• At least 450 killed, over 719 injured in crush at Hajj pilgrimage
    48 replies, posted
Or not be religious at all
[QUOTE=Tinter;48751578]I noticed now that the article calls it a stampede as well. English isn't my main language but calling it a crush seems odd to me.[/QUOTE] I was really confused about it too until I came across it being described as a stampede. And English is my main language.
[QUOTE=DiBBs27;48752196]Killer crowd is kind of accurate because this happens every year. [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incidents_during_the_Hajj"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incidents_during_the_Hajj[/URL] I put this on the religion because it blinds these people. As if it's "God's will" to go to this place even though you knowingly have the potential to take part in the process of either crushing other people or being crushed to death yourself, so you can get your pray fix. How anyone condones this shit is beyond me. The en mass slaughtering of sheep, the fact that it isn't directly related makes it so much worse that they all gather in such a small vicinity to do it. Even if they give the meat to poor people. The way they go about all of this shit is cruel and unusual to pretty much everyone involved.[/QUOTE] Pretty gross argument, yo. Nobody goes to this thinking, "yeah, let's crush some people! It's God's will, bitch! Muslim power!" Incidents like this occur because of huge numbers of people gathering in small spaces without proper crowd control measures. As another user pointed out, this particular incident happened because there was nobody directing the flow of pedestrian traffic over this bridge, resulting in what is supposed to be a one-way road having incoming travelers from both directions. By the time the mistake is realized, there are already way too many people on the bridge with no way to get off, panic ensues, people start pushing to try and get through, etc, etc. You don't have to get rid of religion to prevent shit like this, dude. This could have been avoided with some orange cones, a couple of simple plastic barricades, and some dudes in Dudes in DayGlo vests saying, "sorry, this is an exit only." The reason why people die every year at the Hajj is because Saudi Arabia doesn't take proper precautions. Go figure. It's Saudi Arabia. They don't exactly have a reputation for civic-minded efficiency.
[QUOTE=gudman;48752167]The fact that just because they've died doesn't mean they are above criticism. Person standing in the middle of the road at night dressed in all black doesn't deserve death when a car hits them, but they're still an idiot.[/QUOTE] your post doesnt qualify as criticism, it just didnt make any fuckin sense in context. people die in stampedes because of a chain of events that no single person has full awareness of. that's why there are fire codes and shit everywhere. it's an inherent risk in any large gathering. people trample each other to death at rock shows, in rave fires, in any throng. religiosity and the identity of "those people" has no significance whatsoever, there's no way of "knowing what would happen." easy to be condescending when you're criticizing people from afar.
[QUOTE=DiBBs27;48752196]Killer crowd is kind of accurate because this happens every year. [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incidents_during_the_Hajj"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incidents_during_the_Hajj[/URL] I put this on the religion because it blinds these people. As if it's "God's will" to go to this place even though you knowingly have the potential to take part in the process of either crushing other people or being crushed to death yourself, so you can get your pray fix. How anyone condones this shit is beyond me. The en mass slaughtering of sheep, the fact that it isn't directly related makes it so much worse that they all gather in such a small vicinity to do it. Even if they give the meat to poor people. The way they go about all of this shit is cruel and unusual to pretty much everyone involved.[/QUOTE] ...Yet similar incidents have occurred during [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_disaster]sporting[/url] [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luzhniki_disaster]events[/url], so I doubt that this is because of a religious mindset.
This is a tragedy. Devout worshippers of their religion lost their lives in a peaceful display of their religious fervor. Anyone saying otherwise really need to re-evaluate their perspective.
Shameful replies in here. It's pretty shocking. 700 people. 700
[QUOTE=Shadow801;48751436]The whole thing is beyond stupid. And kind of barbaric.[/QUOTE] How is this barbaric? This happens a lot in western countries too. Especially after sporting events.
[QUOTE=Phycosymo;48754096]...Yet similar incidents have occurred during [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_disaster]sporting[/url] [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luzhniki_disaster]events[/url], so I doubt that this is because of a religious mindset.[/QUOTE] You do realize that Hillsbourough had 'only' 96 deaths and is still considered one of the worst sporting disasters to ever occur in the Western World? The entire Western football world pretty much revamped all of their high-tier stadiums in response to that, as in making as sure as possible that such a disaster doesn't ever happen again. Meanwhile, since the Hillsborough Disaster happened in the Western world, there have been at least eight fatal stampedes of note in Mecca at exactly the same site as today, with, added with today's death toll, a total death toll of 3213 people over the last 25 years, with the record amount being 1426 deaths in 1990, which Saudi officials at the time claiming it to be an act of God. Today's stampede wasn't even the worst ever to occur there. To put your claim into perspective about it not being a religious mindset behind this, and that it is rather comparable to sport-related stampedes, a quick calculation of stampede deaths at this devil-stoning event in Mecca shows that the yearly average of deaths over the last 25 years is 128.52, so between 128 and 129 people averagely per year die in a stampede at Mecca. Yes, that is a death toll of 1.33 Hillsbouroughs yearly. And this is only counting stampede deaths at Mecca, with not even counting the deaths from fires or crane collapses. Absolutely insane how this stuff just keeps happening.
[QUOTE=Shadow801;48751436]The whole thing is beyond stupid. And kind of barbaric.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Strontboer;48751517]Its gods will[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=DiBBs27;48751708]I just wonder sometimes. Do they know how ridiculous they all look for participating in something that kills hundreds just for [I]trying[/I] to participate. And what the fuck is with slaughtering sheep. Possibly the most dangerous and backwards religion in the world.[/QUOTE] What the fuck [editline]24th September 2015[/editline] Like seriously do you people go out of your way to express your islamophobia?
Fucking morons.
[QUOTE=Kommodore;48753940]your post doesnt qualify as criticism, it just didnt make any fuckin sense in context. people die in stampedes because of a chain of events that no single person has full awareness of. that's why there are fire codes and shit everywhere. it's an inherent risk in any large gathering. people trample each other to death at rock shows, in rave fires, in any throng. [b]religiosity and the identity of "those people"[/b] has no significance whatsoever, there's no way of "knowing what would happen." easy to be condescending when you're criticizing people from afar.[/QUOTE] Where did that accusation came from? I didn't imply anywhere that those people are somehow affected because of their "identity" or "religiosity" or whatever. I've got no problems with Muslims, or Christians, or rock fans or anyone for that matter. I still find it pretty dumb though, participating in an event that is marked with people being crushed to death in huge crowds. Year after year, without fail. That still doesn't mean that they're entirely at fault here, or that they "deserved" that. Who I think really is at fault here though, is Saudi government. Again, this happens every time - is it so fucking hard to just try and organize this stuff better? Build something that would separate large masses of people? I think they just don't care enough, and if that's the case, there's blood on their hands.
Wikipedia is about right about this: "human stampede". So many people rushing to get a good spot near that cube. But I never thought I would read about so many dead people...
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;48754316]What the fuck [editline]24th September 2015[/editline] Like seriously do you people go out of your way to express your islamophobia?[/QUOTE] Are people not allowed to criticize an event that causes hundreds of easily preventable deaths on a yearly basis?
Human stampedes can happen everywhere with very large amounts of people in small areas. The last incident here in german was the [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Parade_disaster"]Love parade disaster[/URL].
[QUOTE=Bazsil;48755483]Are people not allowed to criticize an event that causes hundreds of easily preventable deaths on a yearly basis?[/QUOTE] There's a significant difference between criticizing Saudi Arabia for not taking the correct safety precautions and blaming the entire mishap on Islam, while saying: [QUOTE]Possibly the most dangerous and backwards religion in the world.[/QUOTE]
It does play a role though. Islam tradition puts so much pressure on the Hajj members to fulfill their journey with a time element. So not only do you have 3 million gathered in one area, all trying to get to the front of these places for their once in a lifetime event in their lives, but you also have to complete it at certain times or "you fucked up." This shit was invented when there wasn't 3 million pilgrims, but someone is failing to realize that.
[QUOTE=DiBBs27;48751708] [B]And what the fuck is with slaughtering sheep.[/B] Possibly the most dangerous and backwards religion in the world.[/QUOTE] To be used as holiday food? Like turkeys?
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