Dutch 'Black Pete' Christmas custom may be racist, warns UN - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Rusty100;42628965]Imagine another country has a similar tradition, but instead of black pete, it's a guy that looks like this [img]http://www.spiked-online.com/images/freetibet/drseuss.gif[/img] but nobody from that country recognises it as racist, and doesn't see the problem does that mean it isn't racist? does that mean it shouldn't be gotten rid of? heck no. [/QUOTE] It does, and you should really calm down. Nothing in this world is inherently racist, NOTHING at all. It's cultural background and contexts that "load" things with certain unpleasant connotations. If in a particular country's culture exists no such context, then negative derogatory connotations are absent as well. Regardless of how similar it looks to something "loaded" in another culture. You can not go into someone else's country and tell them that their traditions offend YOU because it reminds you of something bad in your past traditions. Believe it or not, world doesn't revolve around particular cultural standards. And it looks especially stupid if you're not offended yourself, but instead whiteknighting for someone elses feelings. And to be honest it is quite racist and intolerant to enforce your standards on someone else.

[QUOTE=thejjokerr;42629028]Like I said before, we dont have blackface.[/QUOTE] do you not understand that that doesn't negate it's racist-ness! you're caricaturing black people whether you realise it or not! and it was very clearly the original intention during pete's inception. [editline]24th October 2013[/editline] you guys keep saying 'just because it's a part of someone elses history doesn't mean it's relevant to us!' but that makes no sense. the world is one big connected place and something that happens one place affects everyone and there is a degree of cultural sensitivity. 'hey, maybe black pete was originally intended to be a racist mockery of black people. we don't see it that way now, but maybe other countries more specifically effected by slavery do. heck, we are still perpetuating a horrifically offensive stereotype without realising it! we are insensitive and racist assholes!'

[QUOTE=Rusty100;42628965]no matter how many people are 'okay' with it, at the end of the day, you're caricaturing a certain race. it is not okay.[/QUOTE] Yes, how dare we have these caricatures running around giving presents and candy to children! That's not okay!

[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;42629134]Yes, how dare we have these caricatures running around giving presents and candy to children! That's not okay![/QUOTE] like i said, would it be okay if this guy was super nice and gave presents to kids? [img]http://www.spiked-online.com/images/freetibet/drseuss.gif[/img] no it wouldn't

[img]http://cdn02.nyheter24.se/96e94c380802021d01/2012/12/14/783645/tomte2.png[/img] "Mommy!!!" The Swedish dub of the Disney Christmas special called [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_All_of_Us_to_All_of_You]From All of Us to All of You[/url] first aired on Christmas Eve in Sweden 1960, the same old outdated dub is still run every single Christmas Eve and sitting down to watch it with your family before opening presents is now one of our major traditions (every year it has between 3 - 4.5 million viewers of out 9 million population). A few years ago there was a shitload of talk about a controversial new censorship of the Santa's Worshop segment which removed the short scene with the black doll. (It also removed some kosack dancing toy but I don't think as many people noticed or cared)

[QUOTE=Rusty100;42629093] you guys keep saying 'just because it's a part of someone elses history doesn't mean it's relevant to us!' but that makes no sense. the world is one big connected place and something that happens one place affects everyone and there is a degree of cultural sensitivity. 'hey, maybe black pete was originally intended to be a racist mockery of black people. we don't see it that way now, but maybe other countries more specifically effected by slavery do. heck, we are still perpetuating a horrifically offensive stereotype without realising it! we are insensitive and racist assholes!'[/QUOTE] No one said this exact thing. When some part of particular country's culture, - regardless of what were intentiosns behind it when it first appeared, - is not viewed as racist and/or derogatory towards any group by the inhabitants of this country, then it is not racist in this country's context. And when someone moves in Netherlands from aboard, they enter Netherlands' cultural context and are expected to respect it. Things become harmful only when they're intended that way. Once something's cleared from derogatory connotations, it stops perpetuating "harmful stereotypes", because there's no such stereotypes! You seriously think that certain things can only become loaded, but not cleared of something? Damn it, if USA stops telling everyone what blackface supposed to represent, in a hundred of years (few generations) it won't be viewed as harmful to anyone anymore, it will be just some image.

[QUOTE=Rusty100;42629158]like i said, would it be okay if this guy was super nice and gave presents to kids? [img]http://www.spiked-online.com/images/freetibet/drseuss.gif[/img] no it wouldn't[/QUOTE] Did you lobby for White Chicks to be banned? [IMG]http://blogs.bet.com/entertainment/whattheflick/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/white_chicks0.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42626357]that sounds like how american media will find the most outrageous or disagreeable antira people to parade around in order to push their agenda of racist and exploitive policy/advertising/whatever [editline]24th October 2013[/editline] because it doesn't matter how many people have reasonable complaints about something when people like you exist to get easily brainwashed into thinking the opposition is a bunch of idiots.[/QUOTE] I'd agree with you except this guy is pretty much the leader of the opposition.

Good lord, they are making such a big deal about a harmless culture custom that both our countries share. Aren't there like economies you should be fixing you damn old bastards

[QUOTE=benwaddi;42629213]Did you lobby for White Chicks to be banned? [IMG]http://blogs.bet.com/entertainment/whattheflick/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/white_chicks0.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE] no because white people as a race were never enslaved and ridiculed for it and were never wide spread believed as inferior and subhuman. [editline]24th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Simski;42629186][IMG]http://cdn02.nyheter24.se/96e94c380802021d01/2012/12/14/783645/tomte2.png[/IMG] "Mommy!!!" The Swedish dub of the Disney Christmas special called [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_All_of_Us_to_All_of_You"]From All of Us to All of You[/URL] first aired on Christmas Eve in Sweden 1960, the same old outdated dub is still run every single Christmas Eve and sitting down to watch it with your family before opening presents is now one of our major traditions (every year it has between 3 - 4.5 million viewers of out 9 million population). A few years ago there was a shitload of talk about a controversial new censorship of the Santa's Worshop segment which removed the short scene with the black doll. (It also removed some kosack dancing toy but I don't think as many people noticed or cared)[/QUOTE] uh good, because that thing is basically a golliwog [IMG]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/07/08/article-1033269-01E2198000000578-896_233x276.jpg[/IMG] a racist as hell doll

its a goddamn holiday for children which is being celibrated for more than 100 of years and now they are banning it because maby just maby it has to do a little with slavery such a shame

[QUOTE=Knuffelbeer;42629365]its a goddamn holiday for children which is being celibrated for more than 100 of years and now they are banning it because maby just maby it has to do a little with slavery such a shame[/QUOTE] just a little? seriously? black pete is literally santas slave, he's like a dancing monkey.

[QUOTE=Rusty100;42629341]no because white people as a race were never enslaved and ridiculed for it and were never wide spread believed as inferior and subhuman. [/QUOTE] Did you completely sleep through all the history classes? [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade[/url] and that's only the most prominent example.

[QUOTE=Rusty100;42629341]no because white people as a race were never enslaved and ridiculed for it and were never wide spread believed as inferior and subhuman. [/QUOTE] That justifies racism? You know at one point blacks weren't seen as inferior then people started thinking that way but hey it was OK because until then they never were enslaved or ridiculed! Nice to see a mod think blacks have more value than whites, its literally no different than the racist reasoning people used to oppress and marginalize blacks.

It turns out the United Nations have absolutely nothing to do with this bullshit. There were 4 people that used the HEADING of the UN and Unesco in the letter they send to the Political instances in the Netherlands, meaning lots of noise about NOTHING. Literally. You can read it all here, but it's in dutch. [url]http://www.deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/buitenland/131024_sinterklaas_vn[/url]

It's fucking blackface, are you guys dumb or something

[QUOTE=Rusty100;42629341]no because white people as a race were never enslaved and ridiculed for it and were never wide spread believed as inferior and subhuman.[/QUOTE]Your argument is fucking retarded. I'm sorry, Rusty, I like you and all but I'm going to have to stop you right here and break it down for you. You're arguing against Zwarte Piet because it's essentially a caricature of black people, and that's bad in your opinion. He's not necessarily making them [i]look bad[/i] but he is a caricature and that's bad. Yet on the other hand... White Chicks is okay because white people were never enslaved or ridiculed, which isn't true at all but that's beside the point. This is a double standard. Both are racial caricatures. Both aren't actually ridiculing a specific race, but are instead using the black/white face for character substance. (Zwarte Piet stands the fuck out in any crowd, White Chicks is two black dudes masquerading as white women, so wacky) In fact, Zwarte Piet is such a fucking mishmash of different elements that have been combined into some clusterfuck of a character. He's supposed to be a freed slave who works for the guy who set him free, he's supposed to be Huginn and Muninn, and he's supposed to be an actual demon who's being forced to be a good person. Seriously, that's not even all of it, Dutch people can't even agree what the hell he is anyway, or why he's black. I asked the thirty odd Dutch people I know, nine said he's actually black, six said he's black from soot, (three added that Zwarte Piet is an orphan, so I guess this is a Dickensian legend now) two said he's Satan, one says he's an elf, (I guess elves are black) and the rest aren't sure or didn't reply. Even in this thread, the Dutch folks don't have a consistent story about him. The fact that a very, very small minority sees him as actively offensive to non-Caucasians is proof that he's not inherently racist. Or, at least, no more racist than White Chicks, or Dave Chapelle's generic white guy character.

[QUOTE=benwaddi;42629440]That justifies racism? You know at one point blacks weren't seen as inferior then people started thinking that way but hey it was OK because until then they never were enslaved or ridiculed! Nice to see a mod think blacks have more value than whites, its literally no different than the racist reasoning people used to oppress and marginalize blacks.[/QUOTE] in my defense, i do think white chicks is terrible and in poor taste [editline]24th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;42629650]Your argument is fucking retarded. I'm sorry, Rusty, I like you and all but I'm going to have to stop you right here and break it down for you. You're arguing against Zwarte Piet because it's essentially a caricature of black people, and that's bad in your opinion. He's not necessarily making them [i]look bad[/i] but he is a caricature and that's bad. Yet on the other hand... White Chicks is okay because white people were never enslaved or ridiculed, which isn't true at all but that's beside the point. This is a double standard. Both are racial caricatures. Both aren't actually ridiculing a specific race, but are instead using the black/white face for character substance. (Zwarte Piet stands the fuck out in any crowd, White Chicks is two black dudes masquerading as white women, so wacky) In fact, Zwarte Piet is such a fucking mishmash of different elements that have been combined into some clusterfuck of a character. He's supposed to be a freed slave who works for the guy who set him free, he's supposed to be Huginn and Muninn, and he's supposed to be an actual demon who's being forced to be a good person. Seriously, that's not even all of it, Dutch people can't even agree what the hell he is anyway, or why he's black. I asked the thirty odd Dutch people I know, nine said he's actually black, six said he's black from soot, (three added that Zwarte Piet is an orphan, so I guess this is a Dickensian legend now) two said he's Satan, one says he's an elf, (I guess elves are black) and the rest aren't sure or didn't reply. Even in this thread, the Dutch folks don't have a consistent story about him. The fact that a very, very small minority sees him as actively offensive to non-Caucasians is proof that he's not inherently racist. Or, at least, no more racist than White Chicks, or Dave Chapelle's generic white guy character.[/QUOTE] alright then, white face IS just as bad. white chicks is like, the only time i've ever seen it, and it's not exactly something i think about because the movie was awful and i try to forget it, but on further thought, yes, I do think it's just as unacceptable. [editline]24th October 2013[/editline] i don't know how you guys keep trying to take the moral highground you are defending blackface.

[QUOTE=Rusty100;42629770]alright then, white face IS just as bad. white chicks is like, the only time i've ever seen it, and it's not exactly something i think about because the movie was awful and i try to forget it, but on further thought, yes, I do think it's just as unacceptable.[/QUOTE]Yeah, it was a terrible movie and I don't blame you for desperately trying to forget it.

[QUOTE=Rusty100;42629341]no because white people as a race were never enslaved and ridiculed for it and were never wide spread believed as inferior and subhuman. [/QUOTE] You realize the word [I]Slave [/I]does come from the Root [I]Slav[/I]. Which is a group of White People. [quote=Wikipedia]The English word slave, and the Arabic saqaliba, is a corruption of the word Slav, from the widespread enslavement of captured Slavs in the early Middle Ages[/quote] Even then, throughout history White People have enslaved other White people. The Romans, Greek City States, etc... To say that Whites have never been slaves is one of the funniest things I have ever read.

[QUOTE=bdd458;42630129]You realize the word [I]Slave [/I]does come from the Root [I]Slav[/I]. Which is a group of White People. Even then, throughout history White People have enslaved other White people. The Romans, Greek City States, etc... To say that Whites have never been slaves is one of the funniest things I have ever read.[/QUOTE] Good thing he never said it then. [quote]white people as a race were never enslaved[/quote] This is completely true. Blacks, on the other hand, were immediately assumed to be inferior and enslaved on the basis of their race, rather than their actual actions. In Ancient Greece or Rome, you could be white and be a normal human being. During the era of black slavery, you could not be black and be a normal human being. Big difference.

[QUOTE=Rusty100;42629158]like i said, would it be okay if this guy was super nice and gave presents to kids? [img]http://www.spiked-online.com/images/freetibet/drseuss.gif[/img] no it wouldn't[/QUOTE] Ban Santa Claus because he's a fat guy in a funny suit. Doesn't matter that everyone believes he's a nice guy who gives presents and spreads joy and happiness. He's a caricature of a fat person and that's terrible and offensive.

[QUOTE=V12US;42630491]Ban Santa Claus because he's a fat guy in a funny suit. Doesn't matter that everyone believes he's a nice guy who gives presents and spreads joy and happiness. He's a caricature of a fat person and that's terrible and offensive.[/QUOTE] How is Santa a caricature? He's a guy who happens to be fat. The only allusion/jab at obesity is a vague reference to cookies. There's nothing else. This "Black Pete" character's appearance is a clear mockery of African features.

[QUOTE=Explosions;42630484]Good thing he never said it then. This is completely true. Blacks, on the other hand, were immediately assumed to be inferior and enslaved on the basis of their race, rather than their actual actions. In Ancient Greece or Rome, you could be white and be a normal human being. During the era of black slavery, you could not be black and be a normal human being. Big difference.[/QUOTE] I keep seeing this shit and I wonder if people have ever seen a world map. I mean, MAYBE that happened in Greece and Rome because the people there were mainly white? If a white person went to Africa, it would be the exact same thing but inverted. Europe and NA aren't the whole world, it just happens to be more prominent in our education and media because well, it's our history, but that doesn't mean it's the only shit that happened in the last 4000 years of history.

[QUOTE=acds;42630547]I keep seeing this shit and I wonder if people have ever seen a world map. I mean, MAYBE that happened in Greece and Rome because the people there were mainly white? If a white person went to Africa, it would be the exact same thing but inverted. Europe and NA aren't the whole world, it just happens to be more prominent in our education and media because well, it's our history, but that doesn't mean it's the only shit that happened in the last 4000 years of history.[/QUOTE] Slavery in Africa (and in the ancient world in general) was entirely different from the slavery of the 18th and 19th centuries. Entire races were not assumed to be inferior and subjugated on that fact. There is no doubt that there were thousands of white slaves in the Muslim world, taken captive by Arab slavers. They were not taken captive on the basis of their skin color, however. This is the key difference. Mostly, Europeans were enslaved because they were not Muslims.

[QUOTE=Explosions;42630484]Good thing he never said it then. This is completely true. Blacks, on the other hand, were immediately assumed to be inferior and enslaved on the basis of their race, rather than their actual actions. In Ancient Greece or Rome, you could be white and be a normal human being. During the era of black slavery, you could not be black and be a normal human being. Big difference.[/QUOTE] [quote=Wikipedia]widespread enslavement of captured Slavs[/quote] Yup, as a race Slavic peoples were never treated like shit or thought to be inferior because they were Slavs. Oh wait. [quote=Wikipedia] As of 1878, there were only three free Slavic states in the world: Russian Empire, Serbia and Montenegro. Bulgaria was also free but was de jure vassal to the Ottoman Empire until official independence was declared in 1908. In the entire Austro-Hungarian Empire of approximately 50 million people, about 23 million were Slavs. The Slavic peoples who were, for the most part, denied a voice in the affairs of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, were calling for national self-determination. During World War I, representatives of the Czechs, Slovaks, Poles, Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes set up organizations in the Allied countries to gain sympathy and recognition.[101] In 1918, after World War I ended, the Slavs established such independent states as Czechoslovakia, the Second Polish Republic, and the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes. One of Hitler's ambitions at the start of World War II was to exterminate, expel, or enslave most or all East and West Slavs from their native lands and to kill 30 million Slavic people, so as to make living space for German settlers. This plan of genocide[102] was to be carried into effect gradually over 25 to 30 years.[/quote] And that's just [I]modern history[/I].

[QUOTE=Rusty100;42629770]in my defense, i do think white chicks is terrible and in poor taste [editline]24th October 2013[/editline] alright then, white face IS just as bad. white chicks is like, the only time i've ever seen it, and it's not exactly something i think about because the movie was awful and i try to forget it, but on further thought, yes, I do think it's just as unacceptable. [editline]24th October 2013[/editline] i don't know how you guys keep trying to take the moral highground you are defending blackface.[/QUOTE] The Swastika was originally a symbol for peace. It can still be found on old shrines or temples. Does that mean everyone at the temple is a Nazi? No. Just because you associate Black Pete with blackface and racism doesn't mean everyone associates it with that. Of course you're going to be offended. You grew up believing that a black person in a bad situation = racism. If you walk into a room and see 5 white men talking together and a black man reading a book, you'd assume the white men are racists because they're not talking to the black man. You're forcing others to take on your culture.

[QUOTE=bdd458;42630589]Yup, as a race Slavic peoples were never treated like shit or thought to be inferior because they were Slavs. Oh wait. And that's just [I]modern history[/I].[/QUOTE] idk what ur point is, that doesnt change the fact that blackface is offensive [editline]24th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=joost1120;42631073]The Swastika was originally a symbol for peace. It can still be found on old shrines or temples. Does that mean everyone at the temple is a Nazi? No. Just because you associate Black Pete with blackface and racism doesn't mean everyone associates it with that. Of course you're going to be offended. You grew up believing that a black person in a bad situation = racism. If you walk into a room and see 5 white men talking together and a black man reading a book, you'd assume the white men are racists because they're not talking to the black man. You're forcing others to take on your culture.[/QUOTE] except black pete actually stems from racism

I think the demand to completely remove a traditional character is a bit too optimistic. The best they could do is to focus on bringing out the alternative interpretations of this character, such as making it more obvious that he's an orphan covered in soot helping Santa, or a mischievous imp forced to help Santa. Completely removing the tradition is just not going to be popular enough for people to accept it.

[QUOTE=Hellduck;42631077]idk what ur point is, that doesnt change the fact that blackface is offensive[/QUOTE] Point is that groups of White People have been enslaved and murdered just because they're of a certain race of white people, it's not something exclusive to blacks. In both cases it's terrible, but to say that only Blacks have been enslaved for their race is really, really funny.