military blockade of the Gaza Strip exacerbated an already dire humanitarian situation, health and sanitation problems, poverty and malnutrition for the 1.5 million residents. The Israeli military offensive launched in late December brought conditions to the brink of human catastrophe. Even before it began, the local economy was paralysed by the lack of imports and a ban on exports. Shortages of most basic necessities fuelled price increases, causing some 80 per cent of the population to become dependent on international assistance. UN and other aid and humanitarian organizations faced additional restrictions which hindered their ability to provide assistance and services to Gaza’s people and increased their operational costs. UN reconstruction projects to provide housing for families whose homes had been destroyed by the Israeli army in previous years were suspended due to a lack of construction material. Seriously ill patients in need of medical care not available in Gaza and hundreds of students and workers wishing to study or travel to jobs abroad were among those trapped in Gaza by the blockade; only relatively few were allowed to leave the area by the Israeli authorities. Several patients who were denied passage out of Gaza later died.
Mohammed Abu ‘Amro, a 58-year-old cancer patient, died in October. He had sought a permit to leave Gaza since March. The permit was denied on unspecified “security grounds” but was finally granted a week after his death.
Karima Abu Dalal, a 34-year-old mother of five who suffered from Hodgkin’s lymphoma, died in November due to lack of treatment. The Israeli authorities had repeatedly refused her a permit to travel to the hospital in Nablus, in the West Bank, since November 2007.
In the West Bank, some 600 Israeli military checkpoints and barriers restricted the movement of Palestinians, hindered their access to workplaces, education and health facilities and other services. The Israeli army continued its construction of a 700km fence/wall, mostly within the territory of the West Bank. This separated tens of thousands of Palestinian farmers from their land; they were required to obtain permits to access their land but these were frequently denied.
Palestinians were also denied access to large areas of the West Bank close to Israeli settlements established and maintained in breach of international law, and were barred from or had only restricted access to more than 300km of roads used by Israeli settlers.
In February, Fawziyah al-Dark, aged 66, was denied passage through an Israeli military checkpoint to access Tulkarem hospital after suffering a heart attack. She died shortly after.
In September, Israeli soldiers refused to allow Naheel Abu Rideh to pass through the Huwara checkpoint and travel to Nablus hospital although she was in labour. She gave birth in her husband’s car at the checkpoint; her baby boy died.[/quote]
So yeah, I guess this whole "starvation at the hands of the Israeli military" thing must be a fairy tale, huh?
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