Dutch 'Black Pete' Christmas custom may be racist, warns UN - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Marlamin;42635849]Look up the ongoing drama regarding the Washington Redskins and their "obviously insulting and unacceptable" name/logo. It's can be compared to that kind of outcry. Except the amount of people in the Netherlands crying over this is a fraction of the native americans crying over the Redskins stuff.[/QUOTE] The name of the Redskins and their logo is obviously racist and needs to go. Also, the logic of your post doesn't add up. Of course the outcry of the Native Americans will be greater - they are the injured party. Why do you compare this to the "people in the Netherlands" who are white by a vast majority? Get the opinions of blacks in the Netherlands.

[QUOTE=Explosions;42635878]The name of the Redskins and their logo is obviously racist and needs to go. Also, the logic of your post doesn't add up. Of course the outcry of the Native Americans will be greater - they are the injured party. Why do you compare this to the "people in the Netherlands" who are white by a vast majority? Get the opinions of blacks in the Netherlands.[/QUOTE] I am talking about the "blacks" in the Netherlands. A dutch paper did a survey and nobody but a core group in Amsterdam really cares. Most of the outcry is internationally. But we've been over this already. And yes, the redskins stuff has to go, I wasn't putting that up for discussion. I meant regarding the outcry around it. Edit: Now excuse me, I'm off to bed. I need a good nights sleep to get creative for my sinterklaas poem writing.

[QUOTE=benwaddi;42629213]Did you lobby for White Chicks to be banned? [IMG]http://blogs.bet.com/entertainment/whattheflick/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/white_chicks0.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE] I don't know man but I feel this is kinda irrelevant to what you guys arguing about. I mean the equivalent thing for your example I can think of is like when Robert Downey, Jr. played a black man in Tropic Thunder. [img]http://cdn02.cdn.justjared.com/wp-content/uploads/headlines/2008/03/robert-downey-jr-black-man.jpg[/img]

[QUOTE=thisispain;42617265]the point being that your parents explained it to you in a politically correct way, because likely, even at age 6, youd raise your eyebrows slightly at having this dark-skinned man following around a saint[/QUOTE] LOL I LOVE YOU

just throwing this out there but I know nothing of black pete so the moment I saw the image in the OP I instantly thought that it looked VERY racist. So I can understand why people may "Misunderstand" the issue not to say it's racist or not, just simply, at an uninformed glance, it really stands out :v:

[QUOTE=J!NX;42637006]just throwing this out there but I know nothing of black pete so the moment I saw the image in the OP I instantly thought that it looked VERY racist. So I can understand why people may "Misunderstand" the issue not to say it's racist or not, just simply, at an uninformed glance, it really stands out :v:[/QUOTE] That pictures tells you all you need to know about the subject. Consider yourself informed.

[QUOTE=Explosions;42637068]That pictures tells you all you need to know about the subject. Consider yourself informed.[/QUOTE] No it doesn't. You're assuming too much too fast. Of course, someone that sees that would call out racism, but is it really the intent of it? in fact, when they made that character, did they even know about black skinned people? I've no idea what time it was made but what if it originated before the dutch had even known of africans? Could it have simply originally been a harmless soot joke that simply "Caught on for a long long time"? I know nothing of dutch anything, so I wouldn't know, but, as has been said, "Even the dutch have no idea what the idea of his blackness is"

[QUOTE=J!NX;42637082]No it doesn't. You're assuming too much too fast. Of course, someone that sees that would call out racism, but is it really the intent of it? in fact, when they made that character, did they even know about black skinned people? I've no idea what time it was made but what if it originated before the dutch had even known of africans? Could it have simply originally been a harmless soot joke that simply "Caught on for a long long time"? I know nothing of dutch anything, so I wouldn't know, but, as has been said, "Even the dutch have no idea what the idea of his blackness is"[/QUOTE] Did you read any of the other posts in this thread? First of all, it is widely acknowledged that Black Pete was originally a slave of Sinterklaas. Several Dutch people has said this so far, and even a modicum of research will reveal this fact. Secondly, it is hilarious to assume that Dutch people didn't know about black people. It actually made me laugh to read that. And thirdly, if you've ever seen blackface before, you'd know that this is not a "harmless soot joke." So don't assume that I assume.

[QUOTE=Explosions;42637867]Did you read any of the other posts in this thread? First of all, it is widely acknowledged that Black Pete was originally a slave of Sinterklaas. Several Dutch people has said this so far, and even a modicum of research will reveal this fact. Secondly, it is hilarious to assume that Dutch people didn't know about black people. It actually made me laugh to read that. And thirdly, if you've ever seen blackface before, you'd know that this is not a "harmless soot joke." So don't assume that I assume.[/QUOTE] I was very much refering to black face [t]http://kristineforpresident.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/sarahblackfacesmall.jpg[/t] [t]http://blackpetethedocumentary.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/blackPeteSlide2.jpg[/t] however, similarities do not imply similar intent. I'm simply stating to look further than appearances and look at the core of the matter and jump to conclusions. intent and historical reason as to why X is like X. Obviously there are things that could point to it not being racist, and I'm not saying it's racist or not, simply to see [I]why[/I] it's that way before jumping the gun, which is pretty much exactly what I thought it was (racist) when I entered the thread. Which is why people think it's racist.

I did go to the core of the matter dude. The historical intent behind this is that Black Pete was a slave of Sinterklaas. I don't know what else you want me to say. He was a moorish slave from Spain. The rest of the Sinterklaas lore fits this perfectly. The picture is pretty clear.

Well I just bumped into this thread, curieusly what people ouside the netherlands think about this. I had to register, to ..give you another point of view. A possible Surinam point of view I am actually a Surinam darkskinnend guy, borned and raised in Holland. I too celibrated this event throughout my youth. The thing is, even where there is a native Englisch forum Dutch people rush in to tell you the following things: Its a childerns event! Its not racist, because he came out of the chimney I never heard from any black person they find it offensive Well, let me tell you whats up with this"zwarte piet "thing in holland now. Ill start with the negative and get postive along the story allright? In the "past (like 20 plus years ago) Zwarte Piet(black pete) was indeed projected as a ..well pff black person in a funny way, similiar to the stereoptypical asian picture I have seen in this thread. The zwarte Piet spoke with a funny accent f.e. Thats why some people drwa this comparison between Zwarte piet and actuall black people. A lot of black people will tell you that the word(WORD) "Zwarte Piet"has been used to ridicule one. To a certain extend it can become similiar(!!!) to the word "nigger" for a African American guy. It might get the EXACT same meaning! That where the anger comes from. Thereby , as mentioned before the image is similiar to the black faces in the states. Hold up Dutch people ,. not finished yet, just explaining a part of this discussion that you otherwise might never hear! I can tell you, borned and raised in Holland and moved all through the country, beeing a black guy is still something "special" in Holland. I see you guys argue wether the word "neger" is normal or offensive. What if I tell you , that a "white"( hate to use colours but oke) person employed by a "black" person says something like "goodmorging neger!" just like that out of the blue? Hahaha no that wont happen. Hell he will get fired! That tells you how offensive it might(MIGHT) be. Its complicated. I have ex girls whom called me "neger". It kind of shocked me somehow, but I got used to it and let it slide. "Ïts oke, its my girl." Often people ask me "how must I call a black person"or they say"it was a big neger, yeah sorry but thats how you call it right?" You see, we dont have a "sophisticated"word like African American. You might start to feel why this is blowing up so big. Why are there black people in Holland? Because they had colonies . In surinam(small country next to Brasil) we ALL speak Dutch, in a way you can compare to "British Englisch vs USA English" , and you might add a Jamacian accent to it.. Holland has almost 17 mil people, almost 2,5 mil are "immigrants"or have "immigrant blood" . Important to know is that Surinam , and Antilian people are very aware of their "role". I dont want to sound radical, by saying they want to "obey" Dutch people. But there still is this feeling..every Dutch immigrant will tell you he had to work twice as hard , you know the story. A lot of Surinam people dont want to be compared with "the bad people" so they'll teach there kids fluent Dutch. If you spoke "[I]sranang[/I]"(native language) you even got punished! Why i am saying this? Because i saw a movie of Surinam peolpe celibrating this event . I am trying to say, that a lot of Surinam people wont publicly challange ANYTHING Dutch. They might, they start to , but its nit something common. Roughly said; if yoy want the "good life"you gotta do bizz with the Dutch. So just obey, and shut up. The strange thing in Holland is that racism is something thats also behind the curtains. Recently the most right (rebublican-ish) party grew spectacular! Though I can tell you, no Dutch( white sorry) person will say "I HATE black people". No way! And sometimes I meet a girl who had never been with a black guy, but thinks I am kinda cool hehe ;-) Sometimes they say their parents would kill them...just beeing honoust ;-) They(Dutch people) actually like "black" music food clothes and so on. Its similiar to the States I think. But If you see a black and a white guy beeing best freinds ever, you will still hear John Lennon sing on the background. Untill one day you are "just cool with it" and wont even notice. I have to say, in the west (where most of the "immigrants" live) its a more common thing then elsewhere. So whats the problem? Dutch people are racist? No way!! They are indeed openminded , you can smoke weed, start a Islamic organization or whatever religion you like and much more. But realise; they major wave of immigrants traveled towards Holland in the 70'ies, 80'ies. So its "just" so many years we are mixed. My mother was borned and raised in Surinam , I am the first generation who grew up here. Its getting too long. I just want to give you guys some insights about this. I might end with this: The scary thing is that people are not willing to change it, but still are not racist in their core. Beeing a racist is something despicable. And thats why so many people jump up. They dont want to be called like that! On the other hand, its hard to understand why people are so persistant on keeping the black faces, while multiple clours where suggested several times. Its still far from over it seems. People waking up slowly it seems. Personally as a young father I can understand the power of this event. Its a complicated thing.

[QUOTE=thejjokerr;42633219]We have "nigger kisses", and again the word nigger isn't offensive here as it is in the US, we just use it as a word, because that's what it is. Words aren't racist, people are.[/QUOTE]I know, that was the joke. He said "nigger balls" and Sweden actually has a thing called negerbollar. Yep, they're candy.[QUOTE=Explosions;42635014]There's nothing intrinsically linking Volkswagon to Nazism. Black Pete, however, is inseparable from racism. His entire character would not exist if not for racism. If the Dutch went ahead and removed the ridiculous Blackface features and actually portrayed him as a helped with soot on his face, then there would be no problem. It's the instance upon keeping a racist caricature that is the problem.[/QUOTE]Why? Why is he racist? Because he's a black character played by people who have been historically white as a fucking bed sheet? [b]Literally the only fucking thing that is black about the character is his skin color.[/b] He's not a caricature of black stereotypes, he's making any social commentary about blacks with his behavior or attire, in fact, he's not really black at all. As I've previously explained, Zwarte Piet is an amalgamation of several different characters and traditions, from Odin's twin ravens, to Moors, to Satan himself having been tricked to do good deeds. You're focused on his skin color [i]so much[/i] that you're actually starting to sound like having black characters in anything is a bad thing. I realize you're not saying that, because that would be unbelievably unacceptable, but I hope you can see where I'm coming from.[QUOTE=Explosions;42635113]If the first Yellow Legos were created in order to make fun of Asians and made of mockery of Asian features then, yes, it would be racist. You're looking at this backwards. I'm not construing racism onto Black Pete, a character with a completely clean history unrelated to racism. He was created as a depiction of a slave who labored under Sinterklaas.[/QUOTE]Wait, what? First you were pissed about the blackface for several posts. Now you're saying the character has a completely clean history unrelated to racism. ... but he's also a slave who labored under Sinterklaas? I don't fucking understand! Anyway, in the "slave" version, he's a former slave whom Sinterklaas frees, sometimes after hearing his wish to be free, and Zwarte Piet is so thankful he decides to work for Sinterklaas.[QUOTE=Explosions;42637867]Did you read any of the other posts in this thread?[/QUOTE]Did you? I've pretty much conclusively laid the issue to rest. He's a black character. Sort of. Even if he was thoroughly black, like, from Africa black and the whole character has this story of how he grew up in Timbuktu and shit, it wouldn't matter. Zwarte Piet's costume is blackface, something that has never had the racial connotations it has in the United States. We, as Americans, see it and we're automatically alarmed because our exposure to racism [i]through [u]our[/u] culture[/i] tells us that it is unacceptable. However, in Dutch culture, this black man from Timbuktu is doing things that aren't in any way a caricature of racist stereotypes. The only part about his costume that implies anything racial is his skin color, something that would have historically been painted on because surprise! ethnic Dutch are white. There is nothing inherently racist about painting your own goddamn skin any fucking color! Nothing at all. Bodypaint is not fucking racist by itself, you need [b]CONTEXT.[/b] In this culture, the Dutch culture, there is no fucking racist context! You could compare it to children dousing themselves in black paint because they want to play Boyz n the Hood and every single one of the main characters are, you guessed it, African American. There's no fucking way they know the greater sociopolitical ramifications of painting their skin because they have no goddamn context or idea to apply it to in the first place. Oh, and I'm fairly fucking certain people with darker-than-Caucasian skin need to paint up in actual black paint anyway to play Zwarte Piet because [i]it's part of the character, who is basically a goddamn mythical being for children.[/i] So drop your perceptions that are wrapped up in our fucking culture and make a goddamn attempt to look at it from a Dutch perspective; a perspective that has not had our systematic and institutionalized racism for decades.

haven't people continuously said the 'slave' had been treated way way way better than blacks had it in america? [QUOTE=sjabbe;42637969]-long-[/QUOTE] I have to say for a first post you did a good job. Enjoy Facepunch.

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;42637979]I know, that was the joke. He said "nigger balls" and Sweden actually has a thing called negerbollar. Yep, they're candy.Why? Why is he racist? Because he's a black character played by people who have been historically white as a fucking bed sheet? [b]Literally the only fucking thing that is black about the character is his skin color.[/b] He's not a caricature of black stereotypes, he's making any social commentary about blacks with his behavior or attire, in fact, he's not really black at all. As I've previously explained, Zwarte Piet is an amalgamation of several different characters and traditions, from Odin's twin ravens, to Moors, to Satan himself having been tricked to do good deeds. You're focused on his skin color [i]so much[/i] that you're actually starting to sound like having black characters in anything is a bad thing. I realize you're not saying that, because that would be unbelievably unacceptable, but I hope you can see where I'm coming from.Wait, what? First you were pissed about the blackface for several posts. Now you're saying the character has a completely clean history unrelated to racism. ... but he's also a slave who labored under Sinterklaas? I don't fucking understand! Anyway, in the "slave" version, he's a former slave whom Sinterklaas frees, sometimes after hearing his wish to be free, and Zwarte Piet is so thankful he decides to work for Sinterklaas.Did you? I've pretty much conclusively laid the issue to rest. He's a black character. Sort of. Even if he was thoroughly black, like, from Africa black and the whole character has this story of how he grew up in Timbuktu and shit, it wouldn't matter. Zwarte Piet's costume is blackface, something that has never had the racial connotations it has in the United States. We, as Americans, see it and we're automatically alarmed because our exposure to racism [i]through [u]our[/u] culture[/i] tells us that it is unacceptable. However, in Dutch culture, this black man from Timbuktu is doing things that aren't in any way a caricature of racist stereotypes. The only part about his costume that implies anything racial is his skin color, something that would have historically been painted on because surprise! ethnic Dutch are white. There is nothing inherently racist about painting your own goddamn skin any fucking color! Nothing at all. Bodypaint is not fucking racist by itself, you need [b]CONTEXT.[/b] In this culture, the Dutch culture, there is no fucking racist context! You could compare it to children dousing themselves in black paint because they want to play Boyz n the Hood and every single one of the main characters are, you guessed it, African American. There's no fucking way they know the greater sociopolitical ramifications of painting their skin because they have no goddamn context or idea to apply it to in the first place. Oh, and I'm fairly fucking certain people with darker-than-Caucasian skin need to paint up in actual black paint anyway to play Zwarte Piet because [i]it's part of the character, who is basically a goddamn mythical being for children.[/i] So drop your perceptions that are wrapped up in our fucking culture and make a goddamn attempt to look at it from a Dutch perspective; a perspective that has not had our systematic and institutionalized racism for decades.[/QUOTE] You might not be ware how much Dutch culture is "looking at big bro "America. Let me tell you, if something is fromthe States and its a hit( music movies food and so on) it "[I]must be good[/I]". Thats why this "symbol"of Piet is so powerfull to some. Dont think Black people in Holland are not familair with "Black" american history. Surinam, older folks for example are almost indentical to African American people! Its scary! They even listen to the "black"music from that era througout there whole live. The thing is I cant say Surinam is my "homeland". I was borned and raced here. You see where i am pointing at? Black people in Holland are , just like white people, very similiar to American people in there main behaviour. Still it feels like "the son is standing up aganist daddy", now slowly protest are coming in. [editline]25th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=J!NX;42638022]haven't people continuously said the 'slave' had been treated way way way better than blacks had it in america? I have to say for a first post you did a good job. Enjoy Facepunch.[/QUOTE] Thanx just try to clearify some things here and there. Well, The slavery was a ugly time offcourse, and there is much to be said. No, the treatment was never better. But its not about that I think. Its about recognition. Thats a strange thing right? I mean, its all over now . Whats left to say!! Thats the issue right now, its goes SO MUCH deeper. Yes, I think you might compare it to situation back then in The States. F.e; Lately(like yesterday) Surinam has "charged" Holland to pay 30 bilion!! as , lets say "historical satisfaction". I think the timing is a little unfortunate, with the other stuff going on. But Surinam is just 30 years old, they are still "ängry"with Holland for the histrorical events that happened. Its like a family fight, seriously.

[QUOTE=bdd458;42635407]Well last I checked [I]every single one of my ancestors [/I] from the past 150 years is from a Slavic country and I'm white. There's no way in hell I could pass as any other race :eng101:[/QUOTE] Way to miss the point of my post Let me bold, italicize, and underline the main idea [B][I][U]Many people debate over whether slav derives from the word slave.[/U][/I][/B]

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;42638109]Way to miss the point of my post Let me bold, italicize, and underline the main idea [B][I][U]Many people debate over whether slav derives from the word slave.[/U][/I][/B][/QUOTE] [url]http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/slave#Etymology[/url] [url]http://foreigndispatches.typepad.com/dispatches/2004/10/slav_an_etymolo.html[/url] [url]http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=slave[/url] [url]http://www.wordcentral.com/cgi-bin/student?slave[/url] yup, really debated. Essentially the Latin name for Slavic peoples came to be used to describe slaves because Slavic Slaves were so common. That then turned into Slave in English from that point.

[QUOTE=Explosions;42637867]Did you read any of the other posts in this thread? First of all, it is widely acknowledged that Black Pete was originally a slave of Sinterklaas. Several Dutch people has said this so far, and even a modicum of research will reveal this fact. Secondly, it is hilarious to assume that Dutch people didn't know about black people. It actually made me laugh to read that. And thirdly, if you've ever seen blackface before, you'd know that this is not a "harmless soot joke." So don't assume that I assume.[/QUOTE] The most common told story is that Black Pete was a slave, bought free by Sinterklaas, who decided to serve Sinterklaas from then on, out of his own free will.

[QUOTE=mobrockers;42640670]The most common told story is that Black Pete was a slave, bought free by Sinterklaas, who decided to serve Sinterklaas from then on, out of his own free will.[/QUOTE] That doesn't really make it a positive thing. Its been a common trope throughout the recent centuries for it to be the "white man's burden" to save the black person.

So he's like Django but he gives presents and doesn't kill people

[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;42616979]It's fun to watch clueless retards judge something. He's black because of the goddamn soot, not because they're black slaves. Fun fact: A similar tradition from Iran is considered "protected heritage".[/QUOTE] Did the soot also give him comically bright lips and curly hair in the exact same manner as blackface, or is the soot excuse just a cheap cop-out explanation for a character that has historically been depicted as a black servant?

[QUOTE=V12US;42630491]Ban Santa Claus because he's a fat guy in a funny suit. Doesn't matter that everyone believes he's a nice guy who gives presents and spreads joy and happiness. He's a caricature of a fat person and that's terrible and offensive.[/QUOTE] a bit late here, but fat people aren't a race! did i just blow your mind? [editline]26th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=joost1120;42631189]But he doesn't. Black Pete is black because of the soot in chimneys. I could go on the street and ask anyone why Black Pete is black and they would tell me it's because of the soot in the chimneys they climb through.[/QUOTE] yeah sorry that's a modern day lie. read the history of the holiday and it's plain as day he has very racist origins [editline]26th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Zeke129;42634718][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/z5DCRyq.gif[/IMG] this is my tradition, Bignose McGee He uses his big nose to dispense presents and happiness for children none of you are allowed to get upset at it[/QUOTE] ^ this x1000

noone in the netherlands associates zwarte piet with black people, everyone as a child is thought that zwarte piet goes through the chimney because obviously sinterklaas is an old dude. i've seen surinam children with the zwarte piet makeup because noone relates zwarte piet to black people and its just from an American point of view that they immediatelly associate it with blackface. in Surinam and the Dutch antilles where the majority of the population is black they also celebrate sinterklaas and the guy being sinterklaas gets painted white and the petes get painted black or sometimes a mix of blue and red or whatever color fits your outfit. isnt columbusday celebrated in the us? the holocaust of indians and why is santa fat?

Black people is a race now?? I thought they was homo sapiens with a darker pigment in their skin but I guess evolution caught up!!

[QUOTE=Zeemlapje;42640948]Black people is a race now?? I thought they was homo sapiens with a darker pigment in their skin but I guess evolution caught up!![/QUOTE] are you serious right now yeh obviously dude! all that racism that happened before? never happened. why? it had no reason to! we are all the same on the inside :)

[QUOTE=Rusty100;42640901] yeah sorry that's a modern day lie. read the history of the holiday and it's plain as day he has very racist origins [/QUOTE] I know this is hard to believe, but meanings [I]can[/I] change. Nothing is static, ever.

given the way history moves foward, i wouldn't be one bit surprised if people in future studying culture or something looked back and thought everyone arguing in favor of "black pete" was some kind of horrible backwards bigot/victim of its time(as in utterly misguided) in the future. remember that several "progressive" things in the past became horribly racist with the passage time.

[QUOTE=bdd458;42640979]I know this is hard to believe, but meanings [I]can[/I] change. Nothing is static, ever.[/QUOTE] True, but try using that as an excuse to fly a swastika and see how far it gets you. Even if you're Hindu and in your culture it has no offensive meaning, there are [i]other[/i] people who do not hold that view who will be offended. Same with Black Pete. It doesn't really matter if the overwhelmingly white Dutch have ignored its racist connotations if they're apparent to everyone else.

[QUOTE=catbarf;42641113]True, but try using that as an excuse to fly a swastika and see how far it gets you. Even if you're Hindu and in your culture it has no offensive meaning, there are [i]other[/i] people who do not hold that view who will be offended. Same with Black Pete. It doesn't really matter if the overwhelmingly white Dutch have ignored its racist connotations if they're apparent to everyone else.[/QUOTE] It's not just white Dutch, it's nearly pretty much every Dutch citizen. There are about 200 people who filed an official complaint, this is of course not the total number of people who have a problem with it, but even if it's 10 times that amount (which I sincerely doubt), that's nothing. It means that nearly every single Dutch person has no problem with Black Pete. There's no reason for you to make a distinction between White Dutch citizens and non-white Dutch citizens.

[QUOTE=catbarf;42641113]True, but try using that as an excuse to fly a swastika and see how far it gets you. Even if you're Hindu and in your culture it has no offensive meaning, there are [i]other[/i] people who do not hold that view who will be offended. Same with Black Pete. It doesn't really matter if the overwhelmingly white Dutch have ignored its racist connotations if they're apparent to everyone else.[/QUOTE] comparing zwarte piet with swastikas lolk.

[QUOTE=catbarf;42641113]True, but try using that as an excuse to fly a swastika and see how far it gets you. Even if you're Hindu and in your culture it has no offensive meaning, there are [i]other[/i] people who do not hold that view who will be offended. Same with Black Pete. It doesn't really matter if the overwhelmingly white Dutch have ignored its racist connotations if they're apparent to everyone else.[/QUOTE] to be fair, hindus don't "fly" a swastika, they use it as a symbol on temples, even germany lets hindus use the swastika, and you know how they are with swastikas. the swastika was originally some good, and still means that something good for the original group that made it, you can't say that about black pete.