Men should have the right to ‘abort’ responsibility for an unborn child, Swedish political group say - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;49916138]So women shouldn't be allowed to abort or give their babies up for adoption?[/QUOTE] They should, don't twist my words around. If someone decides to not have an abortion that is their choice and they shouldn't be punished for it.

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;49916142]Not they should don't twist my words around. If someone decides to not have an abortion that is their choice and they shouldn't not be punished for it.[/QUOTE] Read what you said again: [QUOTE]If someone is so irresponsible that they cant accept impregnation as a possible outcome of sex they should probably just keep masturbating instead[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;49916148]Read what you said again:[/QUOTE] You're not getting what I'm saying at all. Let me spell it out clearly. A woman is entitled to make whatever choice she wants to about having a child, she should not be punished for not having an abortion because the father "didn't want it". If you're going to have sex, you accept pregnancy as a possible outcome, whether you want too or not. If you get someone pregnant and they don't want an abortion and you do then that should not absolve you of financial responsibility at least.

[QUOTE=duckmaster;49916133]I think you fail to understand what the Thread is talking about.[/QUOTE] I was opening up a secondary discussion that is more directly in line with the subject and how it should work instead of joining the thread's argument about whether men should just forgo having sex if they don't want to have children. Threads don't have to be a single linear discussion yo. If a political party is looking into this male legal abortion system they have already moved away from the argument about what goes on in the bedroom leading up to the child, so I'll let the others continue to ramble on about it. Other things like mothers abusing child support, the father's inability to force an abortion, ect are not a talking point about this topic that I'd like to get into, I'd rather discuss the policy itself and how it'd work.

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;49916167]You're not getting what I'm saying at all. Let me spell it out clearly. A woman is entitled to make whatever choice she wants to about having a child, she should not be punished for not having an abortion because the father "didn't want it". If you're going to have sex, you accept pregnancy as a possible outcome, whether you want too or not. If you get someone pregnant and they don't want an abortion and you do then that should not absolve you of financial responsibility at least.[/QUOTE] Why should the father bear financial responsibility for a thing he has no control over? Also it's not a punishment, she's just dealing with the results of her choices to A) have unprotected sex and B) not giving up the child.

[QUOTE=Fourm Shark;49916177]She has the choice of having the child or not and paying for it or not, he should at least the choice of paying for it or not. It seems unfair not to give the man any choice at all just because the woman has a burden. Carrying a baby to term is not comparable to paying 18 years of child support.[/QUOTE] It is, however, comparable to raising a child for 18 (or more) years. Actually not even. Paying child support is less detrimental to ones personal and professional life as well.

[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;49916172]That's a very pro-life thing to say. That's abstinence-only talk.[/QUOTE] No its really not. Nowhere did I say I was pro-life. If I did it would be a pro life thing to say. I'm pro-accountabikitg. Two consenting adults made a choice with a very clear potential outcome. If one adult isn't ready to accept that a woman could do a 180 and decide to keep a kid instead of aborting it as a potential (no matter how small the probability) outcome of having sex, then he probably shouldn't be having sex in the first place.

[QUOTE=The Party Spy;49915198]I can see this being abused just as harshly as child support[/QUOTE] Child support is already abused. Some women get pregnant and use for an income and there's even cases with adopted mothers claiming support. Interesting enough if your a male trying to claim you'll have better luck trying to chop down a tree with a toothpick. Still. I don't know how i feel about forced abortion. It's a shame you can't abort the rights to paying support and such as in the mother has chosen to keep the child.

[QUOTE=Passing;49916197]Child support is already abused. Some women get pregnant and use for an income and there's even cases with adopted mothers claiming support. Interesting enough if your a male trying to claim you'll have better luck trying to chop down a tree with a toothpick.[/QUOTE] If child support absolutely HAS to be a thing, it shouldn't be what it is today. It needs some serious reviewing.

[QUOTE=Passing;49916197]Child support is already abused. Some women get pregnant and use for an income and there's even cases with adopted mothers claiming support. Interesting enough if your a male trying to claim you'll have better luck trying to chop down a tree with a toothpick.[/QUOTE] I don't know what it's like in Australia but in the US child support for most couples wouldn't cover nearly enough costs to serve as income. Males not having an equal chance to claim might be possible, you just cite it as a universal truth so I don't know, but that's a separate issue that needs solving. Like I've already said, I am totally open to reform. I get that some guys get fucked financially for a number of years because they have to pay genuinely too much money in child support for a kid that they don't even get to see if they want to. Just not this type of reform. This unequally puts more burden on women than it does men.

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;49916167]You're not getting what I'm saying at all. Let me spell it out clearly. A woman is entitled to make whatever choice she wants to about having a child, she should not be punished for not having an abortion because the father "didn't want it". If you're going to have sex, you accept pregnancy as a possible outcome, whether you want too or not. If you get someone pregnant and they don't want an abortion and you do then that should not absolve you of financial responsibility at least.[/QUOTE] How can "unwanted pregnancy" even be an argument for pro-choice when all the arguments for it suddenly don't matter when it comes to men? Both people having sex have responsibility, and both people now wanting a child from an unwanted pregancy should have a say. Even with this, males who don't want an abortion will never be able to have their partner not abort the child. That's fine. But they should have an option too.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;49916213]I don't know what it's like in Australia but in the US child support for most couples wouldn't cover nearly enough costs to serve as income. Males not having an equal chance to claim might be possible, you just cite it as a universal truth so I don't know, but that's a separate issue that needs solving. Like I've already said, I am totally open to reform. I get that some guys get fucked financially for a number of years because they have to pay genuinely too much money in child support for a kid that they don't even get to see if they want to. Just not this type of reform. This unequally puts more burden on women than it does men.[/QUOTE] It puts more burden on women because the decision to have and raise the child rests on the them.

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;49916221]It puts more burden on women because the decision to have and raise the child rests on the them.[/QUOTE] And I don't think its equal, fair, or moral. Everyone should take responsibility for their decisions, regardless of gender.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;49916213]Text[/QUOTE] In Australia, You'll get a very demanding letter in the mail that says you'll probably have to pay more than you earn in a week to support the child. child support and family court are the leading causes of male suicide in the country, strangely that fact is rarely mention. Regardless it isn't good.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;49916226]And I don't think its equal, fair, or moral. Everyone should take responsibility for their decisions, regardless of gender.[/QUOTE] Totally agree. I'll leave it at this. I use condoms and my wife uses birth control, I fully accept that she can still get pregnant even if we don't want it. I know that if my wife does get pregnant and decides to have a child even though I really don't want one, that I have a moral and legal obligation to support that choice. Because I alone made the choice to stick my dick in her.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;49916213] This unequally puts more burden on women than it does men.[/QUOTE] When women having a choice to have a child is a choice, having men have no say in that is putting an unfair burden on them. 2 consenting adults want to engage in sex and you're discriminating them based on biotruths.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;49916226]And I don't think its equal, fair, or moral. Everyone should take responsibility for their decisions, regardless of gender.[/QUOTE] I believe that too, but the woman has the choice of not having to deal her choices.

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;49916246]Totally agree. I'll leave it at this. I use condoms and my wife uses birth control, I fully accept that she can still get pregnant even if we don't want it. I know that if my wife does get pregnant and decides to have a child even though I really don't want one, that I have a moral and legal obligation to support that choice. Because I alone made the choice to stick my deck in her.[/QUOTE] [B]This does not stop at conception.[/B] Why should the woman have all these options about whether they get to support the baby while the man has none? They are both [B]equally[/B] responsible for conception, they should both have a say about whether they want anything to do with the baby after it is born. Why does there have to be such a double standard applied to this?

[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;49916254]You did not make that choice alone. She made the choice to let you stick your deck in her.[/QUOTE] Autocorrect lol. I was a consenting adult, that's what I'm saying.

[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;49916295]Oh geez, you're typing all of these on a phone keyboard? Bless your heart[/QUOTE] Well, I just switched to my phone. I digress though. [editline]12th March 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=BelatedGamer;49916282][B]This does not stop at conception.[/B] Why should the woman have all these options about whether they get to support the baby while the man has none? They are both [B]equally[/B] responsible for conception, they should both have a say about whether they want anything to do with the baby after it is born. Why does there have to be such a double standard applied to this?[/QUOTE] I agree that both are equally responsible for conception. I disagree with the notion that everything has to be split equally in regards to childbirth because it is [B]biologically[/B] unfair. When we develop the technology for men to carry babies around for 9 months and nurse them then I'll change my mind. Have sex for fun, be responsible, use condoms, the pill, IUD's, depo shot or whatever. Just know that despite whatever contraception you use childbirth is a potential consequence, and both adults (especially the man) should be ready to accept or negotiate whatever decision is made about the child.

[QUOTE=Fourm Shark;49916377]Its the womans choice to take it that far though. It's unfair to have the father be bound by the mother's choice entirely. She can choose to raise the child, but that's her choice, the father should have the choice as well.[/QUOTE] You don't have to help raise the child if you don't want to but I believe you should at least have some financial responsibility since you're half of the equation. My core belief is that you are totally responsible for the voluntary decisions you make as a consenting adult. If you accidentally knock up a crazy bitch that doesn't want an abortion for whatever reason that really sucks for you, but you alone made the choice to put your dick inside of her as much as she made the choice to give it up to you.

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;49916299] I agree that both are equally responsible for conception. I disagree with the notion that everything has to be split equally in regards to childbirth because it is [B]biologically[/B] unfair. When we develop the technology for men to carry babies around for 9 months and nurse them then I'll change my mind.[/QUOTE] [I]Why[/I] is that relevant? This is about financial responsibility isn't it? So why does the woman's biology have anything to do with it?

[QUOTE=Fourm Shark;49916421]So your telling me she has the choice to forgo financial responsibility through abortion but he doesn't because you both made the same choice at the same time? You at least see why I find that unfair right?[/QUOTE] Apparently he doesn't [I]and it's really bugging me oh god why am I getting so angry at this[/I]

[QUOTE=BelatedGamer;49916410][I]Why[/I] is that relevant? This is about financial responsibility isn't it? So why does the woman's biology have anything to do with it?[/QUOTE] Because the woman carries the baby around for 9 months, goes through labor, nurses, and is in most cases the primary caregiver. Maybe we'll both have to disagree on the fundamental subject of taking ownership for your actions. If you're going to have sex be responsible but also know the risks.

Equality isn't part of biology but rather an [I]ideology[/I], and quite arbitrary at that, that is projected onto our environment. Drawing the line with biology is against any true equality and has no place in serious discussion of it. The people in this thread just need to accept they don't believe in absolute equality but rather their moral compass and perceived societal values. Is it that difficult to accept your high ground is, at best, level with the other side? Apparently so since we're 4 pages of no progress whatsoever. :surrender:

[QUOTE=Fourm Shark;49916421]So your telling me she has the choice to forgo financial responsibility through abortion but he doesn't because you both made the same choice at the same time? You at least see why I find that unfair right?[/QUOTE] Yep, that's what I'm saying. I've tired myself of rationalizing why though. So we'll have to agree to disagree. I'll summarize myself again. Pro-choice, woman should not be forced to have an abortion because a man doesn't want a child, both parties should practice safe sex, know the risks, be responsible, take ownership of your actions if things don't go your way.

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;49916440]Yep, that's what I'm saying. I've tired myself of rationalizing why though. So we'll have to agree to disagree. I'll summarize myself again. Pro-choice, [B]woman should not be forced to have an abortion because a man doesn't want a child[/B], both parties should practice safe sex, know the risks, be responsible, take ownership of your actions if things don't go your way.[/QUOTE] Holy shit dude do you understand that abortion isn't the only option here? [B]Edit[/B] "Agree to disagree" is a pretty crappy thing to say when you've been completely ignoring what we've been saying.

[QUOTE=BelatedGamer;49916454]Holy shit dude do you understand that abortion isn't the only option here? [B]Edit[/B] "Agree to disagree" is a pretty crappy thing to say when you've been completely ignoring what we've been saying.[/QUOTE] No shit abortion isn't the only option. You can put the kid up for adoption or whatever else. If you decide to keep the kid then you should not be punished for it and both parties should be financially responsible. It's a lot easier to say "Give the kid up for adoption" when you're not a mother. [editline]12th March 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=BelatedGamer;49916454]Holy shit dude do you understand that abortion isn't the only option here? [B]Edit[/B] "Agree to disagree" is a pretty crappy thing to say when you've been completely ignoring what we've been saying.[/QUOTE] We disagree on some very fundamental ideas. Obviously we're not going to change our core beliefs in a thread on Facepunch, so I'm just agreeing to disagree because we will keep going in circles since neither of us will budge.

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;49916476]No shit abortion isn't the only option. You can put the kid up for adoption or whatever else. If you decide to keep the kid then you should not be punished for it and both parties should be financially responsible. It's a lot easier to say "Give the kid up for adoption" when you're not a mother. [editline]12th March 2016[/editline] We disagree on some very fundamental ideas. Obviously we're not going to change our core beliefs in a thread on Facepunch, so I'm just agreeing to disagree because we will keep going in circles since neither of us will budge.[/QUOTE] Apparently we do considering you seem to have no problem ignoring the [B]huge[/B] -- friggen' [B]HUGE[/B] -- double standard at work here. [B]Edit[/B] And the fact that you can't even justify it except on the most vague terms is, in my admittedly sometimes fallible opinion, completely reprehensible.

[QUOTE=Axznma;49916432]Equality isn't part of biology but rather an [I]ideology[/I], and quite arbitrary at that, that is projected onto our environment. Drawing the line with biology is against any true equality and has no place in serious discussion of it. The people in this thread just need to accept they don't believe in absolute equality but rather their moral compass and perceived societal values. Is it that difficult to accept your high ground is, at best, level with the other side? Apparently so since we're 4 pages of no progress whatsoever. :surrender:[/QUOTE] The reason people would even think about campaining for this is how much a man's life can get fucked over compared to how much control he has over the thing. If the system was more balanced it wouldn't be an issue.