Dutch 'Black Pete' Christmas custom may be racist, warns UN - Polidicks

The argument isn't that "It's not racist because it's tradition" it's "It's not racist because pop culture has changed the meaning away from racism".

[QUOTE=bdd458;42630129]You realize the word [I]Slave [/I]does come from the Root [I]Slav[/I]. Which is a group of White People. [/QUOTE]Uhh, that's debatable. Actually I'm pretty sure a large amount of people disagree with that.

[QUOTE=Stents*;42634796]The argument isn't that "It's not racist because it's tradition" it's "It's not racist because pop culture has changed the meaning away from racism".[/QUOTE] So if it's popular to celebrate a cartoony caricature of a greedy Jew, then it's not racist?

[QUOTE=Stents*;42634796]The argument isn't that "It's not racist because it's tradition" it's "It's not racist because pop culture has changed the meaning away from racism".[/QUOTE] pretty sure pop. culture circa 1950 didn't think segregation was racist either bro.

I mean, that's what you're saying right? "Pop culture" has transformed something that would otherwise be completely racist into something not racist simply due to popularity. And this is the same argument as the "traditions" argument. You're saying that certain customs of your culture make something not racist. That's the same argument.

[QUOTE=Explosions;42634853]So if it's popular to celebrate a cartoony caricature of a greedy Jew, then it's not racist?[/QUOTE] Only if the people celebrating it are using it to be racist. A good way to describe it would be "accidental racism"; you had no intent for something to be racist but that's how other people interpreted it. Except in this case Black Pete was at one point racist and the culture changed it.

I'm white and Sinterklaas offends me, please change it.

[QUOTE=Stents*;42634886]Only if the people celebrating it are using it to be racist. A good way to describe it would be "accidental racism"; you had no intent for something to be racist but that's how other people interpreted it. Except in this case Black Pete was at one point racist and the culture changed it.[/QUOTE] "I didn't think it was racist to make lazy Mexican jokes so it's OK!" Also, if the culture changed and adapted to accept the racism, that does not mean it isn't racist. You're telling me that the Dutch simply made an exception for Black Pete. In history, the character has always been accepted in Dutch culture. That's how he was created in the first place. However, as time went on, people became less accepting of racism. But instead of dropping such an obviously racist practice, the Dutch made an exception for it and continued on. This doesn't make the racism stop. Just because it's accepted does not remove the racism from the situation. All the other racist practices such as slavery and segregation are now not socially accepted, but this one is just because people haven't progressed past it. It's still racist. [editline]24th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Chernobyl426;42634890]I'm white and Sinterklaas offends me, please change it.[/QUOTE] Sinterklaas isn't a racist cartoon with a terrible history behind it. There is no overt and silly characterization of white people behind him. He's just an old man with a funny hat. You could change him to be any other race and nothing would change about him. The same cannot be said about Black Pete, whose exists solely to create a funny caricature of black slaves.

Oh gosh that didn't come out as I intended it. Let me give a better example. Volkswagen was originally created by Nazi Germany so that Germany produced all its own stuff. Volkswagen has kept the name and kept the look of their vehicles, but they obviously don't support Nazism anymore. Or similarly Planned Parenthood which originally supported eugenics; the idea that certain ethnicities should stop producing so that we can create the ultimate ethnicity. There's a reason they have the saying "Don't judge a book by it's cover".

[QUOTE=Stents*;42634976]Oh gosh that didn't come out as I intended it. Let me give a better example. Volkswagen was originally created by Nazi Germany so that Germany produced all its own stuff. Volkswagen has kept the name and kept the look of their vehicles, but they obviously don't support Nazism anymore. Or similarly Planned Parenthood which originally supported eugenics; the idea that certain ethnicities should stop producing so that we can create the ultimate ethnicity.[/QUOTE] If the car was called "JewKiller9000 v6 HeilHitler" and they refused to change the name, then yes, it would be unacceptable and you could claim that the company still supports Nazism. But it wasn't called that and it's not called that today. [editline]24th October 2013[/editline] There's nothing intrinsically linking Volkswagon to Nazism. Black Pete, however, is inseparable from racism. His entire character would not exist if not for racism. If the Dutch went ahead and removed the ridiculous Blackface features and actually portrayed him as a helped with soot on his face, then there would be no problem. It's the instance upon keeping a racist caricature that is the problem.

[QUOTE=Explosions;42635014]If the car was called "JewKiller9000 v6 HeilHitler" and they refused to change the name, then yes, it would be unacceptable and you could claim that the company still supports Nazism. But it wasn't called that and it's not called that today.[/QUOTE] Volkswagen literally translates to "People's Car" which was one of the idea's behind Nazism. I'm sure everyone in the Netherlands know the origin however, it doesn't seem to offend that many people since no ones celebrates Christmas by lynching black people. The intention of the tradition has changed, the only people who are getting offended are the ones who are unfamiliar with it. And I don't blame them, it looks like blackface, but not everything is what it seems.

[QUOTE=Stents*;42635077]Volkswagen literally translates to "People's Car" which was one of the idea's behind Nazism. I'm sure everyone in the Netherlands know the origin however, it doesn't seem to offend that many people since no ones celebrates Christmas by lynching black people. The intention of the tradition has changed, the only people who are getting offended are the ones who are unfamiliar with it. And I don't blame them, it looks like blackface, but not everything is what it seems.[/QUOTE] The idea of self-sufficiency is not limited to Nazism. The Volkswagen could have existed anywhere in the world outside of Nazi Germany with the exact same concepts behind it. In what non-racist culture could Black Pete come into existence? Also, the fact that "it doesn't seem to offend that many people" doesn't mean a damn thing. [editline]24th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=thejjokerr;42635103]Look, there's multiple theories why black pete looks the way he looks. There may have been a time where our people joked about it, racist. But for the last century it has been something different, he just looks that way. He has become its own character, why lego is yellow, but that doesnt mean its a racist representation of asians. I know of nobody in the netherlands who thinks our black pete is just a really a racist joke, we look at him like a character. If you grow up with it there is nothing racist and there is no reason to be. Like come on, there's a south park episode that completely describes this scenario, where we are the boys: [url]http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chef_Goes_Nanners[/url][/QUOTE] If the first Yellow Legos were created in order to make fun of Asians and made of mockery of Asian features then, yes, it would be racist. You're looking at this backwards. I'm not construing racism onto Black Pete, a character with a completely clean history unrelated to racism. He was created as a depiction of a slave who labored under Sinterklaas.

[QUOTE=Explosions;42635113]The idea of self-sufficiency is not limited to Nazism. The Volkswagen could have existed anywhere in the world outside of Nazi Germany with the exact same concepts behind it. In what non-racist culture could Black Pete come into existence? Also, the fact that "it doesn't seem to offend that many people" doesn't mean a damn thing.[/QUOTE] Actually it does mean a damn thing. Things only have meaning when people give the meaning. Originally people did give Black Pete a racist meaning but that has since changed. The Dutch people no longer give it a racist meaning, even if at one point it did. Not everything born out of misfortune is bad.

[QUOTE=Stents*;42635196]Actually it does mean a damn thing. Things only have meaning when people give the meaning. Originally people did give Black Pete a racist meaning but that has since changed. The Dutch people no longer give it a racist meaning, even if at one point it did. Not everything born out of misfortune is bad.[/QUOTE] I have already explained why this is wrong.

[QUOTE=Explosions;42635202]I have already explained why this is wrong.[/QUOTE] While you may be able to judge people based on their past you can't do the same for tradition. The people who originated Black Pete aren't the same people who celebrate it today, to criticize someone for something their ancestors did is ridiculous. Morals change throughout generations and so does tradition. The meaning is no longer anything involving race. I couldn't find where you already explained I was wrong, if you want to link/quote it to me I'd appreciate it.

[QUOTE=Stents*;42635308]While you may be able to judge people based on their past you can't do the same for tradition. The people who originated Black Pete aren't the same people who celebrate it today, to criticize someone for something their ancestors did is ridiculous. Morals change throughout generations and so does tradition. The meaning is no longer anything involving race. I couldn't find where you already explained I was wrong, if you want to link/quote it to me I'd appreciate it.[/QUOTE] I'm not criticizing people for the sins of their fathers. I agree that that's a horrible thing. But that's not what's happening here. Modern-day people in the Netherlands are continuing to perpetrate this obvious racism. I can't speak for the Dutch, but I hope that their morals don't include overt racism. That, however, is exactly what Black Pete is. It's a contradiction that has been swept aside, rather than being thrown out with all the other racist institutions of the past. The meaning is the same. And here's my earlier post: [QUOTE=Explosions;42634952]"I didn't think it was racist to make lazy Mexican jokes so it's OK!" Also, if the culture changed and adapted to accept the racism, that does not mean it isn't racist. You're telling me that the Dutch simply made an exception for Black Pete. In history, the character has always been accepted in Dutch culture. That's how he was created in the first place. However, as time went on, people became less accepting of racism. But instead of dropping such an obviously racist practice, the Dutch made an exception for it and continued on. This doesn't make the racism stop. Just because it's accepted does not remove the racism from the situation. All the other racist practices such as slavery and segregation are now not socially accepted, but this one is just because people haven't progressed past it. It's still racist.[/QUOTE] I explained why you think that Black Pete isn't racist but why he still actually is.

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;42634798]Uhh, that's debatable. Actually I'm pretty sure a large amount of people disagree with that.[/QUOTE] Well last I checked [I]every single one of my ancestors [/I] from the past 150 years is from a Slavic country and I'm white. There's no way in hell I could pass as any other race :eng101:

[QUOTE=Explosions;42635390]I'm not criticizing people for the sins of their fathers. I agree that that's a horrible thing. But that's not what's happening here. Modern-day people in the Netherlands are continuing to perpetrate this obvious racism. I can't speak for the Dutch, but I hope that their morals don't include overt racism. That, however, is exactly what Black Pete is. It's a contradiction that has been swept aside, rather than being thrown out with all the other racist institutions of the past. The meaning is the same. And here's my earlier post: I explained why you think that Black Pete isn't racist but why he still actually is.[/QUOTE] [img]http://www.thailandblog.nl/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/zeurpiet.jpg[/img]

[QUOTE=Zeke129;42634665]Did I come back from a ban to find facepunch vehemently defending fucking blackface is this actually happening right now of course it's tradition, racism is tradition throughout europe and the americas doesn't mean we should keep it[/QUOTE] I've been waiting for this moment for all my life, I knew you couldn't avoid this shitstorm of a debate. You see we carefully chose the thread topic, the wording of the thread. We went through all of this trouble just so you can show us your moral superiority. Its like the great Gatsby how he does all that shit to get Daisy's attention, it was all or you Zeke. Can't you see?

[QUOTE=breakyourfac;42635509]I've been waiting for this moment for all my life, I knew you couldn't avoid this shitstorm of a debate. You see we carefully chose the thread topic, the wording of the thread. We went through all of this trouble just so you can show us your moral superiority. Its like the great Gatsby how he does all that shit to get Daisy's attention, it was all or you Zeke. Can't you see?[/QUOTE] What a waste of a life.

[QUOTE=Explosions;42635390]I'm not criticizing people for the sins of their fathers. I agree that that's a horrible thing. But that's not what's happening here. Modern-day people in the Netherlands are continuing to perpetrate this obvious racism. I can't speak for the Dutch, but I hope that their morals don't include overt racism. That, however, is exactly what Black Pete is. It's a contradiction that has been swept aside, rather than being thrown out with all the other racist institutions of the past. The meaning is the same. And here's my earlier post: I explained why you think that Black Pete isn't racist but why he still actually is.[/QUOTE] While his origins are definitely racist they weren't ever that overt. He was originally a demon and at the time demons were portrayed to be black. It was never something like "black people are evil therefor the demon is black", at least not overtly. Some traditions change/die quickly some don't go without a fight. Black Pete being involved it what has become the words most celebrated holiday hes one that not going to go easily. Seriously, I don't think anyone in the Netherlands actually uses him to advocate racism. In fact as people earlier in this thread have stated, the explanation is now that hes covered in soot. It's still going to take a while to completely transform it away from the little that's left from its original meaning, but it's certainly easier than getting rid of the tradition all together.

[QUOTE=Stents*;42635556]While his origins are definitely racist they weren't ever that overt. He was originally a demon and at the time demons were portrayed to be black. It was never something like "black people are evil therefor the demon is black", at least not overtly. Some traditions change/die quickly some don't go without a fight. Black Pete being involved it what has become the words most celebrated holiday hes one that not going to go easily. Seriously, I don't think anyone in the Netherlands actually uses him to advocate racism. In fact as people earlier in this thread have stated, the explanation is now that hes covered in soot. It's still going to take a while to completely transform it away from the little that's left from its original meaning, but it's certainly easier than getting rid of the tradition all together.[/QUOTE] Why the hell is he still depicted as a racist cartoon, then? If he's supposed to be covered in soot, why the hell are his lips red and his clothing pristine? These excuses are literally some of the worst I've ever heard when it comes to racism justifications. The ONLY REASON why this is still a problem is because he's still just a guy in blackface, as he always has been. If the tradition has evolved, as you say, why don't people dress up in dirty elf clothes with actual "sooty face" makeup? Why do they continue to dress as a blackfaced, slave minstrel?

My point is that it's obviously starting to change, let natural progression do it's thing before trying to force anything, especially when you come from a completely different culture. [editline]24th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Explosions;42635588]Why the hell is he still depicted as a racist cartoon, then? If he's supposed to be covered in soot, why the hell are his lips red and his clothing pristine? These excuses are literally some of the worst I've ever heard when it comes to racism justifications. The ONLY REASON why this is still a problem is because he's still just a guy in blackface, as he always has been. If the tradition has evolved, as you say, why don't people dress up in dirty elf clothes with actual "sooty face" makeup? Why do they continue to dress as a blackfaced, slave minstrel?[/QUOTE] As I said it takes a while for these things to happen. You can't expect to have everyone who celebrates it to change all at once.

[QUOTE=breakyourfac;42635509]I've been waiting for this moment for all my life, I knew you couldn't avoid this shitstorm of a debate. You see we carefully chose the thread topic, the wording of the thread. We went through all of this trouble just so you can show us your moral superiority. Its like the great Gatsby how he does all that shit to get Daisy's attention, it was all or you Zeke. Can't you see?[/QUOTE] dude i know i'm not one to talk but when even [I]I[/I] think that post was a waste of time it's time to think a bit

[QUOTE=Stents*;42635591]My point is that it's obviously starting to change, let natural progression do it's thing before trying to force anything, especially when you come from a completely different culture. [editline]24th October 2013[/editline] As I said it takes a while for these things to happen. You can't expect to have everyone who celebrates it to change all at once.[/QUOTE] What is the holdup? Why does it take time to drop a dumb the stupid blackface? Just stop it. Change the costume. Why does this "take time"?

[QUOTE=Explosions;42635656]What is the holdup? Why does it take time to drop a dumb the stupid blackface? Just stop it. Change the costume. Why does this "take time"?[/QUOTE] Because it's a tradition and it's passed down. A few generations ago zwarte pieten used to talk with a Surinam-like accent. Pieten have slowly become less of a slave to Sinterklaas in the televised stories etc. The organizations behind the whole event are changing it, but can't change it too fast because it would cause a huge outcry from Dutch citizens. This stuff has to evolve, and it is. Slowly but gradually. Traditions don't change overnight, they evolve.

[QUOTE=Explosions;42635656]What is the holdup? Why does it take time to drop a dumb the stupid blackface? Just stop it. Change the costume. Why does this "take time"?[/QUOTE] What Marlamin said. People are resistant to change, they only change when they need to. So far there hasn't been a need to change it that far. Only recently has anyone gotten offended and that's only an EXTREMELY small group of people. Unless you can find me substantial proof that it his MODERN character is used to advocate racism then I don't see a problem. I'm gonna say it again, tradition changes slowly. Do you think that if people thought Santa looked better in green everyone would immediately start putting him in green?

I don't see why there would be such an outcry at the downfall of an obvious racist farce.

[QUOTE=Explosions;42635768]I don't see why there would be such an outcry at the downfall of an obvious racist farce.[/QUOTE] Because it's not obviously racist. Kids naturally don't see racism, and I haven't yet seen any evidence that the character is used in a racist way in marketing/pop culture. The only thing racist about the modern Black Pete is that it resembles Blackface which isn't something that ever spread to the Netherlands. [editline]24th October 2013[/editline] At this point in time most kids don't learn about racism until their teens. So it's not something that pops into their mind, and at that point it's already such an ingrained part of their childhood. [editline]24th October 2013[/editline] The only reason you see it as racist is because in American Culture blackface is known as something explicitly racist, in other cultures it isn't. Not all cultures are the same furthermore, its not your job to police other cultures when you are entirely uninformed about them.

[QUOTE=Explosions;42635768]I don't see why there would be such an outcry at the downfall of an obvious racist farce.[/QUOTE] Look up the ongoing drama regarding the Washington Redskins and their "obviously insulting and unacceptable" name/logo. It can be compared to that kind of outcry. Except the amount of people in the Netherlands crying over this is a fraction of the native americans crying over the Redskins stuff.