Sanctions to cost Lithuania, Estonia and Lavia $780 million - Polidicks

[QUOTE=antianan;47202717]There is no such thing as innocent civilian. We (aka all russians) let Putin into power and don't do anything to stop him, and it was you (aka all latvians) who elected your government. It's easy to say "nah it's just these big guys who's to blame". No, it's us who is responsible for all this shit.[/QUOTE]Nice victim blaming.

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;47202646]Look at North Korea. They are practically isolated from the rest of the world, with almost nobody willing to have any business with them, and there's no sign they are anywhere near giving up their aggressive attitude to their neighbors. Russia is absolutely colossal in comparison and, unlike North Korea, has quite vast natural resources. Once the cult of personality is going, and MAINLY when the main populace doesn't buy into your agenda and listens to their manipulative government instead, sanctions are fucking worthless.[/QUOTE] The difference with Russia is that the people there now are used to a certain degree of living standard. Support for Putin is only high because the 2000s saw impressive economic growth and a massive turnaround from the end of the USSR. Russia can only afford to fuck around in Ukraine for so long, before their stagnation catches up with them like it did with the USSR.

[QUOTE=itisjuly;47202723]Nice victim blaming.[/QUOTE] Victim blaming is when victim did nothing to end up i n the situation they are now. It was you who elected to go EU and Eurozone. Want to be with the top guys - have a bit of dirt eating struggles. Want EU benefits? Get EU disadvantages as well.

[QUOTE=Dark RaveN;47202738]Victim blaming is when victim did nothing to end up i n the situation they are now. It was you who elected to go EU and Eurozone. Want to be with the top guys - have a bit of dirt eating struggles. Want EU benefits? Get EU disadvantages as well.[/QUOTE] Nobody asked us if we wanted to switch to Euros. Nobody asked us if we wanted our exports to be left to rot. Nobody asked if we wanted to lose tons of money to spite Russia. I don't know man, I don't feel like I had much of a choice in this matter.

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;47202720]To all you guys calling for ending the sanctions, what should we otherwise do? Nothing?[/QUOTE] At least take measures to better distribute the effect of the sanctions within Europe. Right now the poor eastern countries are suffering disproportionally to the western countries, including those that decided on applying the sanctions to begin with... [editline]24th February 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=itisjuly;47202714]Because US totally didn't bully EU into doing this[/QUOTE] We shouldn't be shifting the blame to US for being their lapdogs in this

[QUOTE=itisjuly;47202749]Nobody asked us if we wanted to switch to Euros. Nobody asked us if we wanted our exports to be left to rot. Nobody asked if we wanted to lose tons of money to spite Russia. I don't know man, I don't feel like I had much of a choice in this matter.[/QUOTE] Joining the EU typically involves having to adopt the Euro at some point. If your country decides to join the EU, then you (or at least your government) did so knowing the requirements.

[QUOTE=Freakie;47202789]Joining the EU typically involves having to adopt the Euro at some point. If your country decides to join the EU, then you (or at least your government) did so knowing the requirements.[/QUOTE]Implementing a new currency during our economic struggle was a stupid as fuck idea. What is strategy and planning?

[QUOTE=itisjuly;47202795]Implementing a new currency during our economic struggle was a stupid as fuck idea. What is strategy and planning?[/QUOTE] You should go blame your government then, for doing it at the time they did.

[QUOTE=Freakie;47202803]You should go blame your government then, for doing it at the time they did.[/QUOTE]I can't blame my government for sanctions though.

So because they joined the euro agreeing to its terms they have no right to criticize a policy decided later on, which one-sidedly affects countries within the union? What is the argument here exactly? [editline]24th February 2015[/editline] or any other aspect of Europe they agreed to, really. Does anyone believe Europe is based on unquestionably good foundations or something?

[QUOTE=itisjuly;47202749]Nobody asked us if we wanted to switch to Euros. Nobody asked us if we wanted our exports to be left to rot. Nobody asked if we wanted to lose tons of money to spite Russia. I don't know man, I don't feel like I had much of a choice in this matter.[/QUOTE] Lose tons of money? Latvia gets nearly €1bn in EU spending and contributes around €150m - I think you're doing okay out of being in the EU tbh

[QUOTE=butt2089;47202832]Lose tons of money? Latvia gets nearly €1bn in EU spending and contributes around €150m - I think you're doing okay out of being in the EU tbh[/QUOTE] Probably because once we entered EU we were forced to shut down a lot of our factories so we would import European produce from other countries.

[QUOTE=itisjuly;47202714]Because US totally didn't bully EU into doing this[/QUOTE] But they didn't. It was Europe (mostly Eastern European countries like Poland and Estonia) who were lobbying the sanctions. There is a very strong anti-sanction lobby in the US and Europe because corporations have invested in Russia and don't want to lose out business there. Really, blaming the US for everything might be the easy way out, but most of the time it's just not true.

[QUOTE=itisjuly;47202462]The thing is, EU fucked us in the ass with the sanctions. Putin might lose billions but so did our economy of an EU country. Wishful thinking hoping EU will pay us back at least half of lost revenue. I personally know people who were affected by this very badly. [editline]24th February 2015[/editline] Debt to GDP ratio means fuck all when you're earning less than 2 euros an hour and a breakfast costs 2 hours of your worktime. No idea where you pulled the cheap as shit part. It's cheaper in some aspects, but in many prices are as high as other EU countries, sometimes even more. And when we switched from our currency to Eur, prices got even higher while wages stayed the same. No idea how it's in Estonia, but in Latvia wage:price ratio is really bad.[/QUOTE] I can get a decent breakfast for a bit less than 2 euros so idk man. Also I thought that it was ~€3/hour? [editline]24th February 2015[/editline] [IMG]http://puu.sh/gaEgN/6d2af6c2f3.png[/IMG] really now

[QUOTE=itisjuly;47202805]I can't blame my government for sanctions though.[/QUOTE] You can though. Your government had a fairly clear choice. Join the euro, remain independent and risk being taken over by Russia, or cave and become a russian puppet state. Joining the euro means backing their decisions (which your country has input in/ not being a puppet state and all).

Russia annexed a whole province and their hardware shot down a civilian airliner. Sanctions were the least the EU could do. If Russia would actually try to actively de-escalate the conflict in the Ukraine, by, you know, pulling out their tanks and soldiers that they deny the existence of, that would help. But so far they just stick to signing cease-fire treaties but acting like they have no control over those troops. And so this shitty situation will persist until one side budges or everything ends up entrenched in a shitty stalemate.

[QUOTE=Rapscallion92;47202435]Instead Glorious Leader Putin should be left to his own retarded devices right? Considering Russia has to date taken something like a 40 billion dollar loss due to the sanctions, and 3 other countries have collectively lost less than 1 billion, that's a fucking huge win, one which I'm pretty sure the EU would be happy enough to cover considering all those countries are pretty happy with not being russian puppets.[/QUOTE] Problem: The sanctions were intended to convince Putin to stop supporting the rebels in east Ukraine. He continues to do so, continues to deny doing so despite a mountain of evidence proving otherwise, and just laughs at the sanctions. Sanctions do not work and never have. You end up making life hell for the commoners in the country you're sanctioning, which often has the [i]opposite[/i] of the intended effect. It lets that government portray the issuing government as the enemy, lets them use the worsening economic situation to justify continuing to be a belligerent shit. Doubly so for a country the size of Russia, which is sufficiently resource rich to be totally self sufficient if need be. If you wanna stop an aggressive head-of-state you're gonna have to try a lot harder than angry letters and sanctions. We've proven time and again they're about as effective as pissing into an endless sea of piss.

[QUOTE=strazyyy;47203028]I can get a decent breakfast for a bit less than 2 euros so idk man. Also I thought that it was ~€3/hour? [editline]24th February 2015[/editline] [IMG]http://puu.sh/gaEgN/6d2af6c2f3.png[/IMG] really now[/QUOTE] Woops, sorry for that

[QUOTE=Rapscallion92;47202435]Instead Glorious Leader Putin should be left to his own retarded devices right? Considering Russia has to date taken something like a 40 billion dollar loss due to the sanctions, and 3 other countries have collectively lost less than 1 billion, that's a fucking huge win, one which I'm pretty sure the EU would be happy enough to cover considering all those countries are pretty happy with not being russian puppets.[/QUOTE] Sure, we've took a hit to the economy, mostly due to reduced oil price though. But thing is, those sanctions were applied because of Russia's involvement in Ukraine. Did they stop it? No, they didn't. That's what I meant before.

[QUOTE=itisjuly;47202601]Sanctions cause a lot of suffering in less developed EU countries while the ones who decide sanctions are rich politicians who are not affected by any of this. At the same time Russia's sanctions affect the people and not the government. What do you think will happen if this goes on? A rebellion? Doubt it. These sanctions hurt innocent civilians on both sides. That's about it. Poor become poorer, rich don't care. These sanctions are shit and a really scummy thing EU did to their own citizens. Sanctions have achieved fuck all besides hurting the very people who have nothing to do with the conflict.[/QUOTE] M8 it doesn't matter, oil is at 30$/barrel. Russia has their entire budget balanced at 110$/barrel. They'd be in recession without the sanctions, the sanctions ensure that the heads of Russia have to stay in russia The rupel would still be in freefall without sanctions and your economy which runs on the euro would still not be able to trade. In fact your countries problems aren't even related to the sanctions they are related to the impossible exchange rate between the euro and Russia's currency

[QUOTE=TestECull;47203045]Problem: The sanctions were intended to convince Putin to stop supporting the rebels in east Ukraine. He continues to do so, continues to deny doing so despite a mountain of evidence proving otherwise, and just laughs at the sanctions. Sanctions do not work and never have. You end up making life hell for the commoners in the country you're sanctioning, which often has the [i]opposite[/i] of the intended effect. It lets that government portray the issuing government as the enemy, lets them use the worsening economic situation to justify continuing to be a belligerent shit. Doubly so for a country the size of Russia, which is sufficiently resource rich to be totally self sufficient if need be. If you wanna stop an aggressive head-of-state you're gonna have to try a lot harder than angry letters and sanctions. We've proven time and again they're about as effective as pissing into an endless sea of piss.[/QUOTE] I agree completely. We need to keep the sanctions up to hurt the Russians, but in the end it will most likely not be enough. I'm extremely hesitant to ask for any military action however, as any action would result in a huge risk to America. We can't forget about nukes.

[QUOTE=Sableye;47203244]M8 it doesn't matter, oil is at 30$/barrel. Russia has their entire budget balanced at 110$/barrel. They'd be in recession without the sanctions, the sanctions ensure that the heads of Russia have to stay in russia The rupel would still be in freefall without sanctions and your economy which runs on the euro would still not be able to trade. In fact your countries problems aren't even related to the sanctions they are related to the impossible exchange rate between the euro and Russia's currency[/QUOTE] Oh my god yes they are related to sanctions. Consider the difference between statements: "Poland can not physically sell apples to Russia " vs "Poland can sell apples to Russia, but at an incredible exchange rate". According to your post it's the same, but it really isn't. Poland would even get profits from selling at that exchange rate. I am only using Poland as an example, every other country in EU got hit the same way.

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47203332]Oh my god yes they are related to sanctions. Consider the difference between statements: "Poland can not physically sell apples to Russia " vs "Poland can sell apples to Russia, but at an incredible exchange rate". According to your post it's the same, but it really isn't. Poland would even get profits from selling at that exchange rate. I am only using Poland as an example, every other country in EU got hit the same way.[/QUOTE] But Russia was the one who imposed the apple embargo in the first place...so how is Europe at fault for Russia imposing sanctions on their own imports when the European sanctions were largely in military and financial sectors, both not essential to Lithuania or Estonia's exports Also when two currencies cannot agree on an exchange rate it is effectively a sanction because even if Poland sells the apples they cannot convert the profit into their currency, and while some sectors can afford to sit on a pile of worthless cash, many can't, they need to convert it back to their own currency to use it. [editline]24th February 2015[/editline] There's nothing in the article about the sanctions being the problem, its the falling Russian currency which would have crashed anyway with oil being about 70$/barrel lower than where Russia had it pegged, and oil exports account for over 50% of Russia's exports so a massive drop in oil would have crushed the Russian economy anyways, the only thing the sanctions are doing is stopping Russia from utilizing its foreign currency holdings and outside credit [editline]24th February 2015[/editline] Read the entire article before you draw conclusions based upon the headline

[QUOTE=TestECull;47203045]Problem: The sanctions were intended to convince Putin to stop supporting the rebels in east Ukraine.[/QUOTE] By making it extremely damaging to keep supporting them. He keeps supporting them. So the damage continues as a punishment. Russia isn't laughing off sanctions as their economy spirals towards recession.

[QUOTE=Sableye;47203595]But Russia was the one who imposed the apple embargo in the first place...so how is Europe at fault for Russia imposing sanctions on their own imports when the European sanctions were largely in military and financial sectors, both not essential to Lithuania or Estonia's exports Also when two currencies cannot agree on an exchange rate it is effectively a sanction because even if Poland sells the apples they cannot convert the profit into their currency, and while some sectors can afford to sit on a pile of worthless cash, many can't, they need to convert it back to their own currency to use it. [editline]24th February 2015[/editline] There's nothing in the article about the sanctions being the problem, its the falling Russian currency which would have crashed anyway with oil being about 70$/barrel lower than where Russia had it pegged, and oil exports account for over 50% of Russia's exports so a massive drop in oil would have crushed the Russian economy anyways, the only thing the sanctions are doing is stopping Russia from utilizing its foreign currency holdings and outside credit [editline]24th February 2015[/editline] Read the entire article before you draw conclusions based upon the headline[/QUOTE] I agree that russia would suffer from oil prices dropping either way. But you are effectively saying that sanctions are not doing anything at all.

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47203894]I agree that russia would suffer from oil prices dropping either way. But you are effectively saying that sanctions are not doing anything at all.[/QUOTE] No I also said sanctions prevent Russia from accessing foreign capital such as loans and physical currency to exchange and their foreign holdings both of which would have greatly cushioned the blow and have previously when oil prices slumped. The sanctions (not surprisingly) targeted the most vulnerable portion of the Russian economy...almost as if they were intended to send a message......

The sanctions more heavily affect oligarchs and other rich Russian assholes than the average citizen, it's basically kicking Putins business partners in the dick more than anything. Comparing the economic impact of the sanctions on Russia in relation to the ones in these three nations shows that the sanctions are doing what they're supposed to, with relatively low "collateral damage". In this case, that damage is the inability for a small number of nations to export a handful of their products to Russia. All things considered, the sanctions have done and continue to do their job relatively well. I wouldn't stop sanctions until the Russian Govt. gets their shit together and stops causing unnecessary tension between other nations on purpose. [QUOTE=SouthParkMGT;47202419]When will they realize sanctions are only triggering Putin to do more stupidity?[/QUOTE] Everyone but my President is to blame for his actions. :rolleyes:

I'm glad my country is so russophobic. We've understood from history that making any kind of deals with Russia, diplomatic or economic, will most likely end up badly for you. So, we're barely being affected by this whole shitstorm.

[QUOTE=Swineflu;47204797]I'm glad my country is so [U]russophobic[/U]. We've understood from history that making any kind of deals with Russia, diplomatic or economic, will most likely end up badly for you. So, we're barely being affected by this whole shitstorm.[/QUOTE] how is an irrational fear of anything a good thing

[QUOTE=itisjuly;47202441]You know what man? Fuck you. Our economy is shit. One billion is A LOT of money. Our minimum wage is 200Euro/month so the loss we're suffering is not small at all. It only seems small to countries where economy is at decent levels. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Flaming" - OvB))[/highlight][/QUOTE] Minimal wage is 335 euros, if i remember correctly. You're being dumb.