Dutch 'Black Pete' Christmas custom may be racist, warns UN - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Natrox;42623736]We're not giving anyone a bad name, and nobody who celebrates the tradition actually associates Zwarte Piet with being black. Thus, the only people that are "offended", are those who have nothing to do with the tradition at all. They're simply misunderstanding. I also bet that most of these people simply associate it with black face. I get why, but it doesn't hold the same meaning. Just like, for instance, the Swastika doesn't always equal Nazis. Maybe people should focus more on getting rid of ACTUAL racism.[/QUOTE] people don't associate zwarte piet with being black because children are lied to about history. if people were taught the real story and history associated with the tradition maybe less people would celebrate it.

[QUOTE=thejjokerr;42623850]Think of it like this: if you show us a blackface picture, most of us will identify it as zwarte piet, the cheerful and friendle helper of sinterklaas. Show it to an American, they'll say it's a racist representation of black people. Do you really want to share this with every country that has no such problem.[/QUOTE] do you think it's just a sick coincidence that blackface in America and zwarte piet [I]look extremely similar[/i]?

I'd like you to find me a black person who is deeply offended by Black Pete. Really.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42623910]people don't associate zwarte piet with being black because children are lied to about history. if people were taught the real story and history associated with the tradition maybe less people would celebrate it.[/QUOTE] Soo when are you guys going to stop celebrating thanksgiving?

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;42623914]do you think it's just a sick coincidence that blackface in America and zwarte piet [I]look extremely similar[/i]?[/QUOTE] What does it matter? America doesn't celebrate Sinterklaas and Sinterklaas does not increase incidents of racism (here or in the USA). Just because something is regarded as a racial stereotype in your country, doesn't mean we have to regard it in the same way.

[QUOTE=Natrox;42623973]What does it matter? America doesn't celebrate Sinterklaas and Sinterklaas does not increase incidents of racism (here or in the USA). Just because something is regarded as a racial stereotype in your country, doesn't mean we have to regard it in the same way.[/QUOTE] Or even care about it to begin with. A racial stereotype can be in jest it doesn't instantly turn anyone involved into Hitler.

[QUOTE=Aman;42624001]Or even care about it to begin with. A racial stereotype can be in jest it doesn't instantly turn anyone involved into Hitler.[/QUOTE] yeah, it's not like everyone calls Zwarte Piet a nigger and slaps him around with a whip as part of the festivities. he's just a character with a distinctive trait that happens to be skin color. if people want to get rid of the character, that's fine, but I don't see anything actively racist about it

[QUOTE]United Nations expresses concern that Dutch Christmas tradition of Father Christmas is racist and [B]"infringes the human rights"[/B] of black people[/QUOTE] It's a fucking Christmas display.

[QUOTE=slayer64;42624065]It's a fucking Christmas display.[/QUOTE] I don't even understand what human right they are apparently referencing. The "right" to never be offended? Even if you want to say it's racist "infringing on human rights" is humorously stupid.

[QUOTE=Protocol7;42624023]yeah, it's not like everyone calls Zwarte Piet a nigger and slaps him around with a whip as part of the festivities. he's just a character with a distinctive trait that happens to be skin color. if people want to get rid of the character, that's fine, but I don't see anything actively racist about it[/QUOTE] Well the people pick on the character's appearance, viewing it as a racial stereotype. You know, lips, skin color, hair - all combined. The thing is, it's nothing more than a character looking like that, there's no indication to that character being (or supposed to be in that matter) a representation of the whole population of certain ethnicity or race. Unlike US' blackface.

[QUOTE=Meladath;42617648]That is NOT what Racism is. Racism by definition is treating or seeing another race of human being as inferior purely based on their race. Please show me how unless you actively discriminate against a race of people that something is racist. Discrimination is by definition prejudice against an individual/s that is based on their membership of a specific group. How does this show discrimination against individuals? They are dressing up and painting themselves. They are in no way stating that black people are different to any other, and they are most certainly not insulting or showing them in a derogatory manner. Do you also believe that everyone who has a Slave in a BDSM context is also a bad person because the word Slave means property? Just because you do something that may have been perceived as derogatory in the past in a totally different context does not mean that thing or action itself is derogatory. The only way I see for this to happen is to actively make it so.[/QUOTE] The only thing that even makes it racist are the tears of all the white knights crying about it.

[QUOTE=slayer64;42624065]It's a fucking Christmas display.[/QUOTE] It actually has nothing to do with Christmas at all, but I guess it takes too much effort on the UN's part to notice the difference, two feasts in the same month must mean they're the same thing right?

[QUOTE=gudman;42624097]Well the people pick on the character's appearance, viewing it as a racial stereotype. You know, lips, skin color, hair - all combined. The thing is, it's nothing more than a character looking like that, there's no indication to that character being (or supposed to be in that matter) a representation of the whole population of certain ethnicity or race. Unlike US' blackface.[/QUOTE] yeah. I think a lot of people in this thread are the embodiment of misinformed slacktivists

[QUOTE=Miskav;42616950] 1) They're black because of the soot from the chimneys that they climb down. (White hands/Red lips/Blue eyes aren't exactly traits commonly found among black people) [/QUOTE] You don't seriously believe this do you? [QUOTE=Miskav;42616950] 2) Even [b]-IF-[/b] they were black, they get (and got) way better treatment compared to blacks in other parts of the world, at that time. [/QUOTE] They're black. Being black and getting ''better treatment'' than at [i]that[/i] time isn't that big of a feat

[QUOTE=Protocol7;42624174]yeah. I think a lot of people in this thread are the embodiment of misinformed slacktivists[/QUOTE] Well I can understand some of them... Every time I see "black people", or especially "blacks" (only blatant racists, who don't even care to conceal it use equivalent words in my country) I can't help but cringe a bit and have to suppress the urge to point out how inappropriate it is. But then I remember something they don't, there're other cultures on this planet.

[QUOTE=gudman;42624262]Well I can understand some of them... Every time I see "black people", or especially "blacks" (only blatant racists, who don't even care to conceal it use equivalent words in my country) I can't help but cringe a bit and have to suppress the urge to point out how inappropriate it is. But then I remember something they don't, there're other cultures on this planet.[/QUOTE] oh sure, I'm just talking about the people who go out of their way to make a point on an internet forum and go "yeah, I'm doing the right thing [IMG]http://facepunch.com//fp/emoot/smug.gif[/IMG]" this is most prevalent in threads like these where it's immediately obvious people look at the photo, run a quick wikipedia search and immediately reply "racism!!!"

[QUOTE=mobrockers;42623955]Soo when are you guys going to stop celebrating thanksgiving?[/QUOTE] /motherfucking thread right there.

[QUOTE=mobrockers;42623955]Soo when are you guys going to stop celebrating thanksgiving?[/QUOTE] idk if more people knew the history of thanksgiving i think we would celebrate it less

[QUOTE=thejjokerr;42624055]Who's racist here? There's people trying to ban zwarte piet for being black.[/QUOTE] Another /thread post right here. Good point. I'm sorry I'm not contributing much to this thread people. Hearing stupid PC shit like this doesn't allow me to have much of a civilized conversation. It just makes me want to reiterate shit like "political correctness is a mental disorder" and "The U.N. is fucking retarded", over and over again while banging my head against a wall. [editline]23rd October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=yawmwen;42624683]idk if more people knew the history of thanksgiving i think we would celebrate it less[/QUOTE] So then by the U.N.'s logic, thanksgiving is an infringement on human rights since we know what REALLY happened. If you celebrate Thanksgiving, you're saying "fuck all injuns" to the Native American community.

[QUOTE=EurofanBMW;42624709]Another /thread post right here. I'm sorry I'm not contributing much to this thread people. Hearing stupid PC shit like this doesn't allow me to have much of a civilized conversation. It just makes me want to reiterate shit like "political correctness is a mental disorder" and "The U.N. is fucking retarded", over and over again while banging my head against a wall. [editline]23rd October 2013[/editline] So then by the U.N.'s logic, thanksgiving is an infringement on human rights since we know what REALLY happened.[/QUOTE] xdddddd /thread right here owned count over 9000!1 [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Shitposting, again and again" - MaxOfS2D))[/highlight]

Lol how are you guys getting so worked up over this? I honestly doubt the tradition is used to spread racism anymore. I mean by that logic we should ban fortune cookies for spreading stereotypes about asians.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42624760]xdddddd /thread right here owned count over 9000!1[/QUOTE] Did you seriously create a fucking Treyvon Martin fan club? I hope that's just a joke and you're not some ass-kissing suburban anarchist. Although that would explain your position on this matter.

[QUOTE=EurofanBMW;42624831]Did you seriously create a fucking Treyvon Martin fan club? I hope that's just a joke and you're not some ass-kissing suburban anarchist. Although that would explain your position on this matter.[/QUOTE] someone paid money to buy me that title since i don't fetishize zimmerman.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42624760]xdddddd /thread right here owned count over 9000!1[/QUOTE] Yawmwen you make some p. shitty posts too

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42624852]someone paid money to buy me that title since i don't fetishize zimmerman.[/QUOTE] Well it's obviously a front for the fact that you want George Zimmermans man organ in and around your mouth.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42624760]xdddddd /thread right here owned count over 9000!1[/QUOTE] Ironic shitposting is still shitposting. not like you ever stop shitposting anyway

I'm rather surprised you lot are still arguing, even by this forums standards it seems pointless Cultural tradition is not exempt from accusations of racism or other discrimination, but you cannot apply a blanket condemnation upon acts considered racist in one culture but not another. To me, as a verified Social Justice Warrior™, this does seem like a fairly racially stereotyped and discriminatory practice, but it [I]is[/I] Dutch culture, and it is [I]not[/I] universally identified as racist. In America and Canada, and probably other western countries but whatever, blackface is undoubtedly and unarguably racist. Obviously the situation in the Netherlands is different and to look at it from an American point of view without consideration of the Dutch tradition is ignorant and honestly stupid. I agreed with T-Pain at the beginning of this thread, that it [I]is[/I] a racist practice in most modern social theory, but that it should not be banned or suppressed, just that the historical basis of this tradition, which may [I]or may not[/I], if the various theories of its origin are correct, be disgustingly racist, be explained as well as the common celebration. At least, that's what I gathered from thisispain's argument. Let the festivities go on, put on your blackface and your clown costume, whatever, but think about where and what inspired and brought forth the tradition and what it means today.

[QUOTE=DaysBefore;42625148]I'm rather surprised you lot are still arguing, even by this forums standards it seems pointless Cultural tradition is not exempt from accusations of racism or other discrimination, but you cannot apply a blanket condemnation upon acts considered racist in one culture but not another. To me, as a verified Social Justice Warrior™, this does seem like a fairly racially stereotyped and discriminatory practice, but it [I]is[/I] Dutch culture, and it is [I]not[/I] universally identified as racist. In America and Canada, and probably other western countries but whatever, blackface is undoubtedly and unarguably racist. Obviously the situation in the Netherlands is different and to look at it from an American point of view without consideration of the Dutch tradition is ignorant and honestly stupid[/QUOTE] As someone who has lived in holland, I can tell you that there are people of color there that do find it racist, but those opinions often fall on deaf ears. The dutch have a problem where any semblance of racism gets swept under the rug and ignored. I'm going to regret posting here, it's already massive shitfest.

[QUOTE=borisvdb;42625471]As someone who has lived in holland, I can tell you that there are people of color there that do find it racist, but those opinions often fall on deaf ears. The dutch have a problem where any semblance of racism gets swept under the rug and ignored. I'm going to regret posting here, it's already massive shitfest.[/QUOTE] I mean it is a very self-fulfilling prophecy to say that "the only people who think it's bad don't [I]really[/I] understand it". Thisispain himself said he lived in the Netherlands for several years, so I would hardly describe that as 'slacktivism' in any sense of the word.

[QUOTE=Megafan;42625563]I mean it is a very self-fulfilling prophecy to say that "the only people who think it's bad don't [I]really[/I] understand it". Thisispain himself said he lived in the Netherlands for several years, so I would hardly describe that as 'slacktivism' in any sense of the word.[/QUOTE] To fully understand what Sinterklaas means, you must grow up with it, imo.