Dutch 'Black Pete' Christmas custom may be racist, warns UN - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Rusty100;42617595]the makeup itself is making fun of black people. not to mention, i assume from that picture, it's dancing and playing a tambourine. it's the complete embodiment of a minstrel slave.[/QUOTE] surely you could say michael jacksons plastic surgery was a permanent insult to whites and blacks then?

[QUOTE=Ishwoo;42617602]uh no literally no black people complained, it was a bunch of whtie people trying to be whiteknights when in truth it seemed like no one gave a shit. When i used to sing it when i was younger i didn't think hahah yeah this song is definitely referring to black people picking cotton![/QUOTE] that was from a story in the daily mail

Oh man you guys dragged a mod into this hellstorm of a debate, I'm out.

[QUOTE=Ishwoo;42617602]uh no literally no black people complained, it was a bunch of whtie people trying to be whiteknights when in truth it seemed like no one gave a shit. When i used to sing it when i was younger i didn't think hahah yeah this song is definitely referring to black people picking cotton![/QUOTE] i don't think a lot of people know about dutch traditions. are you seriously saying people are just being white knights just because they think its incredibly offensive? show this to any black person and see how they react (it will be the same as any other sane person because it's obviously racist)

[QUOTE=Rusty100;42617595]the makeup itself is making fun of black people. not to mention, i assume from that picture, it's dancing and playing a tambourine. it's the complete embodiment of a minstrel slave.[/QUOTE] How painting your face black is somehow making fun of people with black faces? It is an absolutely ridiculous idea. Even if he is dancing and playing a tambourine, how is this once again poking fun at something? How is mimicking something insulting it? I really do not understand why society looks down on this. Unless he was dressing up as this, in the exact way you mentioned that is believed to be offensive and was actively somehow stating or showing the fact that he is less than human and deserves derogatory treatment or something similar I fail to see how it is possibly offensive.

[QUOTE=breakyourfac;42617609]Oh man you guys dragged a mod into this hellstorm of a debate, I'm out.[/QUOTE] you never said anything of substance when were you in [QUOTE=Ishwoo;42617604]surely you could say michael jacksons plastic surgery was a permanent insult to whites and blacks then?[/QUOTE] this post is actually making me feel ill

[QUOTE=Ishwoo;42617604]surely you could say michael jacksons plastic surgery was a permanent insult to whites and blacks then?[/QUOTE] wtf how does one dudes cosmetic surgery have to do with anything? btw he had vitiligo, a condition that turns your skin white. so, nice job.

[QUOTE=Rusty100;42617573]just because you don't have the same word for it doesn't mean it's okay. it's a parody of a black person. it's making fun of their features. it's racist whether you have a word for black face or not.[/QUOTE] You completely miss the point of why black face was terrible, it kept blacks out of stage and theater whilst demonstrating negative stereotypes. Its why white face stuff is ignored as it has no cultural impact and the stereotypes it does portray are trivial at best. This Black Pete seems to portray a hard working, gift bringing cultural icon. Unless I'm missing some part of the portrayal or back story.

[QUOTE=Meladath;42617613]How painting your face black is somehow making fun of people with black faces? It is an absolutely ridiculous idea. Even if he is dancing and playing a tambourine, how is this once again poking fun at something? How is mimicking something insulting it? [i]I really do not understand why society looks down on this.[/i][/QUOTE] so you just don't understand racism at all? that's your deal, not society's

[QUOTE=benwaddi;42617623] This Black Pete seems to portray a hard working, gift bringing cultural icon. Unless I'm missing some part of the portrayal or back story.[/QUOTE] zwarte piet is a moor slave with a traditional european caricature of a black person who acts silly and lazy and puts kids in a bag to take back to spain. he was made a part of the tradition in the 1850's. recently the tradition has changed because of dutch society's lack of comfortableness with the practice.

[QUOTE=benwaddi;42617623]You completely miss the point of why black face was terrible, it kept blacks out of stage and theater whilst demonstrating negative stereotypes. Its why white face stuff is ignored as it has no cultural impact and the stereotypes it does portray are trivial at best. This Black Pete seems to portray a hard working, gift bringing cultural icon. Unless I'm missing some part of the portrayal or back story.[/QUOTE] how does any of that negate the racist stereotype? you know slaves were worked pretty hard right?

[QUOTE=thisispain;42617607]that was from a story in the daily mail[/QUOTE] [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/600470.stm[/url] I don't read the daily mail, it isn't the only British news source.

[QUOTE=Ishwoo;42617637][url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/600470.stm[/url] I don't read the daily mail, it isn't the only British news source.[/QUOTE] thats a news report saying its not going to happen??

[QUOTE=thisispain;42617615]you never said anything of substance when were you in this post is actually making me feel ill[/QUOTE] People might agree with you more if you could go two posts without quoting someone and then being a condescending jackass to them. Is blackface racist? Absolutely. But it's hard to stand behind the UN trying to be the racism police and butting into things like this unprovoked, especially with the example posted about a similar Iranian tradition. That said, they do still have a point and it is worth looking at this tradition, it being a part of Dutch culture is not a valid defense.

[QUOTE=Rusty100;42617627]so you just don't understand racism at all? that's your deal, not society's[/QUOTE] That is NOT what Racism is. Racism by definition is treating or seeing another race of human being as inferior purely based on their race. Please show me how unless you actively discriminate against a race of people that something is racist. Discrimination is by definition prejudice against an individual/s that is based on their membership of a specific group. How does this show discrimination against individuals? They are dressing up and painting themselves. They are in no way stating that black people are different to any other, and they are most certainly not insulting or showing them in a derogatory manner. Do you also believe that everyone who has a Slave in a BDSM context is also a bad person because the word Slave means property? Just because you do something that may have been perceived as derogatory in the past in a totally different context does not mean that thing or action itself is derogatory. The only way I see for this to happen is to actively make it so.

[QUOTE=Ishwoo;42617637][url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/600470.stm[/url] I don't read the daily mail, it isn't the only British news source.[/QUOTE] so you found an article from 13 years ago in which ONE person said that it might be offensive, which was dismissed. they were thinking about how parents felt and this is a bad thing acc. to you please stop

[QUOTE=Rusty100;42617612]i don't think a lot of people know about dutch traditions. are you seriously saying people are just being white knights just because they think its incredibly offensive? show this to any black person and see how they react (it will be the same as any other sane person because it's obviously racist)[/QUOTE] Black people in the Netherlands happily celebrate Sinterklaas so I'm not sure who you want me to ask here. Foreigners? I don't give a fuck about foreigners having a problem with Sinterklaas. There are a handful of people in the Netherlands complaining every year, they get immense press attention, ask for a political debate every year. Nothing comes of it because they can't get any support. Everyone celebrates Sinterklaas here, we're all okay with it except for those ~200 people complaining every year.

[QUOTE=thejjokerr;42617649][url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7T6n-7S1Z68[/url] They don't seem to be making too big a fuss about it. [/QUOTE] one guy literally said "thats offensive to us" what are you even trying to do

All of you who claim this is pure racism haven't got a clue. To the Dutch, this whole affair makes as much sense as if the UN would suddenly request the USA to ban Santa Claus because it encourages animal cruelty and child labor/midget sweatshops. All you see is a picture of a black man and you conclude it is racist, without knowing the context or the background of this particular tradition. If it weren't for Coca Cola, everyone would be celebrating the Dutch Sinterklaas instead of the commercialised international version of it called Santa Claus. Don't be so quick to judge.

[QUOTE=dogmachines;42617646]People might agree with you more if you could go two posts without quoting someone and then being a condescending jackass to them.[/QUOTE] ive been very respectful and out of that i got called out for being edgy and someone saying shit about my childhood srry if i dont really want to be nice at that point

Of course black pete is racist, there's no questioning that. But I think it's fucking ridiculous that there's such an outrage over a goddamn childrens' party. It's our goddamn Santa Claus! In fact, your "Santa Claus" comes from our "SinterKlaas". He has elf slaves too, but there aren't any elves around to care.

[QUOTE=Meladath;42617648]How does this show discrimination against individuals? They are dressing up and painting themselves. They are in no way stating that black people are different to any other, and they are most certainly not insulting or showing them in a derogatory manner. [/QUOTE] because it is a caricature of black person mocking them for having different skin and facial features than white people?

[QUOTE=V12US;42617664] All you see is a picture of a black man and you conclude it is racist, without knowing the context or the background of this particular tradition. [/QUOTE] i've stated the background and context of this tradition several times

is this such a hard thing to grasp?

[QUOTE=thisispain;42617659]one guy literally said "thats offensive to us" what are you even trying to do[/QUOTE] I can see how it would be offensive to foreigners when they don't know what it's about. I'm sure most will have a similar reaction as the rest of the people in the video, when explained what Black Pete does. He brings children presents and candy, come on.

[QUOTE=thejjokerr;42617679]And another one literally says "thats not offensive". I was trying to show Rusty that not every black person is offended by this.[/QUOTE] yeah just like not all gay people are offended by the word faggot that doesn't make it any less offensive [editline]23rd October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=mobrockers;42617684] He brings children presents and candy, come on.[/QUOTE] yes because he is santa's 'servant'

[QUOTE=Rusty100;42617687]yeah just like not all gay people are offended by the word faggot that doesn't make it any less offensive[/QUOTE] Whilst I agree with you rusty yes, BlackFace in traditional context was stereotypical features of a black person, wether it is to mock people or not is open to debate and is entirely based on one thing: Context. This entire thing is based on context, yes, perhaps in some minstrel plays BlackFace was used to portray black people in a derogatory way and show them inferior to white people, but in the context of this debate I can't possibly see how it is offensive, since they are not showing in any other way that it is indeed derogatory. The same goes for the word faggot, the same goes for almost EVERYTHING we as human beings do. Context is everything.

[QUOTE=thejjokerr;42617679]And another one literally says "thats not offensive". I was trying to show Rusty that not every black person is offended by this.[/QUOTE] and what ive stated again and again is that how "offended" someone might appear to be makes no difference to why a practice should exist even if every single black person in the world was like "I LOVE ZWARTE PIET", we should still look at the context and history of the practice and say "hey what is the meaning of this? how do we feel about this?" lots of ppl are looking at it going "hey this might be kinda racist". that's a very valid thing to say, and you know saying "i dont think this is that racist anymore" or "its not that applicable to society today" might be fair too, but going "theres nothing racist about this and some black people agree with me" is unfair and doesnt lend itself to any debate why should zwarte piet continue to exist? are kids really gonna miss out on it? how much fun did kid miss out on already from all the changes to zwartie piet?

[QUOTE=FalconKrunch;42617672]Of course black pete is racist, there's no questioning that. But I think it's fucking ridiculous that there's such an outrage over a goddamn childrens' party. It's our goddamn Santa Claus! In fact, your "Santa Claus" comes from our "SinterKlaas". He has elf slaves too, but there aren't any elves around to care.[/QUOTE] no one is complaining about sinterklaas. it's zwarte piet thats the issue. surely you could live without it?

[QUOTE=Meladath;42617701]Whilst I agree with you rusty yes, BlackFace in traditional context was stereotypical features of a black person, wether it is to mock people or not is open to debate and is entirely based on one thing: Context. This entire thing is based on context, yes, perhaps in some minstrel plays blackface was used to portray black people in a derogatory way and show them inferior to white people, but this is entirely based on context. In this context I can't possibly see how it is offensive. The same goes for the word faggot, the same goes for almost EVERYTHING we as human beings do. Context is everything.[/QUOTE] seriously? it was ABSOLUTELY to mock them. it is always mocking. how can you spin the curly hair and big red lips as not a mockery? why is it never an actual black person helping santa, and instead a white dude painted black? because they are MOCKING BLACK PEOPLE and have been doing it so long some people lost sight of that and just chalk it up to tradition.