Dutch 'Black Pete' Christmas custom may be racist, warns UN - Polidicks

[QUOTE=lapsus_;42617845]Oh man, let's wait until they find out that the oldest tradition of my city is a game of Chivalry called 'saracen joust' where knights of different city areas challenge to joust against a mannequin, called 'saracean buratto' which represents a [i]morus[/i], which is the medieval term for northern african :downs: In other words it's a game of impale the black person mannequin on a horse'[/QUOTE] that's actually kind of a cool tradition, once you look past the black person impalement

[QUOTE=darth-veger;42617856]Something celebrated for ages bringing joy to the kids and also brings some good financial times to toy stores should suddenly brought down because someone was offended by it after all these years. You can't just change a few things about it.. Either way, i guess they can't do much about it. I mean its just one woman who said this, sure this won't have instant effect?[/QUOTE] They don't really have an actual say in this.

[QUOTE=darth-veger;42617856]Something celebrated for ages bringing joy to the kids and also brings some good financial times to toy stores should suddenly brought down because someone was offended by it after all these years. You can't just change a few things about it..[/QUOTE] you absolutely can, children aren't going to be less joyous and toy stores will not be worse off for the exclusion of zwarte piet

[QUOTE=thisispain;42617866]that's actually kind of a cool tradition, once you look past the black person impalement[/QUOTE] Everyone loves it over here, some follow it more passionately than soccer, you should just see the confusion of american tourists as they go 'woah wait why is the mannequin black? mon das racist, not cool, not cool at all'

[QUOTE=thisispain;42617703]why should zwarte piet continue to exist? are kids really gonna miss out on it? how much fun did kid miss out on already from all the changes to zwartie piet?[/QUOTE] This is quite difficult to awnser. One of the main reasons is that we have a quite large sum of the dutch people on their hindlegs is because one of their traditions is in danger. A response that is understandable, no matter what the tradition or the group of people may be. Second is that in the Netherlands we try, as a collective, to let kids up top about the age of 8/9 believe in this man. It may be hard to believe, but announcing he is fake in public is extremly frowed upon and may even result in a fight when you are around someone mad enough. Almost all forms of media does not report about Sinterklaas until most kids are asleep, subjects like this are discussed on shows that air later in the evening. Some kidprograms tell a different story each year, most of the time, the problem of the story is that Sinterklaas won't arrive on time, and media and even schools try to hook into this lore to create depth into the story. When messy pete (Rommel Piet) is in town, kids often go to school to find classrooms turned upside down etc. The fact that we try, as a nation, to make this fun for kids, is why we love it so much. Even me, as an adult, can almost taste the atmosphere during the early december days. The tradition is centered around kids, but we all benefit. Now, we cannot deny that Zwarte Piet is racist. We say his skin etc come from going up and down chimneys but we all understand that it is a depicture of a "dumb black guy". We also understand the history of our nation, we became one of the richest countries in the world, selling people. But is the way the UN is approaching this the right way? That's the question. The majority of the population wants nothing changed, a small piece of the population wants him out. I think it's best we find a solution that is in the best interest of both parties, else you risk dividing the population into 2 groups, and that can only bring harm.

The stores have already said they're just going to celebrate Sinterklaas as normal. The prime minister has stated that black Pete is black and they can't do anything about it. The net result of this whole drama affair is that an extreme right nationalist party in the Netherlands has shot up the polls. That'll sure reduce racism. Great job, UN.

[QUOTE=lapsus_;42617891]Everyone loves it over here, some follow it more passionately than soccer, you should just see the confusion of american tourists as they go 'woah wait why is the mannequin black? mon das racist, not cool, not cool at all'[/QUOTE] its more absurd than anything if you think about it. just the idea of it is funny, a bunch of knights impaling a mannequin thats supposed to be a muslim

[img]http://www.vintaga.com/Posters/Minstrel/i-QgHKNbC/3/L/1828u-L.jpg[/img] [IMG]http://www.sintforum.nl/wiki/images/thumb/2/27/1ZwartePiet.png/310px-1ZwartePiet.png[/IMG] what a bizarre coincidence that a style of comedy used to dehumanize black people and a depiction of a fairy tale man with soot on his face happen to look exactly the same

[QUOTE=thisispain;42617936]its more absurd than anything if you think about it. just the idea of it is funny, a bunch of knights impaling a mannequin thats supposed to be a muslim[/QUOTE] Especially considering that's not how it generally went. The Saracens kicked ass all over europe.

[QUOTE=ItsMozy;42617899]This is quite difficult to awnser. One of the main reasons is that we have a quite large sum of the dutch people on their hindlegs is because one of their traditions is in danger. A response that is understandable, no matter what the tradition or the group of people may be. Second is that in the Netherlands we try, as a collective, to let kids up top about the age of 8/9 believe in this man. It may be hard to believe, but announcing he is fake in public is extremly frowed upon and may even result in a fight when you are around someone mad enough. Almost all forms of media does not report about Sinterklaas until most kids are asleep, subjects like this are discussed on shows that air later in the evening. Some kidprograms tell a different story each year, most of the time, the problem of the story is that Sinterklaas won't arrive on time, and media and even schools try to hook into this lore to create depth into the story. When messy pete (Rommel Piet) is in town, kids often go to school to find classrooms turned upside down etc. The fact that we try, as a nation, to make this fun for kids, is why we love it so much. Even me, as an adult, can almost taste the atmosphere during the early december days. The tradition is centered around kids, but we all benefit. Now, we cannot deny that Zwarte Piet is racist. We say his skin etc come from going up and down chimneys but we all understand that it is a depicture of a "dumb black guy". We also understand the history of our nation, we became one of the richest countries in the world, selling people. But is the way the UN is approaching this the right way? That's the question. The majority of the population wants nothing changed, a small piece of the population wants him out. I think it's best we find a solution that is in the best interest of both parties, else you risk dividing the population into 2 groups, and that can only bring harm.[/QUOTE] that is totally a cool and reasonable rationale, but id have more faith in your population. im optimistic in thinking that dutch people can resolve their past peacefully, and do so that brings them pride instead of having to cover up their history with things like stories about soot. i dont think the UN will divide you up that much just by pointing out something. being pragmatic about it is the right way, to be reactionary and try to use zwarte piet as a way to assert your cultural autonomy will come off as negative no matter what.

[QUOTE=V12US;42617900]The stores have already said they're just going to celebrate Sinterklaas as normal. The prime minister has stated that black Pete is black and they can't do anything about it. The net result of this whole drama affair is that an extreme right nationalist party in the Netherlands has shot up the polls. That'll sure reduce racism. Great job, UN.[/QUOTE] surely you cant blame the UN for the netherlands having a nationalist party [editline]23rd October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=thejjokerr;42617971]I mean Racial Segregation was an American thing. [/QUOTE] apartheid is a dutch word... come on, this is a huge huge lack of historical awareness.

[QUOTE=thisispain;42617982] apartheid is a dutch word...[/QUOTE] Yeah, because Afrikaans is heavily derived from Dutch so it's going to take words from it.

[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;42618000]Yeah, because Afrikaans is heavily derived from Dutch so it's going to take words from it.[/QUOTE] yes i know thank you so its very clear that racial segregation isnt "an American thing"

your history, as like many european nations, is not clean, at all, when it comes to racism against black people and i thought your characterisation of racial segregation as "an American thing" was really bad is that clear

[QUOTE=thejjokerr;42618053]Ah like that, sure that's clear. I was trying to show that racism towards black people isn't a thing here, but it was and still is in America. Sorry if I didn't explain that correctly.[/QUOTE] but...you just said that people get hostile towards black protesters when they go after zwarte piet, didn't you? that, to me, makes it seem like racism is still very much a thing

[QUOTE=thejjokerr;42618053] I was trying to show that racism towards black people isn't a thing here[/QUOTE] this is anecdotal but someone in my family married a suriname woman who was black and shes been the victim of anything from having allochtoon yelled at her (she lives in gelderland), to being physically threatened. you dont have to take it as fact, but not everyone would agree with you

[QUOTE=Teddybeer;42618106]Yeah we sure are hostile against them chasing them out of town with pitch forks while making sure they don't have several ways to report racism. Meanwhile we ripped out Article 1 to make sure our tradition would not be harmed. Oh wait we brush it off because there are not enough people that want it to change.[/QUOTE] ...ok? there are things in place to protect black people in america too and the constitution ostensibly protects their rights as well but they don't exactly always work and it doesn't negate the racism that still exists among the populace which is what i was addressing specifically

A quick reminder that it bothered noone untill 2011. [url]http://www.scribd.com/doc/177304035/Het-Nederlandse-antwoord-op-de-VN-brief[/url] [img]http://i.imgur.com/ozjWygz.png[/img]

[QUOTE=Teddybeer;42618106]Yeah we sure are hostile against them chasing them out of town with pitch forks while making sure they don't have several ways to report racism. Meanwhile we ripped out Article 1 to make sure our tradition would not be harmed. Oh wait we brush it off because there are not enough people that want it to change. If enough people report it as racism it will be dealt with.[/QUOTE] why do you have the old south african flag

[QUOTE=thisispain;42618086]this is anecdotal but someone in my family married a suriname woman who was black and shes been the victim of anything from having allochtoon yelled at her (she lives in gelderland), to being physically threatened. you dont have to take it as fact, but not everyone would agree with you[/QUOTE] It's true that there is still a large portion of our population that doesn't likes foreigners very much, but I'm fairly sure most of them don't have a problem with one specific group of foreigners (like racism against black people). We're very multi-culti over here, we hate all foreigners equally. Except the French. Fuck the French. And the Polish, since they steal all our jobs. And Moroccans, since they steal everything else. But racism against black people isn't really a big issue over here I don't think.

well then maybe you should see why to people on the outside, the UN or "americans" otherwise, it might seem like theres some problems with racism, of which zwartie piet is symbolic or representative of kinda important considering the netherlands is just gonna get more mixed in the future.

[QUOTE=thejjokerr;42618179]Sorry to hear that. In my personal experience there has been little to no racism towards black people and tons of racism towards Moroccans. I'm not trying to pretend to know how much racism there is in my country, all I can tell you is the way I experience racism around me and on TV.[/QUOTE] There's tons of racism towards dutch people by moroccans where I live. Black people are always A-OK though from both sides. :v:

[QUOTE=thisispain;42618234]well then maybe you should see why to people on the outside, the UN or "americans" otherwise, it might seem like theres some problems with racism, of which zwartie piet is symbolic or representative of kinda important considering the netherlands is just gonna get more mixed in the future.[/QUOTE] I can see why it might seem that way, and you're all free to think whatever you want, but I just don't give a fuck what you think, so long as you don't try and change my ways. That's the whole problem. A black woman from the US (Jamaica is the US right??), chairperson of a some anti-discrimination UN organization, who evidently knows nothing about us, judges us on a feast she knows nothing about, before an investigation has even started. That's what we're mad about.

I'm not doubting that this thing is racist, I'm questioning why anything should change. Yeah some people are offended, and so? "I'm offended" isn't some magical word that makes everything instantly go your way and makes you right. Evidently, the majority have absolutely nothing against this tradition. Democracy is a bitch, but you can't turn it on and off when you feel like it. Don't like it? Then you either deal with it or you move somewhere else, the whole country won't change because the feelings of 8% got hurt. Since this is, you know, some guys going around with black faces, not the KKK murdering blacks or people dressing as Nazis re-enacting genocides. It doesn't cause violence, it doesn't incite violence.

[QUOTE=acds;42618277]I'm not doubting that this thing is racist, I'm questioning why anything should change. Yeah some people are offended, and so? "I'm offended" isn't some magical word that makes everything instantly go your way and makes you right. Evidently, the majority have absolutely nothing against this tradition. Democracy is a bitch, but you can't turn it on and off when you feel like it. Don't like it? Then you either deal with it or you move somewhere else, the whole country won't change because the feelings of 8% got hurt. Since this is, you know, some guys going around with black faces, not the KKK murdering blacks or people dressing as Nazis re-enacting genocides.[/QUOTE] If we applied your dumbass logic in america blacks would still be legally segregated

[QUOTE=Marlamin;42618254]There's tons of racism towards dutch people by moroccans where I live. Black people are always A-OK though from both sides. :v:[/QUOTE] The children in the part of the Hague where I live had no problem banding together to steal shit and be a fucking scary group of people hanging around my primary school when I was like ~10 years old. Scary shit for a white as fuck middle class kid. Doesn't help that my primary school was right in the middle of 'poor people's houses', not sure what to call them. [editline]23rd October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;42618296]If we applied your dumbass logic in america blacks would still be legally segregated[/QUOTE] Blacks are no longer legally segregated in the Netherlands though?

I don't go crying to the media about the extremely stereotypical depiction of Italians in a few commercials here in Sweden. Yet they are way more stereotyped than this Black Pete is.

[QUOTE=acds;42618277]I'm not doubting that this thing is racist, I'm questioning why anything should change. Yeah some people are offended, and so? "I'm offended" isn't some magical word that makes everything instantly go your way and makes you right. Evidently, the majority have absolutely nothing against this tradition. Democracy is a bitch, but you can't turn it on and off when you feel like it. Don't like it? Then you either deal with it or you move somewhere else, the whole country won't change because the feelings of 8% got hurt. Since this is, you know, some guys going around with black faces, not the KKK murdering blacks or people dressing as Nazis re-enacting genocides. It doesn't cause violence, it doesn't incite violence.[/QUOTE] 8%? We're talking about something more like 0.00008% Even in former Dutch colonies, where the population is almost predominantly black, people don't give a shit. These people celebrate Sinterklaas and wonder where this drama is coming from.

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;42618296]If we applied your dumbass logic in america blacks would still be legally segregated[/QUOTE] No if we applied my logic to America people would sometimes dress up as Indians, African tribesmen, or Geishas for Halloween or other festivities. Oh wait

[QUOTE=acds;42618310]I don't go crying to the media about the extremely stereotypical depiction of Italians in a few commercials here in Sweden. Yet they are way more stereotyped than this Black Pete is.[/QUOTE] "But Italians weren't subjected to slavery so not the same!"