Dutch 'Black Pete' Christmas custom may be racist, warns UN - Polidicks

who says anyone has to even live without it? just be honest and teach students the true history and context behind the practice so they dont think its just soot on some white dudes face

[QUOTE=thisispain;42617668]ive been very respectful and out of that i got called out for being edgy and someone saying shit about my childhood srry if i dont really want to be nice at that point[/QUOTE] The first thing you did in this thread was call somebody laughably stupid and you followed it up by sarcastically telling somebody how educated they sounded. That isn't exactly respectful. I'll stop this now, it honestly feels a bit petty and it's borderline derailing. [QUOTE=FalconKrunch;42617672]Of course black pete is racist, there's no questioning that. But I think it's fucking ridiculous that there's such an outrage over a goddamn childrens' party. It's our goddamn Santa Claus! In fact, your "Santa Claus" comes from our "SinterKlaas". He has elf slaves too, but there aren't any elves around to care.[/QUOTE] If it's racist, it shouldn't be a children's party.

[QUOTE=thisispain;42617668]ive been very respectful[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=thisispain;42617178]fantastic understanding of the UN as a world institution. you sure come off as educated[/QUOTE] "Respectful"

[QUOTE=thisispain;42617674]i've stated the background and context of this tradition several times[/QUOTE] No, you did not. You have no idea what the background and context is, because not even Dutch historians can tell you what the background is. It's an amalgamation of many different events. A Roman holy man called Saint Nicholas who bought slaves and set them free. Odin on his white horse Sleipnirr and his two black ravens Huginn and Muninn eavesdropping on people to make sure they behave. Chimney sweepers leaving presents for children. There are as many different interpretations as there are people. Again, you don't know jack shit, and you should stop preaching to people about things you know nothing about.

[QUOTE=thisispain;42617715]who says anyone has to even live without it? just be honest and teach students the true history and context behind the practice so they dont think its just soot on some white dudes face[/QUOTE] idk man i think itd be better not to keep it going. im all for telling people about it, but it seems a bit contradictory to say "this is why we do this, its really bad eh?" and continue doing it

[QUOTE=dogmachines;42617717]The first thing you did in this thread was call somebody laughably stupid and you followed it up by sarcastically telling somebody how educated they sounded. That isn't exactly respectful. I'll stop this now, it honestly feels a bit petty and it's borderline derailing. [/QUOTE] no i said the soot excuse was laughably stupid and i mocked someone for their vile and shameful post about UN peacekeepers

[QUOTE=Rusty100;42617712]seriously? it was ABSOLUTELY to mock them. it is always mocking. how can you spin the curly hair and big red lips as not a mockery? why is it never an actual black person helping santa, and instead a white dude painted black? because they are MOCKING BLACK PEOPLE and have been doing it so long some people lost sight of that and just chalk it up to tradition.[/QUOTE]Yet quite a few black people DO play as zwarte piet. Why? They don't care if it's racist. My friend went as zwarte piet a lot and he's black but I'm not seeing him complain. Another thing, why the fuck do we have to change something from our culture because some foreigners think it's racist?

[QUOTE=thisispain;42617715]who says anyone has to even live without it? just be honest and teach students the true history and context behind the practice so they dont think its just soot on some white dudes face[/QUOTE] That's not an option proposed by the opposition. Their only demand is banning the tradition. That's just not going to happen.

[QUOTE=thisispain;42617732]no i said the soot excuse was laughably stupid and i mocked someone for their vile and shameful post about UN peacekeepers[/QUOTE] Which isn't being respectful, no matter how you twist it.

[QUOTE=V12US;42617729]No, you did not. You have no idea what the background and context is, because not even Dutch historians can tell you what the background is.[/QUOTE] yeah they can? its fairly well-documented? even on wikipedia? the children's story it originates from is online for everyone to read? [QUOTE=V12US;42617729]Again, you don't know jack shit, and you should stop preaching to people about things you know nothing about.[/QUOTE] i can say the same to you

[QUOTE=Rusty100;42617712]seriously? it was ABSOLUTELY to mock them. it is always mocking. how can you spin the curly hair and big red lips as not a mockery? why is it never an actual black person helping santa, and instead a white dude painted black? because they are MOCKING BLACK PEOPLE and have been doing it so long some people lost sight of that and just chalk it up to tradition.[/QUOTE] How do you know that it is never a black person? Just because the argument currently is that it is a white person painted black does not mean that black people are not allowed to do this, have you looked into that? Some people chalk it up to tradition, I however think tradition is rather silly because everything changes over time, trying to stop it is dumb. As I said, context is everything, everything evolves, what was once offensive is no longer offensive, what was once right is now wrong, and what was once wrong is no longer wrong. Can you not understand my side of the argument? They are not actively discriminating, yes, it may have been used that way in the past, but this is in no way discriminatory. If it is infact discriminatory, then you would expect the levels of racism in the area's where this is deemed acceptable to be higher than area's where it is not correct? Since you cannot really test it, the next best thing is to go to the numbers of the related (potential) offences surely? I think you might be surprised if you look up those numbers.

[QUOTE=thisispain;42617703]and what ive stated again and again is that how "offended" someone might appear to be makes no difference to why a practice should exist even if every single black person in the world was like "I LOVE ZWARTE PIET", we should still look at the context and history of the practice and say "hey what is the meaning of this? how do we feel about this?" lots of ppl are looking at it going "hey this might be kinda racist". that's a very valid thing to say, and you know saying "i dont think this is that racist anymore" or "its not that applicable to society today" might be fair too, but going "theres nothing racist about this and some black people agree with me" is unfair and doesnt lend itself to any debate why should zwarte piet continue to exist? are kids really gonna miss out on it? how much fun did kid miss out on already from all the changes to zwartie piet?[/QUOTE] You're kidding right? No, if people aren't offended by something we don't have to look for a reason to make it offensive, there's no reason at all.

[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;42617737]Which isn't being respectful, no matter how you twist it.[/QUOTE] look obviously im gonna get shit on for w/e reason so i dont even care [editline]23rd October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=mobrockers;42617745]You're kidding right? No, if people aren't offended by something we don't have to look for a reason to make it offensive, there's no reason at all.[/QUOTE] historical analysis is independent of what people are offended by

I have issues with how the UN is handling this, most of my issues come from the fact that the people in this committee have already spoken out against this tradition before even starting the actual "investigation". These people are in no way neutral to the subject. My personal opinion is that Zwarte Piet should stay. I grew up with it. I know there's a pretty obvious relation to old (but apparently not everyone has moved on) slave traditions. Most people in the Netherlands simply do not give a shit and we don't give a shit what other countries think of it. A poll by dutch newspaper Telegraaf showed only a small group of people in the capital Amsterdam were making noise about this. Other people (of all races) in the rest of the country are fine with it. I still enjoy watching the Sinterklaas news and [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sDDA3hzfI1E]other related TV shows[/url] at the end of every year because they're actually pretty funny most of the time. And quite frankly, I would miss Elvis Piet (and all the other hilarious themed pieten) and naturally [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LurEuv7LjMU&feature=player_detailpage]the awful yearly covers[/url]. Also [url=http://www.nrcnext.nl/files/2011/10/pepernoten_groot.jpg]pepernoten[/url]. [thumb]http://marlamin.com/u/2013-10-23_13-11-49_220706.png[/thumb] This picture perfectly symbolizes the situation. The man on the left is the dutch population (this guy is actually a tourist) and the dog is the UN committee. Please U.N, don't kill Elvis again. Go focus on some international crisis that's not related to something that is racist only 2 days (longer if you count the TV stuff/marketing) in a year.

[QUOTE=thisispain;42617743]yeah they can? its fairly well-documented? even on wikipedia? the children's story it originates from is online for everyone to read? i can say the same to you[/QUOTE] Ahh, yes. You read an article on the internet. Congratulations, you are now an expert on culture you have never experienced of a country you've probably never even visited. Here, have a medal. Ohh, sorry. I accidentally clicked on the box icon. Oh well.

[QUOTE=V12US;42617783]Ahh, yes. You read an article on the internet. Congratulations, you are now an expert on culture you have never experienced of a country you've probably never even visited. Here, have a medal. Ohh, sorry. I accidentally clicked on the box icon. Oh well.[/QUOTE] i actually went to school in leiden and speak the dutch language, so most of my knowledge about zwarte piet comes from first hand account see this is what i was talking about, cannot win

[QUOTE=V12US;42617783]Ahh, yes. You read an article on the internet. Congratulations, you are now an expert on culture you have never experienced of a country you've probably never even visited. Here, have a medal. Ohh, sorry. I accidentally clicked on the box icon. Oh well.[/QUOTE] thisispain lived here I think.

black people doesn't exist, gotta remove them in case someone gets offended

[QUOTE=V12US;42617783]Ahh, yes. You read an article on the internet. Congratulations, you are now an expert on culture you have never experienced of a country you've probably never even visited. Here, have a medal. Ohh, sorry. I accidentally clicked on the box icon. Oh well.[/QUOTE] wow thats embarassing

[QUOTE=Hellduck;42617800]wow thats embarassing[/QUOTE] the dutch people i lived with were so nice, and i still miss my dutch friends what happens when they get on the internet

[QUOTE=thisispain;42617804]the dutch people i lived with were so nice, and i still miss my dutch friends what happens when they get on the internet[/QUOTE] People generally don't like it when you tell them how to live their lives.

must go to the netherlands sometime. my aunts lived there for years and ive never visited her once

[QUOTE=thisispain;42617804]the dutch people i lived with were so nice, and i still miss my dutch friends what happens when they get on the internet[/QUOTE] Bet you never told them to stop celebrating Sinterklaas because they were a bunch of racist fucks, did you?

This shitstorm is such a waste of energy. It's a deeply ingrained children's holiday with no racist context whatsoever for the people that celebrate it.

[QUOTE=mobrockers;42617819]Bet you never told them to stop celebrating Sinterklaas because they were a bunch of racist fucks, did you?[/QUOTE] well he didnt tell you that either, so fucking chill

[QUOTE=V12US;42617814]People generally don't like it when you tell them how to live their lives.[/QUOTE] i never even told you to do anything lmao

Oh man, let's wait until they find out that the oldest tradition of my city is a game of Chivalry called 'saracen joust' where [url=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Cavalieredicasata.JPG]knights of different city areas[/url] challenge to joust against a [url=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GF0nzv0Nj-A/UcXMT9986KI/AAAAAAAAA2E/qQglfyESvUo/s1600/Giostra+Saracino+Arezzo.jpg]mannequin[/url], called 'saracean buratto' which represents a [i]morus[/i], which is the medieval term for northern african :downs: In other words it's a game of impale the black person mannequin on a horse'

[QUOTE=mobrockers;42617819]Bet you never told them to stop celebrating Sinterklaas because they were a bunch of racist fucks, did you?[/QUOTE] hope sinterklaas will put some diazepam in your shoe this year

Something celebrated for ages bringing joy to the kids and also brings some good financial times to toy stores should suddenly brought down because someone was offended by it after all these years. You can't just change a few things about it.. Either way, i guess they can't do much about it. I mean its just one woman who said this, sure this won't have instant effect?

This is the guy that runs around spreading joy during the Farsi holiday/new years around March. [img]http://realiran.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/1zarb_com_1002621.jpg[/img] "Uncle New Year" roughly translated. I see some similarities here. Now that I think about it, he scares me.