Dutch 'Black Pete' Christmas custom may be racist, warns UN - Polidicks

[QUOTE=IceBlizzard;42641681]reading a wikipedia page isnt research[/QUOTE] You're right. I had to struggle through a few badly translated Dutch articles to get the real picture.

[QUOTE=Explosions;42641694]You're right. I had to struggle through a few badly translated Dutch articles to get the real picture.[/QUOTE] so you read a few badly translated articles and a wiki page and came to the conclusion that zwarte piet is basically blackface and every year on december 5th the dutch celebrate slavery blackface as americans know it doesnt even exist in the netherlands, [B]noone associates zwarte piet with black people[/B] and there is only a very low amount of people in the netherlands that are against it, why do you care if the majority if the people in the netherlands (including darker skinned dutch people) don't even care

Oh god, we've come full circle once again. Nothing is going to change on short term, the UN can literally do nothing about it and have already dropped the charges. Only a few people in the Netherlands think it's racist. 99% of black people in the Netherlands don't think it's racist (in the way it personally offends them). There is barely any racism or race differenciating between white and black people in the Netherlands. Can we just respect that other cultures have other traditions and leave it at that?

[QUOTE=Explosions;42641573]The curly hair? The painted red lips to accentuate their size? And this is not playing off racist stereotypes?[/QUOTE] Assuming it is supposed to be a racist stereotype, what then? Are stereotypes inherently evil? More importantly how is black skin a racial stereotype when that's literally the defining feature of people of African descent. It's not like the Zwarte Piet festivities include whipping Zwarte Piet and calling him a dirty slave nigger.

[QUOTE=Explosions;42641640]Actually, because of the research I put into this Dutch tradition, I don't ever think I will forget it. I don't think I'll ever forget the Turkish saint and his gang of slave minstrels who kidnap children and bring them to Spain in a burlap sack.[/QUOTE] Wait wut. Parents tell their children to be good or otherwise they get kidnapped to spain. Nobody actually got kidnapped and taken to spain because of this tradition though. It's kind of like Santa, where kids get coal, only just a lot *scarier*. Don't forget that Santa Claus was actually derived from Sinterklaas, meaning Santa Claus is actually based on the same Turkish saint.

[QUOTE=mobrockers;42641639]Some is not 99%, and that's just complete bullshit, if no one thinks it's racist (even the people you think it's racist agains), then it's not fucking racist.[/QUOTE] If no one thought blackface was racist would that make it not racist

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;42641843]If no one thought blackface was racist would that make it not racist[/QUOTE] Yes?? If it's not hurting anyone, how can it be racist? [editline]time[/editline] Blackface is racist because it's intended to devalue, dehumanize and hurt black people. Black pete is none of these things.

[QUOTE=Explosions;42641640]Actually, because of the research I put into this Dutch tradition, I don't ever think I will forget it. I don't think I'll ever forget the Turkish saint and his gang of slave minstrels who kidnap children and bring them to Spain in a burlap sack. [editline]25th October 2013[/editline] Ha[/QUOTE] Funny to see this discussion even takes places on non Dutch websites! If you have any question i am right here dudes! ;-) I will have to bring some nuances to both you guys 1st. Do you honouslty think that ALL populair culture from the States got rooted in Holland, but this one passed? 2nd. Its hard to understand that even Black people in Holland "dont really" mind. So whats up now? Well, we all feel pretty STUPID now. The white people( hate the colours keer saying it) feel like "what are we racist while we've never looked at at this way? No way! Black people are like"did they just fooled us, and we just played along"? meanwhile most comments about the subject are getting "pulled out of his context"as we Dutch would say. No there are even petition to bring slavery back( luckily only 4 people singed up , compared to two mil who singed the petition that NOTHING. But there are many many racial comments! Its quite a "revelation"for me as a Black Dutch to see how people "really think". If you say all immigrant-ish people should gtfo , because of the doubst about this character, then things are serieusly going wrong, right? To complicate things even more,; the guy who plays the "main Pete" on TV (hoofdpiet) wrote a column where he syays"make me less of a servant and less degreading towards some people. The thing is , at this moment every opion about immigrant-ish people is tolerated. I red a comment which said it all "Thanks to those protesters, the dark side of Holland got a change to "mingle in the crowd"unseen, and say whatever they like, and even get a hero status. Personally I allways "whistle through"( Dutch expression) this time of year. If kids call me Black pete I just laugh. Its must be pretty embarrasing for the parents. But some people doint seem to realise that it MIGHT (MIGHT!!!) be hurtfull by times. Common used argument is that black people "should be happy that people project them as happy". I think no one should be projected as a stereotype, especailly when there a clear history of pain. In Holland people feel like"we changed it from negative to positive, right". While a large growing number of the Black community just wants to get rid of every memory. This party just lost his innocence. Thats the problem! If it wasnt highlighted like this, I probarly would write a poem buy a present, and smack my half blood light skinned cousin on the shoulder when he says "Black pete" laugh about it and just "party on". This year though, everything seems to swift.

[QUOTE=Marlamin;42641804]Oh god, we've come full circle once again. Nothing is going to change on short term, the UN can literally do nothing about it and have already dropped the charges. Only a few people in the Netherlands think it's racist. 99% of black people in the Netherlands don't think it's racist (in the way it personally offends them). There is barely any racism or race differenciating between white and black people in the Netherlands. Can we just respect that other cultures have other traditions and leave it at that?[/QUOTE] The UN didn't actually drop anything as the UN didn't actually start any investigation. This sheperd lady basically pretended to be a UN representative but was actually only speaking on her own accord, as well as her investigation was on her own accord and not an official UN investigation.

[QUOTE=Protocol7;42641815]Assuming it is supposed to be a racist stereotype, what then? Are stereotypes inherently evil? More importantly how is black skin a racial stereotype when that's literally the defining feature of people of African descent. It's not like the Zwarte Piet festivities include whipping Zwarte Piet and calling him a dirty slave nigger.[/QUOTE] The reason why people are hurt is because once a year the "bad people" abuse this innocent party to actually add these features. On a local scale, not on Tv offcourse. But on the job , in the neigborhood and so on. Once a year people feel like they can be legaly f. with .These "funny"people are guilty as well that things got outta hand so bad. They now mingle , its hard to tell who is who right now. Even here i feel kind of scared to really take a stand, because I know my Ducth fellows(;-)) dont look at this event as a great uppertunity to ridicule black people. Atleats they are not aware 100%. Thats why "we"try so hard to explain the chimney story. Thats what was told back then when we were kids. Sometimes I am surprised how people think Black people are so much sifferent. I allways laugh about it. We are all the same! Why is a whip needed to make it painfull? That would be an absolute extreme option. Thats really " from black to white".

This thread is so retarded. All the opposition in the thread shout "blackface" and "slavery". Most people in the Netherlands never heard of your "Blackface" and has never been used in the Netherlands to bring a bad picture to black people. I personally have never even heard of this "Blackface" phenomenon until i read this thread. In no way are Black Petes depicted as a slaves. They are all happy cheery people who help Sinterklaas with delivering presents and candy to all the children. You are talking as if you actually have been here during the Sinterklaas festival and have seen them being used as slaves to hand out presents and candy. There is even a yearly show on the TV here where the black petes get in all sorts of trouble when trying to make presents and get to the Netherlands in time. Sinterklaas never gets mad at them when they screw up, because he trusts them. It's been a while since i saw this show so that is from vague memory.

[QUOTE=Sithramir;42642092]This thread is so retarded. All the opposition in the thread shout "blackface" and "slavery". Most people in the Netherlands never heard of your "Blackface" and has never been used in the Netherlands to bring a bad picture to black people. I personally have never even heard of this "Blackface" phenomenon until i read this thread. In no way are Black Petes depicted as a slaves. They are all happy cheery people who help Sinterklaas with delivering presents and candy to all the children. You are talking as if you actually have been here during the Sinterklaas festival and have seen them being used as slaves to hand out presents and candy. There is even a yearly show on the TV here where the black petes get in all sorts of trouble when trying to make presents and get to the Netherlands in time. Sinterklaas never gets mad at them when they screw up, because he trusts them. It's been a while since i saw this show so that is from vague memory.[/QUOTE] Most of these threads ends with what seems like two sides shouting at each other and getting nowhere.

[QUOTE=gokiyono;42642116]Most of these threads ends with what seems like two sides shouting at each other and getting nowhere.[/QUOTE] And thats a shame , right? It seems, even here, you guys cant actually "put the finger on the spot where it hurts "( Dutch ) . What we need is conversation. Listen to each other and see what reasonable. @Sithramir, maybe its youre age? Just asking, but I am pretty sure a lot of Duct people ARE familiar with black faces. The problem is that it something like this. ---1.mockery? towards certain people----> towards; 2.the hurtfull features are changed already-----> 3.why are black people upset while black pete NOW is a positive representation. ---> towards; 4.no more similarities/representation. The problem lays between step 3 and 4. Thats a matter of pure understanding. You really got to FEEL it . otherwise it wont work. And then , when people dont feel it, from that point it might be considered harmless! Strange huh? While the character is decended from a negative image , it was converted to a positive image acorrding to "white" (hate that sht) people while "black"people still feel the power from the negavtive , previous image. So the last stage seems to be the hardest, big surprise ,. right? In the States a smiliar proces must have happened, because in the core NOBODY is completly evil. If you grow up and certain people cant get in a bus or what ever, then it still doenst makes you evil. can you image the face from a bus driver who obyed this law his entire life, and then hears that what he did was racist? Hell no he would confess, and you know, somehow he actually right. HE did not came up with that. He was just raised with this idea, just as everybody else. Step 3 to 4 , right? So somehow the "white"community must try to see it from a "black "point of view and the ohter way around. "Black"people should look at it from a "white"piont of view!

[QUOTE=gokiyono;42642116]Most of these threads ends with what seems like two sides shouting at each other and getting nowhere.[/QUOTE] It's not like there's anywhere to go in the first place, these threads are just debate threads. There's no problem to really discuss. "This woman is right" - "No she's dumb as fuck, here's why" - "u racist".

I wonder why no one thinks that Michael Jackson was a racist because he changed the color of his skin and was therefore of the opinion that blacks are inferior to whites...

[QUOTE=SuddenImpact;42642324]I wonder why no one thinks that Michael Jackson was a racist because he changed the color of his skin and was therefore of the opinion that black are inferior to whites...[/QUOTE] Because medical complications arising from lupus and vitiligo gradually led to the lightening of his skin? Jesus, if you're going to draw some stupid comparison, you could at least try to make sure it was on base.

[QUOTE=sjabbe;42642293]@Sithramir, maybe its youre age? Just asking, but I am pretty sure a lot of Duct people ARE familiar with [B]black faces[/B].[/QUOTE] First off i'm not obliged to answer that. Also i was talking about "Blackface" the racial stereotype to belittle black people. Not about the faces of black people.

[QUOTE=Sithramir;42642406]First off i'm not obliged to answer that.[/QUOTE] confirmed for 12 year old then

[QUOTE=Hellduck;42642592]confirmed for 12 year old then[/QUOTE] You do know you can check profiles to see someones date of birth do you?

I'm 48, my FP birth date is wrong.

I don't really see the relevance or what it adds to the debate, but i'm 20 if it's that important.

[QUOTE=Sithramir;42642679]I don't really see the relevance or what it adds to the debate, but i'm 20 if it's that important.[/QUOTE] Are you dense? It means that the age on your profile doesn't mean shit when you can lie about it so easily.

[QUOTE=breakyourfac;42642720]Are you dense? It means that the age on your profile doesn't mean shit when you can lie about it so easily.[/QUOTE] Can you read what i wrote? I was asking for the relevance to this debate not about the date of birth on the profile.

[QUOTE=sjabbe;42642293]And thats a shame , right? It seems, even here, you guys cant actually "put the finger on the spot where it hurts "( Dutch ) . What we need is conversation. Listen to each other and see what reasonable. @Sithramir, maybe its youre age? Just asking, but I am pretty sure a lot of Duct people ARE familiar with black faces. The problem is that it something like this. ---1.mockery? towards certain people----> towards; 2.the hurtfull features are changed already-----> 3.why are black people upset while black pete NOW is a positive representation. ---> towards; 4.no more similarities/representation. The problem lays between step 3 and 4. Thats a matter of pure understanding. You really got to FEEL it . otherwise it wont work. And then , when people dont feel it, from that point it might be considered harmless! Strange huh? While the character is decended from a negative image , it was converted to a positive image acorrding to "white" (hate that sht) people while "black"people still feel the power from the negavtive , previous image. So the last stage seems to be the hardest, big surprise ,. right? In the States a smiliar proces must have happened, because in the core NOBODY is completly evil. If you grow up and certain people cant get in a bus or what ever, then it still doenst makes you evil. can you image the face from a bus driver who obyed this law his entire life, and then hears that what he did was racist? Hell no he would confess, and you know, somehow he actually right. HE did not came up with that. He was just raised with this idea, just as everybody else. Step 3 to 4 , right? So somehow the "white"community must try to see it from a "black "point of view and the ohter way around. "Black"people should look at it from a "white"piont of view![/QUOTE] Blackface isn't and hasn't ever been a thing in the Netherlands. People might know what it is, but would surely say it's a sign of the oppression of black people in the US, not the Netherlands.

If a child draws a swastika because they think the shape is cool (Not having learned of the Nazis or WW2 yet) does that mean they think Nazism is cool? You can't judge someone on supposed intent when you're as far away from their perspective as possible. In the US giving the V Hand Sign usually means peace while in the UK it is comparable to "The Finger". Also whats so racist about Black Pete's features? Just the fact that they're exaggerated? Does that mean everytime a white person is portrayed with literal white skin its racist?

[QUOTE=Stents*;42643612]If a child draws a swastika because they think the shape is cool (Not having learned of the Nazis or WW2 yet) does that mean they think Nazism is cool? You can't judge someone on supposed intent when you're as far away from their perspective as possible. In the US giving the V Hand Sign usually means peace while in the UK it is comparable to "The Finger". Also whats so racist about Black Pete's features? Just the fact that they're exaggerated? Does that mean everytime a white person is portrayed with literal white skin its racist?[/QUOTE] that doesnt mean you would tell them to keep on doing it though

[QUOTE=mobrockers;42642899]Blackface isn't and hasn't ever been a thing in the Netherlands. People might know what it is, but would surely say it's a sign of the oppression of black people in the US, not the Netherlands.[/QUOTE] completly true! But the thing is that you gotta look at it from both angels. We must understand that because of internet the borders are "like , gone, vanished"? . Thereby , as I've stated before, in Holland we depend on The States as they are our main provider of pop culture. So its not hard to understand that the American controversy is now subject in Holland. Allthough, the connection with black face is only made when American people get involved. Still i think the example with the swatiska is a good one. Harsh, but it might do the job in this case. Its about painfull symbols, a really difficult subject. We all know the exampels of burping after diner. Some say its rude, some say its a compliment. Depending on your envirement you might wanna adjust your manners. Thats also goes both, better, all ways Maybe it seems that it actuaccly IS a thing, looking at the proportion of the discussion. Or, maybe we as Dutch people sense something might be ...strange somehow. To some. @Sithramir not trying to judge you,let along blame! but if you are 20 and never seen anything like this, it might be brought back to the fact we dont really learned about this subject at school. that makes it purely a matter of personal interest. My parents are from Suriname and they also had Surinam lecture. I would be surprised to walk into a "white"(sorry!) person's home and find this specific lecture. The stories are very similiar to the American equivalents. You think its a coincidence I do know about this? You think there is one "black"guy from , lets say, 18 + whom never seen this? And please , black face black faces, does it really matter? You know what I mean right? Vrede

[QUOTE=sjabbe;42643717]completly true! But the thing is that you gotta look at it from both angels. We must understand that because of internet the borders are "like , gone, vanished"? . Thereby , as I've stated before, in Holland we depend on The States as they are our main provider of pop culture. So its not hard to understand that the American controversy is now subject in Holland. Allthough, the connection with black face is only made when American people get involved. Still i think the example with the swatiska is a good one. Harsh, but it might do the job in this case. Its about painfull symbols, a really difficult subject. We all know the exampels of burping after diner. Some say its rude, some say its a compliment. Depending on your envirement you might wanna adjust your manners. Thats also goes both, better, all ways Maybe it seems that it actuaccly IS a thing, looking at the proportion of the discussion. Or, maybe we as Dutch people sense something might be ...strange somehow. To some. @Sithramir not trying to judge you,let along blame! but if you are 20 and never seen anything like this, it might be brought back to the fact we dont really learned about this subject at school. that makes it purely a matter of personal interest. My parents are from Suriname and they also had Surinam lecture. I would be surprised to walk into a "white"(sorry!) person's home and find this specific lecture. The stories are very similiar to the American equivalents. You think its a coincidence I do know about this? You think there is one "black"guy from , lets say, 18 + whom never seen this? And please , black face black faces, does it really matter? You know what I mean right? Vrede[/QUOTE] From your posts it seems like you might not know what blackface is.

This is BlackFace: [IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Al_Jolson_Jazz_Singer.JPG[/IMG] [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/LRiYW56.jpg[/IMG] Basically a white person putting on makeup to play the role of a black person in theater. Usually these characters would be "silly" and used for comic relief. [editline]October 25[/editline] Made the image smaller