Dutch 'Black Pete' Christmas custom may be racist, warns UN - Polidicks

[QUOTE=RichyZ;42641174]lel the dutch are renowned to be super duper racist i mean fuck when i think of slavery i think of the dutch[/QUOTE] Slavery, sure, but why racism?

[QUOTE=catbarf;42641113]True, but try using that as an excuse to fly a swastika and see how far it gets you. Even if you're Hindu and in your culture it has no offensive meaning, there are [i]other[/i] people who do not hold that view who will be offended. Same with Black Pete. It doesn't really matter if the overwhelmingly white Dutch have ignored its racist connotations if they're apparent to everyone else.[/QUOTE] How is it apparently racist? Is it because it's blackface, which mind you, is mostly entirely an American cultural phenomenon?

[QUOTE=Protocol7;42641189]How is it apparently racist? Is it because it's blackface, which mind you, is mostly entirely an American cultural phenomenon?[/QUOTE] it is in no way isolated to america

[QUOTE=Wizards Court;42641160]the swastika was originally some good, and still means that something good for the original group that made it, you can't say that about black pete.[/QUOTE] from what the people in this thread have said, I think that yes, they can

[QUOTE=Rusty100;42641215]it is in no way isolated to america[/QUOTE] I didn't say that, I said it's an American phenomenon. I.E. it has its roots in American culture.

[QUOTE=Protocol7;42641224]I didn't say that, I said it's an American phenomenon. I.E. it has its roots in American culture.[/QUOTE] Also false

[QUOTE=IceBlizzard;42640924]noone in the netherlands associates zwarte piet with black people, everyone as a child is thought that zwarte piet goes through the chimney because obviously sinterklaas is an old dude. i've seen surinam children with the zwarte piet makeup because noone relates zwarte piet to black people and its just from an American point of view that they immediatelly associate it with blackface. in Surinam and the Dutch antilles where the majority of the population is black they also celebrate sinterklaas and the guy being sinterklaas gets painted white and the petes get painted black or sometimes a mix of blue and red or whatever color fits your outfit. isnt columbusday celebrated in the us? the holocaust of indians and why is santa fat?[/QUOTE] But you can make literally the same argument about columbus day. Most americans dont associate it with the genocide of indians, and that means its not bad?

[QUOTE=Wizards Court;42641073]given the way history moves foward, i wouldn't be one bit surprised if people in future studying culture or something looked back and thought everyone arguing in favor of "black pete" was some kind of horrible backwards bigot/victim of its time(as in utterly misguided) in the future. remember that several "progressive" things in the past became horribly racist with the passage time.[/QUOTE] I wouldn't be surprised if everything we do now would be seen as a bad thing in the future.

[QUOTE=mobrockers;42641403]I wouldn't be surprised if everything we do now would be seen as a bad thing in the future.[/QUOTE] i wouldn't say EVERYTHING, but quite a bit, yeah.

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;42641401]But you can make literally the same argument about columbus day. Most americans dont associate it with the genocide of indians, and that means its not bad?[/QUOTE] Actually most americans do and I have never in my life heard Columbus Day mentioned without the background of genocide. Maybe when I first learned of the day back in 1st grade or something, but since then I was told, in school, mind you, that Columbus was an evil man and a murderer.

[QUOTE=RichyZ;42641174]lel the dutch are renowned to be super duper racist i mean fuck when i think of slavery i think of the dutch[/QUOTE] We're not renowned to be super racist. Slavery sure, but not racism. -snip confused the abolishment of slavery in the Netherlands with the ban of slave trade in the Netherlands-

Regardless, eve if we did celebrate Columbus, that wouldn't justify further racism.

[QUOTE=Explosions;42641378]Also false[/QUOTE] No it's fucking not. What we call Blackface theater started in the US. It spread yes, but it's roots are with the US. People were painting themselves black to portray black characters before that, yes. But the important part of what we call "Blackface" is the charicature part which Elizabethan and Jacobean theater lacked. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface[/url] [Quote=Wikipedia]Blackface was an important performance tradition in the American theater for roughly 100 years beginning around 1830. It quickly became popular elsewhere, particularly so in Britain, where the tradition lasted longer than in the US, occurring on primetime TV as late as 1978[/quote] And even more [quote=Wikipedia]The Netherlands and Belgium continue to celebrate St. Nicolas Eve with Sinterklaas accompanied by multiple Zwarte Pieten in the form of adolescents boys (and sometimes girls) who use black make-up and who wear Moorish page boy costumes. The Zwarte Piet character has been tracked back to the middle of the 19th century when Jan Schenkman, a popular children's book author, added an African servant to the Sinterklaas story. Zwarte Piet as a depiction of a moorish page resembles many of the classic darky icons,[151] and visitors are often shocked at the sight of whites made up in what appears to be classic blackface.[152] Internal opposition to the practice is growing and some of the stereotypical elements have been toned down in recent decades.[152] Journalist Brenda Stoter Boscolo remarks upon this in an article on the Dutch site Joop.nl [153] "attempts through the years to give Piet another color never took hold, but through the years the custom to wear large golden earrings did disappear". The tradition has continued to evolve, and already in the 1950s, Zwarte Piet's black skin has been said to have come from climbing down the chimney to place the gifts. As another example of the evolution of the Zwarte Piet tradition, V&D and Blokker, two of the largest retail chain stores in the Netherlands use pictures of kids with ash-smudged cheeks in their sales catalogues instead of Piet with full black make-up, frizzy hair, and big red lips[/quote]

[QUOTE=Explosions;42641378]Also false[/QUOTE] If you want to be a pedantic idiot, no, it's not born in America, but it was mostly popularized in American film, TV and theatre.

[QUOTE=Protocol7;42641468]If you want to be a pedantic idiot, no, it's not born in America, but it was mostly popularized in American film, TV and theatre.[/QUOTE] It's not being pedantic, it's noticing that both blackface and this "Black Pete" character stem from the same racist characterization of black people

[QUOTE=IceBlizzard;42641159]comparing zwarte piet with swastikas lolk.[/QUOTE] Okay, how about the Confederate flag? Most people who fly it aren't associating it with slavery, and of course meanings can change, as nowadays it's used as a symbol of the South or individual liberty or whatever. Yet neither fact excuses its use when [i]other people[/i] see it and take offense over its original connotations.

[QUOTE=Explosions;42641493]It's not being pedantic, it's noticing that both blackface and this "Black Pete" character stem from the same racist characterization of black people[/QUOTE] Black face paint is not immediately racist. The characters portrayed in American blackface are more often than not racist and that's where that connotation comes from. Zwarte Piet is not an anti-black character, and pointing fingers saying "well it's used for racist purposes in American culture et al" does not mean it's fucking racist. Whatever happened to racial equality? You all should be fucking happy that a dark-skinned character has a relatively significant role in Dutch culture. Not this stupid "das racist" shit.

How about Ice-Cube goes over and plays Zwarte Piet, will that make you feel better?

[QUOTE=catbarf;42641505]Okay, how about the Confederate flag? Most people who fly it aren't associating it with slavery, and of course meanings can change, as nowadays it's used as a symbol of the South or individual liberty or whatever. Yet neither fact excuses its use when [i]other people[/i] see it and take offense over its original connotations.[/QUOTE] Most [I]other people[/I] in this case are [I]foreigners[/I] who wouldn't even be confronted by this celebration as it's primarily celebrated in countries where the majority of the population, including black people, [B]has no problem with it[/B].

[QUOTE=Protocol7;42641520]Black face paint is not immediately racist. The characters portrayed in American blackface are more often than not racist and that's where that connotation comes from. Zwarte Piet is not an anti-black character, and pointing fingers saying "well it's used for racist purposes in American culture et al" does not mean it's fucking racist. Whatever happened to racial equality? You all should be fucking happy that a dark-skinned character has a relatively significant role in Dutch culture. Not this stupid "das racist" shit.[/QUOTE] Blackface is racist because it makes a mockery of black people by using stereotypical features in their portrayal.

[QUOTE=Explosions;42641546]Blackface is racist because it makes a mockery of black people by using stereotypical features in their portrayal.[/QUOTE] No, blackface is racist because it has [I]historically[/I] been used to make a mockery of black people by using their stereotypical features in their portrayal. Guess what's not the case for our buddy Zwarte Piet.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;42634718][img]http://i.imgur.com/z5DCRyq.gif[/img][/QUOTE] I can't believe this shit

[QUOTE=catbarf;42641505]Okay, how about the Confederate flag? Most people who fly it aren't associating it with slavery, and of course meanings can change, as nowadays it's used as a symbol of the South or individual liberty or whatever. Yet neither fact excuses its use when [i]other people[/i] see it and take offense over its original connotations.[/QUOTE] People who fly the confederate flag are either racist or ignorant. In that respect, I guess it's actually a pretty good comparison to Black Pete. [editline]25th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Protocol7;42641557]No, blackface is racist because it has [I]historically[/I] been used to make a mockery of black people by using their stereotypical features in their portrayal. Guess what's not the case for our buddy Zwarte Piet.[/QUOTE] The curly hair? The painted red lips to accentuate their size? And this is not playing off racist stereotypes?

[QUOTE=Explosions;42641573]People who fly the confederate flag are either racist or ignorant. In that respect, I guess it's actually a pretty good comparison to Black Pete.[/QUOTE] Does most of the black population in those areas participate in flying this flag, and having no problem with it? If not, it's not comparable at all.

It's hilarious how the pretty much only people who throw a fit about this are the ones who are never involved with it and will probably forget about the whole shebang a few weeks after this argument has settled down.

[QUOTE=mobrockers;42641581]Does most of the black population in those areas participate in flying this flag, and having no problem with it? If not, it's not comparable at all.[/QUOTE] That is completely irrevant. The concept of racism is not defined by public opinion or acknowdgement. In any case, there are some black people who, in a sickeningly ironic twist, actually fly the confederate flag.

[QUOTE=Explosions;42641616]That is completely irrevant. The concept of racism is not defined by public opinion or acknowdgement. In any case, there are some black people who, in a sickeningly ironic twist, actually fly the confederate flag.[/QUOTE] Some is not 99%, and that's just complete bullshit, if no one thinks it's racist (even the people you think it's racist agains), then it's not fucking racist.

[QUOTE=Bokito;42641604]It's hilarious how the pretty much only people who throw a fit about this are the ones who are never involved with it and will probably forget about the whole shebang a few weeks after this argument has settled down.[/QUOTE] Actually, because of the research I put into this Dutch tradition, I don't ever think I will forget it. I don't think I'll ever forget the Turkish saint and his gang of slave minstrels who kidnap children and bring them to Spain in a burlap sack. [editline]25th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=mobrockers;42641639]Some is not 99%, and that's just complete bullshit, if no one thinks it's racist (even the people you think it's racist agains), then it's not fucking racist.[/QUOTE] Ha

The kidnapping of children to Spain faded out of existance a long-ass time ago.

[QUOTE=Explosions;42641640]Actually, because of the research I put into this Dutch tradition, I don't ever think I will forget it. I don't think I'll ever forget the Turkish saint and his gang of slave minstrels who kidnap children and bring them to Spain in a burlap sack. [editline]25th October 2013[/editline] Ha[/QUOTE] reading a wikipedia page isnt research