Dutch 'Black Pete' Christmas custom may be racist, warns UN - Polidicks

I hate how they gave so much power to a stupid word. How racist isn't it that ''white'' people can't use it and ''black people'' can. I am glad in dutch it's just a word like any other and it's Neger (Nigger) ever heard of the country Nigeria? Yeah, that's right. Same origin. If the word ''nigger'' is offensive, than calling a person a different variant of that word, ''black'' is just as offensive. Or calling people by a colour in general.

[QUOTE=TheProfane;42621386]I hate how they gave so much power to a stupid word. How racist isn't it that ''white'' people can't use it and ''black people'' can. I am glad in dutch it's just a word like any other and it's Neger (Nigger) ever heard of the country Nigeria? Yeah, that's right. Same origin. If the word ''nigger'' is offensive, than calling a person a different variant of that word, ''black'' is just as offensive. Or calling people by a colour in general.[/QUOTE] A person from Nigeria is not called a nigger. They're called Nigerians. It's about the context the word is used in, not the word itself.

[QUOTE=CasualJoe;42620976]Everyone is so afraid of change in this country, just give them different colors of make up, the kids eat that shit up, the whole world has become a multicultural mix, and we need to go with the time instead of having these old traditions that could insult some people. Stop holding on to the past.[/QUOTE] Forgetting your past and its mistakes only leads to repeating them.

[QUOTE=thisispain;42617982]apartheid is a dutch word... come on, this is a huge huge lack of historical awareness.[/QUOTE]The term is an Afrikaans invention, not Dutch. There are specific words for segregation on the Dutch language.[QUOTE=joost1120;42621337]Describing people by what they look like isn't offensive. I've never heard of anyone being offended because he's described as coloured, white or black.[/QUOTE]An example: "Go ask that nigger, he knows knows how to get to the gas station." - Unacceptable "Go ask that colored guy, he knows how to get to the gas station." - Not okay to say if you're under 70 "Go ask that black guy, he knows how to get to the gas station." - Okay with 99% of the population, except some really anal people "Go ask that African American guy, he knows how to get to the gas station." - Technically politically correct, but you sound like an idiot Our vernacular changes as time goes on, and what's acceptable changes with it. Open racism in the 50's was okay, but it became taboo after the civil rights movement. Different cultures and different languages have their own way of describing things, and racial slurs are no exception. While "colored" might be acceptable in your country, "black" is offensive in Russia, and in the United States it's the opposite.

[QUOTE=thejjokerr;42621274]I think he meant to say that in America it isn't a problem if you say, "that black person over there", in his country he would say "that nigger over there" whilst it wouldn't be considered offensive. We all use different words for stuff and "nigger" (or as the Dutch say "neger") is not offensive everywhere.[/QUOTE] Uh I dunno, people (unless they're my friends) don't really like it when you call them 'neger' where I live.

[QUOTE=gudman;42621357]The point is, it's all translation, I'm pretty sure Sweden and other countries have no specific word "nigger" in "Nigger's kiss". [/QUOTE] We say "neger" which is basically the same as "negro". We have no exact word for "nigger", but "neger" sounds the most like it so that's what many translate it to in English

[QUOTE=mobrockers;42621536]Uh I dunno, people (unless they're my friends) don't really like it when you call them 'neger' where I live.[/QUOTE] Is it because of the word itself or not? I'm curious. It's generally impolite to address a particular person by his skin colour/ethnicity. I wouldn't like it if someone called me "white" to my face either, or even "Russian" for the sake of argument, but who would have problems with impersonal term unless it's particularly offensive?

[QUOTE=thejjokerr;42621569]Well you don't call people by their skin colour, you call them by their name.[/QUOTE] Pretty much yeah. I get what you mean now. Calling someone black is simply not-done here, but you can get away with calling someone a nigger.

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;42621505]"Go ask that African American guy, he knows how to get to the gas station." - Technically politically correct, but you sound like an idiot[/QUOTE] You would look [I]really[/I] stupid if you were in the Netherlands and called a black person an "African American".

[QUOTE=thejjokerr;42621569]Well you don't call people by their skin colour, you call them by their name.[/QUOTE] or some other part of their body, like "hey asshole!"

[QUOTE=gudman;42621591]Is it because of the word itself or not? I'm curious. It's generally impolite to address a particular person by his skin colour/ethnicity. I wouldn't like it if someone called me "white" to my face either, or even "Russian" for the sake of argument, but who would have problems with impersonal term unless it's particularly offensive?[/QUOTE] I'd never say it to someone's face unless if it's a friend I'm messing with, but yeah you can use it to describe a black person. In Dutch you'd say "that nigger" as you would say "that black guy" in English.

[QUOTE=Limed00d;42617218]did you know santa and sinterklaas are the one and the same[/QUOTE] Santa claus is inspired by sinterclaas through various new york poets and writers at the time when they were trading with the dutch. Sinterclaas was a real person though.

[QUOTE=Simski;42621628]or some other part of their body, like "hey asshole!"[/QUOTE] Or just the simple old "Yo faggot!".

[QUOTE=thisispain;42617151]??? the soot this is laughably stupid zwarte piet is a moor slave btw. read your own country's history from the times of the holy roman empire before you say something about soot.[/QUOTE] First of all, the 'moors' were not black Africans, they were Berbers indigenous to North Africa and Arabs who had settled there west of Egpyt; their skin ranged from brown to white. Second, slavery was not permitted in the Holy Roman Empire until the 19th century, long after the 'Moors' ceased to exist as a political, cultural or societal entity. Saying 'the times of the Holy Roman Empire' means nothing because that's an almost thousand-year period, for a not-insignificant period of which the Dutch culture was beginning to come into existence, much less existing as an independent nation or even a centralized vassal state within the Reich. [QUOTE=thisispain] it took centuries for the offensive practice of slavery to disappear, theres no getting rid of it[/QUOTE] The Netherlands banned slavery in 1814, before slavery was a truly massive institution (not to say that there weren't a lot of slaves -- there certainly were, but the number of slaves in America in the mid 19th century surpassed all previous centuries combined, globally). [quote=thisispain] the mindset of SOME, not all, dutch people is that their country is losing something to a foreign force by having their culture changed i was living in Leiden when theo van goth and pim fortuijn were killed. it understandably made a lot of people anxious, and i remember older dutch people saying that they were losing the country to foreigners[/QUOTE] No one is forcing people to move to the Netherlands. If you find some aspect of Dutch culture offensive or racist, then you have an option -- don't move there in the first place. Secondly, if Islamist foreigners are murdering people in the streets (literally), then what should they do? Lie down and say 'oh, well I guess our culture is racist, so we had it coming'? The rest of your posts are basically childlike bickering but regardless, so what if it's blackface? So fucking what? It's a part of their culture, it's not harming anyone, nor are black people even being mocked. What should we do instead? Pretend that slavery never happened?

[QUOTE=Teddybeer;42621790] Also as a note Wodan is Dutch for Odin, some interpretation was done, and mostly fucked up by my English as per normal. [/QUOTE] Wodan/Woden is the version of Odin that was worshiped by all Germanics on the European mainland as opposed to Scandinavia; it's not entirely the same as Odin. Also I wonder how long it'll take for someone to realize what the flag in your avatar is and get mad, lol.

[QUOTE=Teddybeer;42621900]Barely touched the subject of religion besides the abrahamic ones, so sorry for that. And see lower part [URL="http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1317876&p=42619794&viewfull=1#post42619794"]here[/URL].[/QUOTE] Well, I don't want to start an argument about Apartheid but, while racist, its policies were designed primarily to preserve the Afrikaner culture rather than marginalize blacks and coloureds, although the latter was obviously a consequence of the former. It's a lose-lose situation, where majority rule results in the ethnic cleansing of Afrikaner people and minority rule results in the marginalization of entire ethnic groups. Don't be ashamed of being proud of being an Afrikaner, anyway, if you are indeed one.

[QUOTE=mugofdoom;42621615]You would look [I]really[/I] stupid if you were in the Netherlands and called a black person an "African American".[/QUOTE] It's funny because sometimes Russian news agencies, in pursuit of that trendy politcorrectness slip something like calling black guys in, say, Spain - "African Americans".

[QUOTE=thisispain;42617466]takes one to know one[/QUOTE] I was right, you're definitely a rocket scientist.

[QUOTE=borisvdb;42621641]Santa claus is inspired by sinterclaas through various new york poets and writers at the time when they were trading with the dutch. Sinterclaas was a real person though.[/QUOTE] Sinterklaas is the same person as St. Nikolaus or am I mistaken? They tend to dress similarly.

[QUOTE=Rusty100;42617568]oh so i guess just because some people don't realise its actually a really racist thing (and intended to be in its origins) means its ok[/QUOTE] Um yeah, that absoloutely makes it ok. That and the fact that this tradition spans to the early 20th century. The U.N. has had about 50+ years now to cry their politically correct river of agenda and it's just now that they want to start bitching? I hope The Dutch' continue their tradition, meyah.

[QUOTE=wraithcat;42622292]Sinterklaas is the same person as St. Nikolaus or am I mistaken? They tend to dress similarly.[/QUOTE] [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas_(disambiguation)[/url] [editline]23rd October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=EurofanBMW;42622321]Um yeah, that absoloutely makes it ok. That and the fact that this tradition spans to the early 20th century. The U.N. has had about 50+ years now to cry their politically correct river of agenda and it's just now that they want to start bitching? I hope The Dutch' continue their tradition, meyah.[/QUOTE] Don't worry, we will.

None of the kids see them as slaves or associate racism with them. Most kids look up to Zwarte Piet, and think he's awesome. Sometimes, when kids get a bit older and stop believing, they dress up as Zwarte Piet and help (a neighbour or teacher dressed as) Sinterklaas entertain and give gifts to the younger kids. In short, the only people who are upset by this are those who haven't experienced the tradition, and don't know the meaning behind it, and thus I believe that these people should have no say in what fate this tradition holds.

[QUOTE=Natrox;42623457]In short, the only people who are upset by this are those who haven't experienced the tradition, and don't know the meaning behind it, and thus I believe that these people should have no say in what fate this tradition holds.[/QUOTE] "i am not going to listen to anyone who disagrees with this tradition because i am an intellectually dishonest person who is insecure about having my childhood traditions criticized."

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42623611]"i am not going to listen to anyone who disagrees with this tradition because i am an intellectually dishonest person who is insecure about having my childhood traditions criticized."[/QUOTE] We're not giving anyone a bad name, and nobody who celebrates the tradition actually associates Zwarte Piet with being black. Thus, the only people that are "offended", are those who have nothing to do with the tradition at all. They're simply misunderstanding. I also bet that most of these people simply associate it with black face. I get why, but it doesn't hold the same meaning. Just like, for instance, the Swastika doesn't always equal Nazis. Maybe people should focus more on getting rid of ACTUAL racism.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42623611]"i am not going to listen to anyone who disagrees with this tradition because i am an intellectually dishonest person who is insecure about having my childhood traditions criticized."[/QUOTE] You can't disagree with tradition. It's there. You can "not like" it, but that's another story. Nothing there to "disagree with".

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42623611]"i am not going to listen to anyone who disagrees with this tradition because i am an intellectually dishonest person who is insecure about having my childhood traditions criticized."[/QUOTE] "i am not going to take his point about how nobody who takes part in the tradition actually relates it to black people or racism and claim that he's a massive racist since it'll give me some reblogs on tumblr"

[QUOTE=Aphtonites;42623813]"i am not going to take his point about how nobody who takes part in the tradition actually relates it to black people or racism and claim that he's he's a massive racist since it'll give me some reblogs on tumblr"[/QUOTE] i'v never been to tumblr and i never called him a racist so go back to sitting in your own "euphoria"

man i cant wait for this thread to hit page 20

[QUOTE=Aphtonites;42623813]"i am not going to take his point about how nobody who takes part in the tradition actually relates it to black people or racism and claim that he's he's a massive racist since it'll give me some reblogs on tumblr"[/QUOTE] it is a stereotypical caricature of someone of african descent. it's blackface. everyone's too busy being offended for their childhood traditions to realize that the character is a racial stereotype. whether or not people realize it isn't relevant to the fact that it's still a stereotyped portrayal.

[QUOTE=Limed00d;42623857]man i cant wait for this thread to hit page 20[/QUOTE] It hopefully won't, because if it will, that'll be 13 pages of extreme whiteknighting (yes, I called it that, bite me and point at my nonexistent fedora) and mental gymnastics explaining how one country should totally change their tradition because people from other countries think it's inappropriate from their point of view.