Dutch 'Black Pete' Christmas custom may be racist, warns UN - Polidicks

[QUOTE=bdd458;42631121]Point is that groups of White People have been enslaved and murdered just because they're of a certain race of white people, it's not something exclusive to blacks. In both cases it's terrible, but to say that only Blacks have been enslaved for their race is really, really funny.[/QUOTE] "a certain race of white people" not white people as a whole

[QUOTE=Hellduck;42631077]idk what ur point is, that doesnt change the fact that blackface is offensive [editline]24th October 2013[/editline] except black pete actually stems from racism[/QUOTE] But he doesn't. Black Pete is black because of the soot in chimneys. I could go on the street and ask anyone why Black Pete is black and they would tell me it's because of the soot in the chimneys they climb through.

[QUOTE=joost1120;42631189]But he doesn't. Black Pete is black because of the soot in chimneys. I could go on the street and ask anyone why Black Pete is black and they would tell me it's because of the soot in the chimneys they climb through.[/QUOTE] and that's absolute bullshit

[QUOTE=Hellduck;42631168]"a certain race of white people" not white people as a whole[/QUOTE] Europeans were ruthless, but the same could be said about the African Rulers whom stimulated the Slave Trade by giving into European Demands. By selling their captured enemies (of neighboring [I]Ethnicity and tribes that they felt were not of their own[/I]). In the end though, war between the tribes and nations was a product of slaves, and not the other way around as it had been before. Even then, if they did say no they would most likely have gotten captured by Europeans. You act as if all Blacks are of one race, surprise! They're not! In the US, yes it did become that "If you're Black you're a slave" but back in Africa it was because "you are not our ethnicity". And yes, in general when African Kingdoms had slaves they treated them far better than in the Colonies and eventually the US. But the point is not all Blacks were enslaved, nor were all Whites.

SINTERKLAUUS

This thread is literally going nowhere.

thank you for your contribution, suddenimpact, im sure it will bring this thread to a quick and satisfactory conclusion [editline]24th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=bdd458;42631505]Europeans were ruthless, but the same could be said about the African Rulers whom stimulated the Slave Trade by giving into European Demands. By selling their captured enemies (of neighboring [I]Ethnicity and tribes that they felt were not of their own[/I]). In the end though, war between the tribes and nations was a product of slaves, and not the other way around as it had been before. Even then, if they did say no they would most likely have gotten captured by Europeans. You act as if all Blacks are of one race, surprise! They're not! In the US, yes it did become that "If you're Black you're a slave" but back in Africa it was because "you are not our ethnicity". And yes, in general when African Kingdoms had slaves they treated them far better than in the Colonies and eventually the US. But the point is not all Blacks were enslaved, nor were all Whites.[/QUOTE] no, but black people were taken as slaves indiscriminately and BECAUSE THEY WERE BLACK

[QUOTE=Hellduck;42631776] no, but black people were taken as slaves indiscriminately and BECAUSE THEY WERE BLACK[/QUOTE] I really don't think the first slavers went: "They're black, fucking enslaves those guys!". They were enslaved because they were easy targets.

[QUOTE=SuddenImpact;42631710]This thread is literally going nowhere.[/QUOTE] It goes inside itself. Literally in circles. New and new people storm in, without reading [b]anything[/b] that was posted before. Even the previous page.

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;42629650]Your argument is fucking retarded. I'm sorry, Rusty, I like you and all but I'm going to have to stop you right here and break it down for you. You're arguing against Zwarte Piet because it's essentially a caricature of black people, and that's bad in your opinion. He's not necessarily making them [i]look bad[/i] but he is a caricature and that's bad. Yet on the other hand... White Chicks is okay because white people were never enslaved or ridiculed, which isn't true at all but that's beside the point. This is a double standard. Both are racial caricatures. Both aren't actually ridiculing a specific race, but are instead using the black/white face for character substance. (Zwarte Piet stands the fuck out in any crowd, White Chicks is two black dudes masquerading as white women, so wacky) In fact, Zwarte Piet is such a fucking mishmash of different elements that have been combined into some clusterfuck of a character. He's supposed to be a freed slave who works for the guy who set him free, he's supposed to be Huginn and Muninn, and he's supposed to be an actual demon who's being forced to be a good person. Seriously, that's not even all of it, Dutch people can't even agree what the hell he is anyway, or why he's black. I asked the thirty odd Dutch people I know, nine said he's actually black, six said he's black from soot, (three added that Zwarte Piet is an orphan, so I guess this is a Dickensian legend now) two said he's Satan, one says he's an elf, (I guess elves are black) and the rest aren't sure or didn't reply. Even in this thread, the Dutch folks don't have a consistent story about him. The fact that a very, very small minority sees him as actively offensive to non-Caucasians is proof that he's not inherently racist. Or, at least, no more racist than White Chicks, or Dave Chapelle's generic white guy character.[/QUOTE] Thank you dude, I've been trying to figure out how to bring this double standard to light in this thread but was too stupid to do so, and I was a little afraid of being banned. Honestly I think this thread needs to get closed now because you can't even refute this.

[QUOTE=breakyourfac;42631909]Thank you dude, I've been trying to figure out how to bring this double standard to light in this thread but was too stupid to do so, and I was a little afraid of being banned. Honestly I think this thread needs to get closed now because you can't even refute this.[/QUOTE] Rusty's very idealistic, but not an asshole, why would he ban you for the argument?

[QUOTE=Hellduck;42631776] no, but black people were taken as slaves indiscriminately and BECAUSE THEY WERE BLACK[/QUOTE] And Slavs were taken indiscriminately because they were Slavs, your point being? The Europeans took them for that, but they were the consumer. The producers were the African tribes doing the initial enslavement because they weren't of their tribe or Ethnicity. Either way it's wrong, but you have to look at all facets of it.

[QUOTE=gudman;42631949]Rusty's very idealistic, but not an asshole, why would he ban you for the argument?[/QUOTE] Because I wasn't even arguing in the 2nd page just calling out pain on his bullshit and I've seen people get banned for less. Plus that would look really homo of me to be like 'yeah fuck this guys peace out' and then on the next page post a paragraph.

This is just what happens when you project the cultural ideals and opinions from one country over to another. Racism against black people isn't nearly as topical and prevalent in the Netherlands as it is in the US. On the other hand, there is a lot of friction between white people and arabic people. A joke about Islam or Allah that would be seen as hilarious in the US could result in a massive shitstorm in the Netherlands. Countries and attitudes are just massively different. You see a picture of black Pete and find it incredibly racist, and the Dutch population (including the black people) just don't get all the commotion. Some UN cunt tells the Dutch to do away with a massive part of cultural heritage and just be more like the US. Just start celebrating Santa Claus. If there's anything that's offensive about this whole affair, it's [i]that[/i].

[QUOTE=V12US;42632113]This is just what happens when you project the cultural ideals and opinions from one country over to another. Racism against black people isn't nearly as topical and prevalent in the Netherlands as it is in the US. On the other hand, there is a lot of friction between white people and arabic people. A joke about Islam or Allah that would be seen as hilarious in the US could result in a massive shitstorm in the Netherlands. Countries and attitudes are just massively different. You see a picture of black Pete and find it incredibly racist, and the Dutch population (including the black people) just don't get all the commotion. Some UN cunt tells the Dutch to do away with a massive part of cultural heritage and just be more like the US. Just start celebrating Santa Claus. If there's anything that's offensive about this whole affair, it's [i]that[/i].[/QUOTE] Exactly, just like in the gun debate threads when you've got a bunch of people from the UK saying 'but just ban guns, like why is it so hard we did it'. They don't understand the culture and its not up to somebody outside of your country to decide these things, its a massive insult. Nobody likes a foreigner telling them how they should run their country when 9/10 they've never even stepped foot in it.

i don't think anybody expects the Dutch to completely redefine their traditions just because some guy at the UN says so, just to admit that it's pretty offensive and the tradition has roots in racism. also it would probably help if half of you didn't call chocolate treats some inane variation of "nigger balls" but i digress

[QUOTE=breakyourfac;42632155]Exactly, just like in the gun debate threads when you've got a bunch of people from the UK saying 'but just ban guns, like why is it so hard we did it'. They don't understand the culture and its not up to somebody outside of your country to decide these things, its a massive insult. Nobody likes a foreigner telling them how they should run their country when 9/10 they've never even stepped foot in it.[/QUOTE] cultural relativism. eh

[QUOTE=Cone;42632577]i don't think anybody expects the Dutch to completely redefine their traditions just because some guy at the UN says so, just to admit that it's pretty offensive and the tradition has roots in racism. also it would probably help if half of you didn't call chocolate treats some inane variation of "nigger balls" but i digress[/QUOTE] "nigger kisses", but they're no longer allowed to be called "nigger kisses", they're just "kisses" now.

[QUOTE=breakyourfac;42631909]Thank you dude, I've been trying to figure out how to bring this double standard to light in this thread but was too stupid to do so, and I was a little afraid of being banned. Honestly I think this thread needs to get closed now because you can't even refute this.[/QUOTE]Thanks, guy. I'm not sure the thread should be closed, it should probably die on it's own, it's the only way a thread's corpse can become one with the internet spirits.[QUOTE=gudman;42631949]Rusty's very idealistic, but not an asshole, why would he ban you for the argument?[/QUOTE]Yeah, Rusty's a legit guy.[QUOTE=Cone;42632577]i don't think anybody expects the Dutch to completely redefine their traditions just because some guy at the UN says so, just to admit that it's pretty offensive and the tradition has roots in racism. also it would probably help if half of you didn't call chocolate treats some inane variation of "nigger balls" but i digress[/QUOTE]No, that's the Swedes. They're hella racist, didn't you know?

[QUOTE=benwaddi;42629213]Did you lobby for White Chicks to be banned? [IMG]http://blogs.bet.com/entertainment/whattheflick/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/white_chicks0.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE] omg why don't we have white, straight male pride parades!! misandry! heterosexism!

help theres a black man running through my house dropping presents everywhere

[QUOTE=Explosions;42630534]How is Santa a caricature? He's a guy who happens to be fat. The only allusion/jab at obesity is a vague reference to cookies. There's nothing else. This "Black Pete" character's appearance is a clear mockery of African features.[/QUOTE] It may be a portrayal of a black person, but it's clearly no longer a mockery. It definitely has racist origins, but society and tradition changes. As many people have stated, very very few dutch people find it racist, if they're not explicitly trying to harm/offend anyone than whats the problem? [editline]EVERYTHING IS RACIST[/editline] Also Blackface was/is only a thing in american culture.

Why is history so racist? I swear we should just ban it.

[QUOTE=sp00ks;42633065]omg why don't we have white, straight male pride parades!! misandry! heterosexism![/QUOTE] If you start ignoring certain types of racism are you really better than a racist?

[QUOTE=Megafan;42627791]Certainly not crying, but that's beside the point. You can't 'own' a culture.[/QUOTE] You can be a citizen of the one country that practices it.

Did I come back from a ban to find facepunch vehemently defending fucking blackface is this actually happening right now of course it's tradition, racism is tradition throughout europe and the americas doesn't mean we should keep it

[QUOTE=Zeke129;42634665]Did I come back from a ban to find facepunch vehemently defending fucking blackface is this actually happening right now of course it's tradition, racism is tradition throughout europe and the americas doesn't mean we should keep it[/QUOTE] Hello.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/z5DCRyq.gif[/img] this is my tradition, Bignose McGee He uses his big nose to dispense presents and happiness for children none of you are allowed to get upset at it

[QUOTE=Zeke129;42634718][img]http://i.imgur.com/z5DCRyq.gif[/img] this is my tradition, Bignose McGee He uses his big nose to dispense presents and happiness for children none of you are allowed to get upset at it[/QUOTE] Why does Bignose McGee have a dinosaur tail?

[QUOTE=Zeke129;42634718][img]http://i.imgur.com/z5DCRyq.gif[/img] this is my tradition, Bignose McGee He uses his big nose to dispense presents and happiness for children none of you are allowed to get upset at it[/QUOTE] its not racist, u just don;t understand my culture!1!! Also, I am celebrating the Day of the Spic this weekend. If anyone wants to join me, we're going to dress up our laziest friend in a sombrero and mustache, paint him brown, and have lots of fun with the family! It's not racist, it's my tradition.