WW1 war memorial in Singapore the cenotaph gets vandalised
84 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;40418467]If I died in a war, I would want to be remembered a hero, not a sad death. I think that's what they're going for. Not glorify war but make those who died in their defense as heroes.[/QUOTE]
What's so glorious about dying in a war? Killing a few foreigners and getting shot isn't heroic, as the guy you quoted said, it's tragic. And there's no way to say that the soldiers were heroic without saying war as a whole is heroic, it's impossible. The longer we view war as heroic, the more kids are going to want to be heroes and either get killed or continue the cycle.
[QUOTE=Ericson666;40420715]What's so glorious about dying in a war? Killing a few foreigners and getting shot isn't heroic, as the guy you quoted said, it's tragic. And there's no way to say that the soldiers were heroic without saying war as a whole is heroic, it's impossible. The longer we view war as heroic, the more kids are going to want to be heroes and either get killed or continue the cycle.[/QUOTE]
So long as civilization exists, you have war.
It's been happening for 6000 years and I truly doubt the trends will ever change.
So long civilizations exist there will always be war. Shit, fucking civilization survived [b]because[/b] of war.
[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;40420767]Shit, fucking civilization survived [b]because[/b] of war.[/QUOTE]
Shit, looks like you got to explain this statement.
[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;40420767]So long as civilization exists, you have war.
It's been happening for 6000 years and I truly doubt the trends will ever change.
So long civilizations exist there will always be war. Shit, fucking civilization survived [b]because[/b] of war.[/QUOTE]
Well of course we'll always have war if people like you keep romanticizing it. War isn't glorious, war isn't heroic, war is fucking tragic. As much as recruiters love to go on about how you get to "serve for your country" and "fight for freedom", guess what, that's what got people to sign up for the Wehrmacht during WW2
[QUOTE=NoDachi;40420835]Shit, looks like you got to explain this statement.[/QUOTE]
Lets pull some easy examples.
The first civilization, Mesopotamia had to erect walls to keep out barbarians from taking all of their shit.
Democracy would not have existed had the Greek city-states decided not to wage war against the Persian Empire.
China has to deal with nomadic tribes in the North so they had to erect walls and form a standing army so that they won't get destroyed, had that not happen we may not have seen paper or the establishment of a trade between Rome and China because barbarians are just destroying everything and taking shit on sight.
[QUOTE=Ericson666;40420919]Well of course we'll always have war if people like you keep romanticizing it. War isn't glorious, war isn't heroic, war is fucking tragic. As much as recruiters love to go on about how you get to "serve for your country" and "fight for freedom", guess what, that's what got people to sign up for the Wehrmacht during WW2[/QUOTE]
It's not fucking romanticizing, it's literally ingrained in history about how wars become a necessity. Why would a civilized peoples bow their heads and throw their spears away at the sight of a barbarian horde? They [b]never fucking did that[/b]. They took up arms to defend what they have. Barbarians fight because of their survival. To get food from others. To travel to new pastures. Civilized people fight for survival as well. Greeks get cornered by Persians and their way of life was threatened, so they fought. They have farms and people they were willing to fight for so they fought.
Each individual human being has a fight or flight instinct. Apply that to a whole population of a country or even a little farmer's village in 600 BC. Those who chose to run would eventually be destroyed while those chose to fight may survive. No civilization has ever survived by simply taking flight.
[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;40420939]Lets pull some easy examples.
The first civilization, Mesopotamia had to erect walls to keep out barbarians from taking all of their shit.
Democracy would not have existed had the Greek city-states decided not to wage war against the Persian Empire.
China has to deal with nomadic tribes in the North so they had to erect walls and form a standing army so that they won't get destroyed, had that not happen we may not have seen paper or the establishment of a trade between Rome and China because barbarians are just destroying everything and taking shit on sight.
[/QUOTE]
All these examples are of war waged on them and them defending, not their survival due to waging war themselves.
To "wage war" implies one is the aggressor, these examples are defenders.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;40421002]All these examples are of war waged on them and them defending, not their survival due to waging war themselves.
To "wage war" implies one is the aggressor, these examples are defenders.[/QUOTE]
Exactly, and so how would you stop an aggressor? You wage war yourself so that you can neutralize the threat. The Greeks ended their struggle when they marched on Persepolis. The Egyptians survived when they fought against sea-bourne barbarians by erecting an army and erecting an even larger one after the invasion so that they may never be threatened again. The Chinese built great walls to the North so that their dynasties would survive for a few more centuries. Barbarians fought out of necessity for survival.
[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;40420939]Lets pull some easy examples.
The first civilization, Mesopotamia had to erect walls to keep out barbarians from taking all of their shit.
Democracy would not have existed had the Greek city-states decided not to wage war against the Persian Empire.
China has to deal with nomadic tribes in the North so they had to erect walls and form a standing army so that they won't get destroyed, had that not happen we may not have seen paper or the establishment of a trade between Rome and China because barbarians are just destroying everything and taking shit on sight.[/QUOTE]
Well gee, maybe if the barbarians didn't start attacking in the first place, no wars would even have to be fought and no one would die!
Not that it matters anyway, ancient barbarians are about as relevant to the modern world as city states, we don't have to deal with the threat of being completely wiped out by marauders. So if we aren't defending against marauders (who we'll assume simply love war and don't have an actual reason to attack like food scarcity that could be solved via negotiations and charity), why do we still have massive militaries today?
[QUOTE=Ericson666;40421043]Well gee, maybe if the barbarians didn't start attacking in the first place, no wars would even have to be fought and no one would die!
Not that it matters anyway, ancient barbarians are about as relevant to the modern world as city states, we don't have to deal with the threat of being completely wiped out by marauders. So if we aren't defending against marauders (who we'll assume simply love war and don't have an actual reason to attack like food scarcity that could be solved via negotiations and charity), why do we still have massive militaries today?[/QUOTE]
Because today we have had dictators like Gaddafi, Saddam and Assad that threaten the stability of their regions that end up affecting the whole world. You have radicalists like Osama that harm innocent people in their own homelands while using failed states as a shield. Standing armies are meant to deal with these threats. We still have countries today that have recently gone to war with each other and both sides intend to keep an army so that the other would not push them around. I couldn't imagine what Iran would do if it marched on Baghdad or what Iraq would do if they tanks rolling in Tehran.
I have to say that they could have worded "Our glorious dead" way better.
[QUOTE=zupadupazupadude;40421141]I have to say that they could have worded "Our glorious dead" way better.[/QUOTE]
Our fabulous gifts to beelzebub?
[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;40421108]Because today we have had dictators like Gaddafi, Saddam and Assad that threaten the stability of their regions. You have radicalists that harm innocent people in their own homelands. Standing armies are meant to deal with these threats[/QUOTE]
So we should just blindly sign up to fight to the death? How do you think said dictators GOT their armies? Once again, look at Nazi Germany. Tons of kids signed up in the army so they could serve for their country against what they were told were enemies. Then, all the other countries do the exact same thing and a bunch of people get killed. The winning side of WW1 and WW2 are thought of as glorious and heroic (as shown by the outrage over this vandalism) while no one could give a flying fuck about the dead German and Japanese soldiers who were just following orders. Meanwhile, if no one had supported Hitler from the beginning and have been willing to die for him, the war wouldn't have happened in the first place
its a memorial in singapore, in english, be thankful they even got the grammer right when they put it up...
i think though this is kinda disrespectful, the vandles clearly did not know anything about WW1 history, the very reason why their country/citystate is free and self governing under a democratic republic is because of WW1
[QUOTE=NoDachi;40421187]Our fabulous gifts to beelzebub?[/QUOTE]
Naw actually they should've put up an entirely differen't phrase that doesn't sound like they're proud that those poor bastards died.
[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;40421108]Because today we have had dictators like Gaddafi, Saddam and Assad that threaten the stability of their regions that end up affecting the whole world. You have radicalists like Osama that harm innocent people in their own homelands while using failed states as a shield. Standing armies are meant to deal with these threats. We still have countries today that have recently gone to war with each other and both sides intend to keep an army so that the other would not push them around. I couldn't imagine what Iran would do if it marched on Baghdad or what Iraq would do if they tanks rolling in Tehran.[/QUOTE]
These people are/were in power because the same kind of romatized mythology that is used to excuse soldiers for killing people is applied.
Gadaffi "defended" the country from the former king, Saddam was part of the "revolutionary Bath troops" who, well lets guess, probably "defended" the country from "evil" guys,
Hafiz al-Assad was known for "strengthening" the countries position against other powers.
So there's that.
To your second point: standing armies don't deal with extremist threats. Secret services do. And these are basically following the "kill them before they kill us" idea which is even worse.
Most of the wars in arabic area are at least party a result of "dealing with radicalists"
[QUOTE=Ericson666;40421201]So we should just blindly sign up to fight to the death? How do you think said dictators GOT their armies? Once again, look at Nazi Germany. Tons of kids signed up in the army so they could serve for their country against what they were told were enemies. Then, all the other countries do the exact same thing and a bunch of people get killed. The winning side of WW1 and WW2 are thought of as glorious and heroic (as shown by the outrage over this vandalism) while no one could give a flying fuck about the dead German and Japanese soldiers who were just following orders. Meanwhile, if no one had supported Hitler from the beginning and have been willing to die for him, the war wouldn't have happened in the first place[/QUOTE]
I'm not going to try and justify any other wars, but lets talk about the war the memorial was actually for, World War 1 & 2, Now yes these conflict could've been completely avoided if no German, Japanese (actually a lot of Japanese got drafted, Germans too I think.) etc. people signed up, but things didn't go that way, and these Singaporeans signed up to defend there country, especially during WW2 when japan was at there "front door" (actually japan occupied singapore for quite some time) and this memorial albeit worded a bit oddly is just to commemorate those who died, I don't see anything wrong with that.
Also if I remember correctly singapore didn't play a large role in WW1, they did in WW2 however.
[QUOTE=Ericson666;40421201]So we should just blindly sign up to fight to the death? How do you think said dictators GOT their armies? Once again, look at Nazi Germany. Tons of kids signed up in the army so they could serve for their country against what they were told were enemies. Then, all the other countries do the exact same thing and a bunch of people get killed. The winning side of WW1 and WW2 are thought of as glorious and heroic (as shown by the outrage over this vandalism) while no one could give a flying fuck about the dead German and Japanese soldiers who were just following orders. Meanwhile, if no one had supported Hitler from the beginning and have been willing to die for him, the war wouldn't have happened in the first place[/QUOTE]
I remember there being a debate about also giving some respect and honor to some regular German soldiers that got killed in a town near where I live in the Netherlands in WW2. Eventually everyone agreed that they weren't fanatic SS dudes and just regulars that fought for what they thought was right, and so the mayor of the town walked to their graves and gave a minute of silence for them too.
[QUOTE=zupadupazupadude;40421370]I remember there being a debate about also giving some respect and honor to some regular German soldiers that got killed in a town near where I live in the Netherlands in WW2. Eventually everyone agreed that they weren't fanatic SS dudes and just regulars that fought for what they thought was right, and so the mayor of the town walked to their graves and gave a minute of silence for them too.[/QUOTE]
"They fought for what they thought was right" is not a good reason. This kind of subjectivist thinking is what people all over the world use to manipulate others.
[QUOTE=Killuah;40421440]"They fought for what they thought was right" is not a good reason. This kind of subjectivist thinking is what people all over the world use to manipulate others.[/QUOTE]
No but I mean as in they fought more for Germany itself rather than Hitler and killing the jews and so forth. Like I said they weren't fanatic SS nazi dudes that fought to the death for Hitler.
[QUOTE=zupadupazupadude;40421242]Naw actually they should've put up an entirely differen't phrase that doesn't sound like they're proud that those poor bastards died.[/QUOTE]
"Here are people who saw the realities of High Abstractions, and died"
[QUOTE=pvt.jenkins;40421366]I'm not going to try and justify any other wars, but lets talk about the war the memorial was actually for, World War 1 & 2, Now yes these conflict could've been completely avoided if no German, Japanese (actually a lot of Japanese got drafted, Germans too I think.) etc. people signed up, but things didn't go that way, and these Singaporeans signed up to defend there country, especially during WW2 when japan was at there "front door" (actually japan occupied singapore for quite some time) and this memorial albeit worded a bit oddly is just to commemorate those who died, I don't see anything wrong with that.
Also if I remember correctly singapore didn't play a large role in WW1, they did in WW2 however.[/QUOTE]
You can't just hand wave the German and Japanese armies and say "whatever, it just happened", we should look at what they did and avoid blindly "defending our country" in the future. And yes, a lot of soldiers in both the German and Japanese armies were drafted, which just goes to show that the draft is a terrible idea
[QUOTE=zupadupazupadude;40421370]I remember there being a debate about also giving some respect and honor to some regular German soldiers that got killed in a town near where I live in the Netherlands in WW2. Eventually everyone agreed that they weren't fanatic SS dudes and just regulars that fought for what they thought was right, and so the mayor of the town walked to their graves and gave a minute of silence for them too.[/QUOTE]
If you're going to paint war as glorious and the dead soldiers as heroes, you can't cherry pick who gets the glory. It's not like the SS troops had any input on whether Germany should fight or not, or for what ideals, so they should get just as much glory as any dead American or British troops should get (personally I say none).
[QUOTE=Ericson666;40421538]You can't just hand wave the German and Japanese armies and say "whatever, it just happened", we should look at what they did and avoid blindly "defending our country" in the future. And yes, a lot of soldiers in both the German and Japanese armies were drafted, which just goes to show that the draft is a terrible idea
If you're going to paint war as glorious and the dead soldiers as heroes, you can't cherry pick who gets the glory. It's not like the SS troops had any input on whether Germany should fight or not, or for what ideals, so they should get just as much glory as any dead American or British troops should get (personally I say none).[/QUOTE]
Yea I agree completely with giving all the sides glory (well ya know except for hitler)
[QUOTE=zupadupazupadude;40421593]Yea I agree completely with giving all the sides glory[/QUOTE]
There is nothing glorious about dying in agony in events that are completely beyond you.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;40421622]There is nothing glorious about dying in agony in events that are completely beyond you.[/QUOTE]
Aghh fuck that's not what I'm trying say dangit. I'm not saying that dying is glorious. I don't really get how you guys think that respecting the people that died in a war automatically means that people think war is cool and that we should do it again, because that's not what I'm thinking at all. I'd say do not respect the people that sent them in there.
[QUOTE=zupadupazupadude;40421707]Aghh fuck that's not what I'm trying say dangit. I'm not saying that dying is glorious. I don't really get how you guys think that respecting the people that died in a war automatically means that people think war is cool and that we should do it again, because that's not what I'm thinking at all. I'd say do not respect the people that sent them in there.[/QUOTE]
[I]"I don't trust people who make bitter reflections about war, Mrs. Barham. It's always the generals with the bloodiest records who are the first to shout what a hell it is. It's always the war widows who lead the Memorial Day parades....
We shall never end wars, Mrs. Barham, by blaming it on ministers and generals or warmongering imperialists or all the other banal bogeys. It's the rest of us who build statues to those generals and name boulevards after those ministers. The rest of us who make heroes of our dead and shrines of our battlefields. We wear our widow's weeds like nuns, Mrs. Barham, and perpetuate war by exalting its sacrifices. My brother died at Anzio...Yes. An everyday soldier's death, no special heroism involved. They buried what pieces they found of him. But my mother insists he died a brave death and pretends to be very proud...
Now my other brother can't wait to reach enlistment age. That'll be in September...Maybe ministers and generals who blunder us into wars, Mrs. Barham, the least the rest of us can do is to resist honoring the institution. What has my mother got for pretending bravery was admirable? She's under constant sedation and terrified she may wake up one morning and find her last son has run off to be brave."[/I]
[QUOTE=zupadupazupadude;40421498]No but I mean as in they fought more for Germany itself rather than Hitler and killing the jews and so forth. Like I said they weren't fanatic SS nazi dudes that fought to the death for Hitler.[/QUOTE]
You can't chose to fight for one thing and not for the other when both are part of each other. And whether you knew about one thing or not is not an indicator either.
And additionally: Soldiers DO know what they are fighting for. They are soldiers.
[QUOTE=zupadupazupadude;40421707]Aghh fuck that's not what I'm trying say dangit. I'm not saying that dying is glorious. I don't really get how you guys think that respecting the people that died in a war automatically means that people think war is cool and that we should do it again, because that's not what I'm thinking at all. I'd say do not respect the people that sent them in there.[/QUOTE]
They knew what they were getting into. By enlisting, you are validating the generals and saying that you're fine with whatever they do. The soldiers are just as guilty as the generals of the crimes they commit.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;40421869][I]"I don't trust people who make bitter reflections about war, Mrs. Barham. It's always the generals with the bloodiest records who are the first to shout what a hell it is. It's always the war widows who lead the Memorial Day parades....
We shall never end wars, Mrs. Barham, by blaming it on ministers and generals or warmongering imperialists or all the other banal bogeys. It's the rest of us who build statues to those generals and name boulevards after those ministers. The rest of us who make heroes of our dead and shrines of our battlefields. We wear our widow's weeds like nuns, Mrs. Barham, and perpetuate war by exalting its sacrifices. My brother died at Anzio...Yes. An everyday soldier's death, no special heroism involved. They buried what pieces they found of him. But my mother insists he died a brave death and pretends to be very proud...
Now my other brother can't wait to reach enlistment age. That'll be in September...Maybe ministers and generals who blunder us into wars, Mrs. Barham, the least the rest of us can do is to resist honoring the institution. What has my mother got for pretending bravery was admirable? She's under constant sedation and terrified she may wake up one morning and find her last son has run off to be brave."[/I][/QUOTE]
Ah, right I get what you're saying, I guess it's just that I can't understand how a person considers joining a military just because soldiers in the past got killed and then got glorified for it. I don't know anyone who would like to get killed just to get a memorial built for him. If I were to ever join a military and go to war with a country that is oppressing people, I would join because I would be helping those oppressed people, not because I want a memorial built for me because I died at some point, or that I want to die to be honored some day. Now WW1, WW1 was just 2 parties disagreeing with each other and deciding to go to war about it, I don't agree with building a memorial for those kinds of wars. There was no good or bad in WW1.
[editline]25th April 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ericson666;40421992]They knew what they were getting into. By enlisting, you are validating the generals and saying that you're fine with whatever they do. The soldiers are just as guilty as the generals of the crimes they commit.[/QUOTE]
I don't mean the generals, I mean the governments that start wars in the first place.
[QUOTE=Ericson666;40421992]They knew what they were getting into. By enlisting, you are validating the generals and saying that you're fine with whatever they do. The soldiers are just as guilty as the generals of the crimes they commit.[/QUOTE]
What about draftee's?
[QUOTE=pvt.jenkins;40422285]What about draftee's?[/QUOTE]
Well they're the only ones I have sympathy for, if it were up to me, mandatory service wouldn't exist.
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