Valve pulls Hatred from Greenlight due to disagreeing with the subject matter of the game.
576 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Aman;46720713]Since when does art get banned cause "I'm offended!"?[/QUOTE]
Hatred isn't banned, it's just not going to be sold on Steam.
[QUOTE=Aman;46720713]Since when does art get banned cause "I'm offended!"?[/QUOTE]Not in this case.
[QUOTE=Aman;46720679]You guys with the moralist argues are dumb it just boils down to a ficitious made up scenario of pixels.
"but you can kill innocent civilians!"
They are neither innocent or civilians, they are pixels in a video game, a fictional world separate from the real world.[/QUOTE]
You know very well it isn't that simple.
It's all about context.
[QUOTE=Rocâ„¢;46720745]You know very well it isn't that simple.
It's all about context.[/QUOTE]
I don't care or cry over dead pixel civilians from the result of pixel rampages. Am I heartless?
[QUOTE=Thlis;46720233]Why is GTA fine but this isn't?
Why is Manhunt fine but this isn't?
Why is Postal fine but this isn't?
If we are going to complain about the execution moves, why is Sleeping Dogs fine but this isn't?
Hell, Modern Warfare 2 literally has a level simulating a mass killing.[/QUOTE]
The general gist of it is that in GTA, the murder of civilians isn't the main point of the game. You're allowed to do it, and most people that buy the game do so to specifically wreak havoc, but there's a story that doesn't involve it.
In Manhunt, the plot of the game puts you in a disturbing situation where it's kill or be killed. The game is intended to be disturbing, but it justifies itself with its story and mechanics.
In Postal? Well, I can't speak for Postal 1. It seems like it's just as vapid as Hatred. At the very least though, it portrays itself as intentionally disturbing because you're playing a mentally ill person going postal.
In Modern Warfare 2, the level "No Russian" is intended to paint the bad guys as bad. There's some intentional shit-stirring mixed in there for sure, but the level is included to paint the villains as bad people. You, the player, can choose to take part in the killing of civilians, but you don't have to. In that level you play as an undercover CIA agent that's infiltrated the terrorist's squad, and you don't have to do anything. There's no achievements for killing civilians, no encouragement to do so, no incentive to do it.
In Hatred, your name is Knot Himportant, and what is important is what you're going to do. Your genocide crusade begins here, yadda yadda, go kill some civilians until the cops kill you and that's it. By the way, we didn't obtain permission from Epic Games or the ESRB to use their logos in our trailer and it's very likely that our game doesn't actually exist at all.
You can say that because Hatred isn't out yet, that it's not fair to say with any sort of finality that the violence it depicts is without any sort of message and artistic merit. You'd be right. But, based on the one trailer we've seen and from what we've heard from its developers, it's not unreasonable to come to the conclusion that it's entirely tasteless and probably made just to get people talking about it so that the devs can make a quick bucks when it does come out.
[QUOTE=Duskin;46720699]Have you even seen most slasher flicks?[/QUOTE]
Slasher flicks are, for the most part, more about the suspense felt on the part of the audience members and the adrenaline rush you get when you watch characters in dangerous situations. You want the victims to make it, and you want the killer to get stopped. You're there to be frightened by disturbing images. Compare that to Hatred, which seems to carry the message "let's kill some random people because they deserve it." Not even the same ballpark.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;46720709]Whether or not you can kill civilians is not the problem for Valve, its about what the context for those actions is and how that will represent Valve if they choose to take responsbility for it.[/QUOTE]
Realistically it won't have much of an effect.
The company is huge and Steam is still the most popular online game store, I don't think many customers are going to be driven away just because they're selling Hatred, even if there is a media shitstorm. They're not willing to take the risk though it seems.
HOLY SHIT, I WANT IT!
[QUOTE=FreakyMe;46720641]GTA is a plot-oriented game in which you have the option to not kill most people you come across. It does not allow the main character to shove his gun into a woman's mouth while she is begging for mercy and execute her and then give you points for it. When I play GTA, I generally only kill the people I am forced to in self-defense or whom I am required to as declared by the plot. I try to avoid running over pedestrians, and steal empty cars whenever I have the luxury of time to do so. [B]My sense of morality is reflected in the game[/B]. I don't go on shooting sprees on the board walk or Main St. because I have no desire to do so. I am free to make judgement calls when planning heists to minimize casualties. I don't [I]HAVE[/I] to be a mass murderer, just a sociopathic criminal who is down on his luck and looking for a way out of the life he has. The fact that you or other people consider killing everyone in sight a game in itself doesn't mean that everyone plays that way.[/QUOTE]
I am sorry but this is just double fucking standards beyond belief. Half of your argument is just "Well I wouldn't do that in GTA ergo GTA isn't like that". Sure you may not drive down the sidewalk in GTA but that doesn't mean others don't.
Also have you considered that you are not being forced to play the game if you disagree with it?
[QUOTE=FreakyMe;46720641]
The violence in Manhunt is primarily committed against mass murderers and others who have committed numerous crimes against humanity. [B]It never struck me as brutal for brutality's sake[/B] as much as portraying how horrific and involved of a process it is to kill someone in a manner not involving a gun (which I took to be a statement in itself). As far as I can recall, the main character does not kill many innocent people.
[/QUOTE]
Even though one of the core mechanics of the game is to choose the level of how brutally you want to kill someone? Also you do kill a lot of police officers. Also you don't get to be wishy washy introspective about one game and then say "No, this other game has no artistic merit".
[QUOTE=FreakyMe;46720641]
Postal 1 is pixels and Doom-era sounds interspersed with a text-based narrative.
[/QUOTE]
I didn't know morality was bound by screen resolution.
[QUOTE=FreakyMe;46720641]
Modern Warfare II was depicting a false-flag operation. I didn't particularly like the scene, but I also didn't shoot when I realized I had the option not to. You don't have to shoot anyone in that scene, except perhaps the police that come in full force after you get onto the tarmac.
[/QUOTE]
So you are forced to kill innocent police officers.
The reason why I am so angered by this is because it's fucking ridiculous that an artistic medium has to go through another stage of violence repression, as it has so many times before.
I mean all of you bsing about MW2 "using the level to paint the bad guys as bad" Well great double standards you have. "Gamers won't be able to tell that the actions in hatred are bad, meanwhile in MW2 Gamers will be able to tell the bad guys are bad because of their actions".
[QUOTE=wulfe8857;46720718]Slasher flicks are about the survival of the main characters, not about the slaughtering of random civilians. Intent and perspective are important.[/QUOTE]
have you ever even watched a friday the 13th movie before
[QUOTE=Doom64hunter;46720760]Realistically it won't have much of an effect.
The company is huge and Steam is still the most popular online game store, I don't think many customers are going to be driven away just because they're selling Hatred, even if there is a media shitstorm. They're not willing to take the risk though it seems.[/QUOTE]
When it comes to distributors, especially ones in a relatively unstable economy (videogames really could collapse at any minute), every loss is a bad loss.
[editline]15th December 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;46720779]have you ever even watched a friday the 13th movie before[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=wulfe8857;46720718]Slasher flicks are about the survival of the main characters, not about the slaughtering of random civilians. Intent and perspective are important.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Grimhound;46720667]And you're arguing Hatred isn't intentionally disturbing?
Postal and Hatred are pretty much the same game. The difference is you see their faces and hear them crying for their lives in Hatred.[/QUOTE]
Postal has a grim setting, there's no music, besides the ambient noise you only really hear gunfire and screams, the level transitions are sinister messages with creepy imagery, and in general it's just an unsettling game. (You do hear them crying for their lives by the way.) The Hatred developers want you to enjoy what you're doing, so they've made an action-packed slaughter game and given it a metal soundtrack to keep the adrenaline pumping while you execute people in horrific ways. Once again, context matters and the disturbing thing is they're serious about it.
[QUOTE=wulfe8857;46720792]When it comes to distributors, especially ones in a relatively unstable economy (videogames really could collapse at any minute), every loss is a bad loss.
[editline]15th December 2014[/editline][/QUOTE]
Yes I'm sure Steam would take a crippling hit :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Aman;46720725]Sure, and that's Valves decision and opinion I got nothing wrong with that. I'd like it to be on Steam, but oh well I can't change things.
I just find it funny on a video game forum of all things we got posters acting like Jack Thompson.[/QUOTE]
Before you compare GTA to it and say they are equally violent...
You got a game about a bunch of guys killing people in pretty quick and not that detailed ways in a not so serious tone on one side [b]as an optional feature for a big part of the game[/b]...
And on another, you have a pretty dark game about a guy who's mad at everything and everyone for no reason, who wants to kill as many as he can before dying from it, again for no discernible reason other than "I hate everything", which also gives you detailed and pretty gory executions of civilians who even beg for mercy. Let's throw in a "supposedly" in there because the game isn't out yet, but if its anything close to the trailer, its accurate.
So, this is literaly Manhunt, except you have no reasons to be killing people, and the people you kill are all innocent and even beg you for their lives.
Again, context. One has a horrible context that could really use a change. Guess which one it is.
[QUOTE=wulfe8857;46720792]When it comes to distributors, especially ones in a relatively unstable economy (videogames really could collapse at any minute), every loss is a bad loss.[/QUOTE]
If Air Control, War Z, and Mark of the Wolf didn't tank Valve, I really fucking doubt that Hatred will.
[QUOTE=Aman;46720713]Since when does art get banned cause "I'm offended!"?[/QUOTE]
This wasn't banned. Steam refused to sell it.
Companies refuse to sell products every day.
[QUOTE=Bread_Baron;46720580]For those wondering what makes Hatred different to Postal 1, there's one very clear yet simple difference. Hatred glorifies mass murder, whereas Postal condemns it. Postal constantly makes you feel uncomfortable and shows you that your actions are fucked up, whereas Hatred encourages that behaviour. They're opposite ideals about the same subject matter.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't say it goes as far as to glorify the violence, you dong get some narrator going ultra kill ! 100 points !
It's plaid completely straight, as horrible and sick and twisted, kinda tests what the average gamer is willing to do for entertainment.
[QUOTE=Thlis;46720774]Even though one of the core mechanics of the game is to choose the level of how brutally you want to kill someone? Also you do kill a lot of police officers. Also you don't get to be wishy washy introspective about one game and then say "No, this other game has no artistic merit".
So you are forced to kill innocent police officers.[/QUOTE]
In Manhunt, the cops are crooked, kill people to cover up the shit that happens in the story, and are explicitly out to murder you so that word doesn't get out about Starkweather turning an entire shitty city into a snuff film ring they're involved in. And in Modern Warfare 2, [i]you're a goddamn undercover CIA agent,[/i] not legitimately a full-blown terrorist, so it's a situation where you're forced to kill the Russian police on the scene to preserve your cover and not die. Not that it makes much of a difference since you're shot and killed and [b]your corpse is used by Russia to start a war against America.[/b] (Nevermind the fact that at least one or two of the blatant russian terrorists are scripted to die in that segment beforehand.)
Context is a powerful thing.
[QUOTE=Bread_Baron;46720800]Postal has a grim setting, there's no music, besides the ambient noise you only really hear gunfire and screams, the level transitions are sinister messages with creepy imagery, and in general it's just an unsettling game. (You do hear them crying for their lives by the way.) The Hatred developers want you to enjoy what you're doing, so they've made an action-packed slaughter game and given it a metal soundtrack to keep the adrenaline pumping while you execute people in horrific ways. Once again, context matters and the disturbing thing is they're serious about it.[/QUOTE]
Hey, all you time travelers in this thread, can you tell me if the new Mad Max is as good as it looks? I'm really hyped for that movie.
call me a pussy, if you want, but that trailer made me really uncomfortable. :c
[QUOTE=Wii60;46720482]but hey valves ok with a [URL=http://store.steampowered.com/agecheck/app/313740/]literal hentai game[/URL] on their service, but shooting people is too far[/QUOTE]
that's a stupid comparison
since when is sex in any way comparable to murder
i guess the fact that we were born is tantamount to genocide, then, huh
"my dad's okay with having sex with my MOM but killing his co-workers with an ar-15 is [I]way too far[/I], apparently! gosh, what a weirdo!"
[QUOTE=Bread_Baron;46720800]Postal has a grim setting, there's no music, besides the ambient noise you only really hear gunfire and screams, the level transitions are sinister messages with creepy imagery, and in general it's just an unsettling game. (You do hear them crying for their lives by the way.) The Hatred developers want you to enjoy what you're doing, so they've made an action-packed slaughter game and given it a metal soundtrack to keep the adrenaline pumping while you execute people in horrific ways. Once again, context matters and the disturbing thing is they're serious about it.[/QUOTE]
Not actually metal, they've said they're gonna use dark industrial ambiental music done by Adam Skorupa, so I'm actually looking forward to that.
[QUOTE=RikohZX;46720834]In Manhunt, the cops are crooked, kill people to cover up the shit that happens in the story, and are explicitly out to murder you so that word doesn't get out about Starkweather turning an entire shitty city into a snuff film ring they're involved in. And in Modern Warfare 2, [i]you're a goddamn undercover CIA agent,[/i] not legitimately a full-blown terrorist, so it's a situation where you're forced to kill the Russian police on the scene to preserve your cover and not die. Not that it makes much of a difference since you're shot and killed and [b]your corpse is used by Russia to start a war against America.[/b] (Nevermind the fact that at least one or two of the blatant russian terrorists are scripted to die in that segment beforehand.)
Context is a powerful thing.[/QUOTE]
Can you adequately define when it is and isn't alright to feature mass genocide in a game?
[QUOTE=Thlis;46720774]I mean all of you bsing about MW2 "using the level to paint the bad guys as bad" Well great double standards you have. "Gamers won't be able to tell that the actions in hatred are bad, meanwhile in MW2 Gamers will be able to tell the bad guys are bad because of their actions".[/QUOTE]
Again with these comparisons...
Shooting said officers who shoot back at you no matter what you do, isn't the same as cleaning someone's head off with a shotgun right after they plead for their lives.
[QUOTE=bitches;46720824]This wasn't banned. Steam refused to sell it.
Companies refuse to sell products every day.[/QUOTE]
The fact that Valve cares more about it's image than it's customers is what fucking pisses me off about this.
I was willing to defend them when it came to all of the other blatant fucking scamware under the assumption they just didn't look at [I]anything,[/I] but clearly they care when something that might harm their prestigious public image comes up. Holy shit, what assholes.
[QUOTE=Rocâ„¢;46720852]Again with these comparisons...
Shooting said officers who shoot back at you no matter what you do, isn't the same as cleaning someone's head off with a shotgun right after they plead for their lives.[/QUOTE]
What like in GTA where people will plead for their lives?
This game strives to be a simulator for mass murder of the sort you see on the news, unlike games like GTA. This comes at a time when terrorism and shootings are causing unrest worldwide.
Nobody banned this game from being sold to anyone. This isn't censorship. They can sell the game elsewhere.
Valve doesn't want to be associated with a particularly controversial game, and that's their decision to make. They associate themselves with a lot of questionable games, but it isn't hard to see why this one warrants more attention and debate within Valve than others.
but no, continue to whine about censorship and how videogames are just pixels and words don't matter
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;46720854]The fact that Valve cares more about it's image than it's customers is what fucking pisses me off about this.
I was willing to defend them when it came to all of the other blatant fucking scamware under the assumption they just didn't look at [I]anything,[/I] but clearly they care when something that might harm their prestigious public image comes up. Holy shit, what assholes.[/QUOTE]
what do you mean they don't care about their customers? because they won't sell this? at most that means they don't care for the developers, and even that claim is a stretch.
get off the high horse, it's okay for a company serving 7 million people, half of them opinionated and volatile, to want to protect their image.
[QUOTE=joes33431;46720840]call me a pussy, if you want, but that trailer made me really uncomfortable. :c
that's a stupid comparison
since when is sex in any way comparable to murder
i guess the fact that we were born is tantamount to genocide, then, huh[/QUOTE]
Some people don't seem to realize that sex is not inherently immoral and does not require justification, whereas violence and murder does generally require something to justify its depiction.
The justification for the depiction of violence can be extremely flimsy so long as there is one. "It's satirical!" "It's unrealistic spectacle!" "It's meant to disturb you!" All of that.
The issue that people take with Hatred is that it has no immediate visible justification in any form. The trailer says outright "this is about killing random people for the fuck of it," the game's website says "this is about killing random people for the fuck of it," the game's tone doesn't imply any sort of lightheartedness, there is no real justification. You're just a guy that takes a gun and shoots in to a crowd and people scream and the cops come and then you kill the cops and that's it.
"Hey, why did you make this porno?" "To give people a boner!" "Oh, okay."
"Hey, why did you make this game where you realistically depict murder?" "Because I want to indulge in realistic murder fantasies." "Wow that's kind of"
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;46720854]The fact that Valve cares more about it's image than it's customers is what fucking pisses me off about this.
I was willing to defend them when it came to all of the other blatant fucking scamware under the assumption they just didn't look at [I]anything,[/I] but clearly they care when something that might harm their prestigious public image comes up. Holy shit, what assholes.[/QUOTE]
Why are they assholes for protecting their image? Nothing is stopping the devs from selling it elsewhere, and you buying it elsewhere. They didn't harm you in any way.
[QUOTE=Thlis;46720870]What like in GTA where people will plead for their lives?[/QUOTE]
i dont know about you, but in gta they don't plead for mercy with a gun to their heads, most of the time they act in the dumbest ways, because the ai and civilian writing is wonky and dumb for a reason
like, there's a reason the game is programmed like this, and it's not because the developers are "lazy"
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpLjdrZFtkY[/media]
Not gonna quote anyone but basically to everyone defending GTA:
If in a game you could do everything you can in Hatred+do everything you can in GTA, would the game be acceptable?
Furthermore, if the player choses to kill civilians and do nothing else (despite having multiple options), does that mean the game is not acceptable?
If you answer yes to both, that's a serious case of double standard.
Let's also not forget that in GTA1, there was not much else to do besides killing pedestrians, and look at the series now. Interesting to note that GTA1 was also a target of controversy, and still, it was a hit, a legend even.
Not that I care. I'm safely with the people saying NPCs in videogames are pixels, not people. After all, GTA1 was a success because it was fun and unique, not because you could butcher random joes and janes represented by 8*8 sprites. That was just a meaningless bonus.
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