Dutch 'Black Pete' Christmas custom may be racist, warns UN - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Natrox;42625618]To fully understand what Sinterklaas means, you must grow up with it, imo.[/QUOTE] Regardless of whether or not that's even true, you realise the condition you've set, right? "If they fully understand it, they'll think it's fine." + "If they don't think it's fine, then they don't fully understand it." means you've made it impossible to disagree with. This is basic logic my friend.

[QUOTE=Aman;42623924]I'd like you to find me a black person who is deeply offended by Black Pete. Really.[/QUOTE] Print out any of the pictures of him posted in this thread and post them all over Detroit. You'll get a few dozen at least.

[QUOTE=Megafan;42625563]I mean it is a very self-fulfilling prophecy to say that "the only people who think it's bad don't [I]really[/I] understand it". Thisispain himself said he lived in the Netherlands for several years, so I would hardly describe that as 'slacktivism' in any sense of the word.[/QUOTE] No, we're saying the people who don't understand are foreigners who didn't grow up with the tradition. We understand how it looks for an outsider, but that doesn't really matter to us. We like it, it has no racist connotations to us, and very, very few people who grew up with it complain about it. Meanwhile the Facebook group in support of Black Pete has garnered 1.7M likes in the past couple of days. [editline]24th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Megafan;42625635]Regardless of whether or not that's even true, you realise the condition you've set, right? "If they fully understand it, they'll think it's fine." + "If they don't think it's fine, then they don't fully understand it." means you've made it impossible to disagree with. This is basic logic my friend.[/QUOTE] That's not what we're saying. We're just saying outsiders shouldn't judge our tradition so easily.

[QUOTE=mobrockers;42625697]No, we're saying the people who don't understand are foreigners who didn't grow up with the tradition. That's not what we're saying. We're just saying outsiders shouldn't judge our tradition so easily.[/QUOTE] How can you not see how this sounds? It's beyond stereotypical. The "foreigners can't judge our traditions" shtick is about as old as the traditions themselves. Not only that, but your definition of 'foreigner' is 'anyone who wasn't born here'. I mean that's just ridiculous. I don't know what sort of magical knowledge you think you gain from being born in a particular country considering the fact that they are arbitrary areas, the only thing imaginable is that you are, by default, more comfortable with the traditions. In the same way that some people growing up in Saudi Arabia are no doubt more comfortable with less civil rights.

[QUOTE=Megafan;42625743]I don't know what sort of magical knowledge you think you gain from being born in a particular country[/QUOTE] I think he means more along the lines of being raised in or a member of the local culture, not some sort of xenophobic nationalist sentiment.

[QUOTE=DaysBefore;42625761]I think he means more along the lines of being raised in or a member of the local culture, not some sort of xenophobic nationalist sentiment.[/QUOTE] Well right, but even then it seems like what he's describing as 'fully understanding' is more along the lines of 'more comfortable with personally'.

Uh this might be late/already mentioned, But if its just soot covered white people, why do all of them seem ti be specifically wearing curly hair wigs/ being depicted with nappy hair?

[QUOTE=Milkdairy;42625777]Uh this might be late/already mentioned, But if its just soot covered white people, why do all of them seem ti be specifically wearing curly hair wigs/ being depicted with nappy hair?[/QUOTE] Because that's what the character is described and depicted as.

[QUOTE=Megafan;42625770]Well right, but even then it seems like what he's describing as 'fully understanding' is more along the lines of 'more comfortable with personally'.[/QUOTE] Oh yeah it does seem like sort of a cop-out of "No you just [I]don't understaaaaand[/I]" but I don't think he's wearing a white hood or buying lengths of rope or anything

[QUOTE=katbug;42625788]Because that's what the character is described and depicted as.[/QUOTE] But why do you think he's described and depicted that way? It's not for no reason. [QUOTE=DaysBefore;42625794]Oh yeah it does seem like sort of a cop-out of "No you just [I]don't understaaaaand[/I]" but I don't think he's wearing a white hood or buying lengths of rope or anything[/QUOTE] Again, I'm not even in the same galaxy as suggesting he's a lynching KKK member, racist things can be more subtle than that.

[QUOTE=Megafan;42625770]Well right, but even then it seems like what he's describing as 'fully understanding' is more along the lines of 'more comfortable with personally'.[/QUOTE] I'm simply saying that an American for example will find it very hard to see anything other than blackface in this tradition, simply because an American will already have been influenced by blackface in his or her own culture. It is offensive to foreigners, I get that. It's not offensive to Dutch folk, except the ~200 people who filed a complaint.

[QUOTE=mobrockers;42625839]I'm simply saying that an American for example will find it very hard to see anything other than blackface in this tradition, simply because an American will already have been influenced by blackface in his or her own culture. It is offensive to foreigners, I get that. It's not offensive to Dutch folk, except the ~200 people who filed a complaint.[/QUOTE] I can tell you for a fact that I am in general quite sensitive to other cultures. I have been to other countries (especially in Europe, I have family and friends there) and am an International Relations major, the concept you're describing isn't that complicated. But you are shooting yourself in the foot intensely when you say "no Dutch person dislikes it" when some 200 [I]did[/I] file complaints. And, as the rule often goes, there are more people that dislike it than those who make the effort to file complaints, and more still who don't care one way or the other.

[QUOTE=Megafan;42625860]I can tell you for a fact that I am in general quite sensitive to other cultures. I have been to other countries (especially in Europe, I have family and friends there) and am an International Relations major, the concept you're describing isn't that complicated. But you are shooting yourself in the foot intensely when you say "no Dutch person dislikes it" when some 200 [I]did[/I] file complaints. And, as the rule often goes, there are more people that dislike it than those who make the effort to file complaints, and more still who don't care one way or the other.[/QUOTE] I realized this, then I saw an interview on TV of some relatively well known black guy whose argument was along the lines of his grandmother was once called a black pete, and it reminded him of how his ancestors had been enslaved. I just can't care for the opinion of such people, sorry.

[QUOTE=Megafan;42625743]How can you not see how this sounds? It's beyond stereotypical. The "foreigners can't judge our traditions" shtick is about as old as the traditions themselves. Not only that, but your definition of 'foreigner' is 'anyone who wasn't born here'. I mean that's just ridiculous. I don't know what sort of magical knowledge you think you gain from being born in a particular country considering the fact that they are arbitrary areas, the only thing imaginable is that you are, by default, more comfortable with the traditions. In the same way that some people growing up in Saudi Arabia are no doubt more comfortable with less civil rights.[/QUOTE] On the flipside, what exactly is anyone supposed to do about a harmless tradition that is only deemed racist by the people that don't practice it? Is there even a reason to do anything? Even if it is black face it just seems pointless to try to do anything about it. Apparently even the black people over there don't give a shit so why does it matter? Let them have their creepy black face Santa-servant, it makes the kids happy and doesn't seem to impart racist ideas at all.

[QUOTE=mugofdoom;42625936]On the flipside, what exactly is anyone supposed to do about a harmless tradition that is only deemed racist by the people that don't practice it? Is there even a reason to do anything? Even if it is black face it just seems pointless to try to do anything about it. Apparently even the black people over there don't give a shit so why does it matter? Let them have their creepy black face Santa-servant, it makes the kids happy and doesn't seem to impart racist ideas at all.[/QUOTE] Well even if it's not this, let's imagine it's something else. What if it were a short man with somewhat slanted eyes? Let's say there's some old story that says he looked at the sun too much and it made him unable to open them all the way. He might blatantly look like a caricature of an Asian person, and frankly it's sort of irrelevant if the people who celebrate it don't think it is one. Also again, the people who disagree with the practice will not celebrate it [I]by default.[/I] Saying "I don't care about their opinions" is one thing, but saying they matter less than yours by some kind of measure of 'culture understanding' is rubbish.

justice4zwartepiet

[QUOTE=mobrockers;42625928]I realized this, then I saw an interview on TV of some relatively well known black guy whose argument was along the lines of his grandmother was once called a black pete, and it reminded him of how his ancestors had been enslaved. I just can't care for the opinion of such people, sorry.[/QUOTE] that sounds like how american media will find the most outrageous or disagreeable antira people to parade around in order to push their agenda of racist and exploitive policy/advertising/whatever [editline]24th October 2013[/editline] because it doesn't matter how many people have reasonable complaints about something when people like you exist to get easily brainwashed into thinking the opposition is a bunch of idiots.

[QUOTE=Megafan;42625811]But why do you think he's described and depicted that way? It's not for no reason. [/QUOTE] Is it really so hard to believe that sometimes people just look certain ways and that it isn't that way just because it might possibly have connotations?

Everyone stop saying slave it comes from the name of my ancestors The Slavs! Please stop offending me, thisispain please come Social Justice this for me!

[QUOTE=katbug;42626468]Is it really so hard to believe that sometimes people just look certain ways and that it isn't that way just because it might possibly have connotations?[/QUOTE] There's a historical basis for these connotations, and very rarely is it the case that something just happens to look that way.

At this point it isn't intended to be racist or even a parody of black people like blackface was though; can't this caricature stereotype transcend to something else given the shift of cultural identity in the Netherlands? What was once a minstrel slave has now been visualized as a Santa's helper with a soot-stained face and other exaggerated features that is a common occurrence with other folklore creatures.

[QUOTE=Megafan;42625770]Well right, but even then it seems like what he's describing as 'fully understanding' is more along the lines of 'more comfortable with personally'.[/QUOTE] Or maybe, "it's not your culture to judge as racist...we certainly don't intend it that way so stop crying".

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42626357]that sounds like how american media will find the most outrageous or disagreeable antira people to parade around in order to push their agenda of racist and exploitive policy/advertising/whatever [editline]24th October 2013[/editline] because it doesn't matter how many people have reasonable complaints about something when people like you exist to get easily brainwashed into thinking the opposition is a bunch of idiots.[/QUOTE] Well, if you ever wanted him to take you seriously, I'm sure he won't do it now.

The ironic thing about this is that stuff like this often backfires; people tend to support important or beloved parts of their culture even more if is criticized by foreign groups that they feel have no business getting involved in, no matter if it is legit or not. Right-wing groups in particular will love it, as they can easily see it as mean foreigners trying to eliminate a happy and joyous part of Dutch culture because they are jerks. I am against ol' Piet, but where the criticism comes from does matter.

[QUOTE=EurofanBMW;42627047]Or maybe, "it's not your culture to judge as racist...we certainly don't intend it that way so stop crying".[/QUOTE] Certainly not crying, but that's beside the point. You can't 'own' a culture.

[QUOTE=G3rman;42627023]At this point it isn't intended to be racist or even a parody of black people like blackface was though; can't this caricature stereotype transcend to something else given the shift of cultural identity in the Netherlands? What was once a minstrel slave has now been visualized as a Santa's helper with a soot-stained face and other exaggerated features that is a common occurrence with other folklore creatures.[/QUOTE] Well apparently things can only shift towards being more racist, and not the other way around. I remember one of the Trayvon threads, the "thug" word argument. [editline]24th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Primigenes;42627667]Isn't that just you being indoctrinated?[/QUOTE] How about me saying that you're indoctrinated into believing that saying "black people" is okay? It's racist alright. And besides. How exactly does it matter if you're "indoctrinated" into believing something has NO racist connotation? Things can only become "loaded" if people apply those connotations to them.

Frankly, with the amount of colored people in the Netherlands complaining to the amount of colored people that are doing the opposite, I think it's pretty clear that it won't change in the near future. The UN has no say in this whatsoever. They can only do recommendations to the Dutch government, which will only act upon this when a large portion of Dutch people (more than the ~300 now atleast :v:) complain about it. You can all complain about whether or not it's actually racist but I sincerely doubt anything will change any time soon.

[QUOTE=Krahn;42616982]Hell, if anything, even if Black Petes are supposed to represent people of color, their role helps create positive association with them in kids. I mean, there ain't no damn kid who's gonna hate somebody who gives them presents... The Netherlands is probably one of the most multi-cultural countries in the world, and this is part of that.[/QUOTE] All of my black co-workers at work don't give a fuck, heck most of em celebrate the event with their kids! UN needs to fuck off and think about more important stuff, what a bunch of fucking idiots. This pisses me off so much..

Imagine another country has a similar tradition, but instead of black pete, it's a guy that looks like this [img]http://www.spiked-online.com/images/freetibet/drseuss.gif[/img] but nobody from that country recognises it as racist, and doesn't see the problem does that mean it isn't racist? does that mean it shouldn't be gotten rid of? heck no. mockery of another for their race is racist no matter where you come from whether you recognise it or not. and black pete is absolutely doing this, whether your parents lied to you about it or not. no matter how many people are 'okay' with it, at the end of the day, you're caricaturing a certain race. it is not okay.

[QUOTE=Megafan;42625770]Well right, but even then it seems like what he's describing as 'fully understanding' is more along the lines of 'more comfortable with personally'.[/QUOTE] What I really mean is; if you grow up with the tradition, you will have more experience with it. Sinterklaas is celebrated on many elementary schools every year, there are events aimed towards younger kids all over the country. It's a thing kids look forward to each year. It's not aimed at adults, so if you start living in our country at a later age, you will most definitely not get to know the celebration of Sinterklaas in the same way kids do. And that's why you would not fully understand, not because of some Dutch mindset, but because adults celebrate it differently or not at all. And it's not some weird indoctrination into some racist tradition. As I said before, there is nothing racist about Sinterklaas (in this day and age). Zwarte Piet just happens to look like blackface, but they don't have the same meaning.