4 miles from Ferguson, police shoot a black man after he robbed a store; he allegedly yelled "Shoot - Polidicks

[QUOTE=CAPT Opp4;45740585]Bit overkill for a guy holding a knife, no? I thought armed force was meant to disable, not kill. If both cops shot at the same time--at someone with a knife, no less--then that's hardly a justified level of defense. I understand that a weapon is a weapon--and that cops aren't supposed to distinguish between a knife, and a gun--but you can't say that both of them firing at him simultaneously wasn't overkill given the circumstances. Sure, he was a threat. It's not as though he wasn't trying to evoke a response, and I'm not questioning their decision to use force--but it seems like their response should've been less lethal than both cops shooting him at almost point-blank range.[/QUOTE] yes they should have shot him in the leg What do you expect? If somebody is brandishing a knife whilst robbing a store, they are posing a threat to the lives of not only the police, but also to the general public. The primary focus should be ensuring that they no longer pose a threat, and by shooting anywhere other than center mass (where they're trained to shoot) they're endangering the lives of other people.

I often feel that anyone who says something akin to: "Why did they have to kill him when they could have just shot him in the leg/arm/gun hand/etc." have never really shot a handgun before. It's hard enough to be accurate under calm circumstances. I can only imagine trying to hit a moving target in a short amount of time, all while being under very high stress. There's a reason olympic archery has a longer shooting distance than olympic pistol shooting (70m vs 50m) and that's using super low caliber, single shot, specially made pistols that are about as accurate and light as you can get.

[QUOTE=sgman91;45740686]I often feel that anyone who says something akin to: "Why did they have to kill him when they could have just shot him in the leg/arm/gun hand/etc." have never really shot a handgun before. It's hard enough to be accurate under calm circumstances. I can only imagine trying to hit a moving target in a short amount of time, all while being under very high stress.[/QUOTE] I also get the feeling they don't really understand that people don't necessarily just flop over when you shoot them once, especially when there's a shit ton of adrenaline going through them. And that they haven't been in a life threatening situation before, or at least never learned anything from it.

[QUOTE=CAPT Opp4;45740585]Bit overkill for a guy holding a knife, no? [/QUOTE] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9igSoJHEdUo[/media] Relevant. Someone please embed this for me, I don't know how to forum. :( edit: [quote=Starlight 456]Remove the S in https and make the tags [media][*/media] instead of [url][*/url]. [/quote] ty :)

[QUOTE=CAPT Opp4;45740585]Bit overkill for a guy holding a knife, no? I thought armed force was meant to disable, not kill. If both cops shot at the same time--at someone with a knife, no less--then that's hardly a justified level of defense. I understand that a weapon is a weapon--and that cops aren't supposed to distinguish between a knife, and a gun--but you can't say that both of them firing at him simultaneously wasn't overkill given the circumstances. Sure, he was a threat. It's not as though he wasn't trying to evoke a response, and I'm not questioning their decision to use force--but it seems like their response should've been less lethal than both cops shooting him at almost point-blank range.[/QUOTE] Shooting someone is ALWAYS shooting to kill, if you try to do it any other way it means you didn't have a reason to shoot them in the first place, since they weren't a threat enough to dispense lethal force.

[QUOTE=Another;45741234][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9igSoJHEdUo[/media] Relevant. Someone please embed this for me, I don't know how to forum. :([/QUOTE] Remove the S in https and make the tags [media][*/media] instead of [url][*/url].

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;45740267]I agree, especially since he was literally bring a knife to a gun fight.[/QUOTE] The Taser doesn't connect good and your on the ground getting stabbed to death. [editline]19th August 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=CAPT Opp4;45740585]Bit overkill for a guy holding a knife, no? I thought armed force was meant to disable, not kill. If both cops shot at the same time--at someone with a knife, no less--then that's hardly a justified level of defense. I understand that a weapon is a weapon--and that cops aren't supposed to distinguish between a knife, and a gun--but you can't say that both of them firing at him simultaneously wasn't overkill given the circumstances. Sure, he was a threat. It's not as though he wasn't trying to evoke a response, and I'm not questioning their decision to use force--but it seems like their response should've been less lethal than both cops shooting him at almost point-blank range.[/QUOTE] It's not uncommon for four or five cops to unload on a single guy. It's called contagious fire, one person shoots and just by reaction everyone does. You don't really have time to think "it looks like jeff has got this handled." Cause if jeff misses its your or his ass.

[QUOTE=Kardia;45740245]I'd place my bets on the latter, but the former is a possibility. Either way the killing of the guy seems like a waste of a life. Why not pacify him using a stun gun? Surely we (modern human kind) got the tech that would do the job efficiently. I'd say the same for all modern incidents like this. I'm sure the money is there for the equipment too, right?[/QUOTE] There's a lot of risk involved in using a taser against an armed opponent. It can fail to "pacify" and you have no time to do anything else - you're already being stabbed. Shooting in such cases is a much better option, and even then it's not guaranteed. Yeah human life is a human life, but there's also self-defense. Police officers are human beings too, and they have a right to defend themselves.

[QUOTE=CAPT Opp4;45740585]Bit overkill for a guy holding a knife, no? I thought armed force was meant to disable, not kill. If both cops shot at the same time--at someone with a knife, no less--then that's hardly a justified level of defense. I understand that a weapon is a weapon--and that cops aren't supposed to distinguish between a knife, and a gun--but you can't say that both of them firing at him simultaneously wasn't overkill given the circumstances. Sure, he was a threat. It's not as though he wasn't trying to evoke a response, and I'm not questioning their decision to use force--but it seems like their response should've been less lethal than both cops shooting him at almost point-blank range.[/QUOTE] They'll make sure to call dibs before one cop opens fire.

Oh no, not another sweet innocent kid that was just minding his own business, gunned down for no reason!! It's seriously startling at how all this shit is coming about, and how many people are trying to make it a racial thing as well.

[QUOTE=kibble;45740322]A waste of life? Is it not a good thing that idiots just like this guy are removed from the gene pool?[/QUOTE] If anyone uses "remove from the gene pool" unironically you can probably ignore them because they're probably crazy. Like holy shit dude.

[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;45740740]I also get the feeling they don't really understand that people don't necessarily just flop over when you shoot them once, especially when there's a shit ton of adrenaline going through them. And that they haven't been in a life threatening situation before, or at least never learned anything from it.[/QUOTE] There was a case where an officer got into a firefight with a bank robber. After 14 hits from 45 ACP hollowpoints including 6 into center mass the bank robber was still on his feet, moving around and firing back. He was not wearing armor, was not on drugs of any kind, sheer adrenaline keeping him up and fighting through "instantly fatal" wounds. He finally went down after receiving 3 more shots to head. Even then he survived long enough to make it into the ER and only died because with 17 sizable holes in him he was bleeding out faster than they could replace the blood. That is not a one off case, there have been numerous examples of people keeping fighting through 10+ hits from a pistol and some of them have even survived. In case of a deadly threat, you shoot until they stop being a threat, and only then worry about their survival.

[QUOTE=gudman;45741398]There's a lot of risk involved in using a taser against an armed opponent. It can fail to "pacify" and you have no time to do anything else - you're already being stabbed. Shooting in such cases is a much better option, and even then it's not guaranteed. Yeah human life is a human life, but there's also self-defense. Police officers are human beings too, and they have a right to defend themselves.[/QUOTE] Well if non-lethal pacification tech isn't effective, then I understand. And yeah, they should have that right to self-defense. Edit: Actually with the previous comment taken into account. Guns aren't even that effective. Have studies been done on the most effective weapons to take down people for self defense? Is the science solid? I mean [I]it's people lives we are dealing with here[/I]. I'm sure there has to be better technology than a 9mm handgun in terms of take down ability, cost effectiveness and non-lethality.

[QUOTE=Kardia;45741706]Well if non-lethal pacification tech isn't effective, then I understand. And yeah, they should have that right to self-defense. Edit: Actually with the previous comment taken into account. Guns aren't even that effective. Have studies been done on the most effective weapons to take down people for self defense? Is the science solid? I mean [I]it's people lives we are dealing with here[/I]. I'm sure there has to be better technology than a 9mm handgun in terms of take down ability, cost effectiveness and non-lethality.[/QUOTE] Hard to beat a semi-auto pistol for taking people down. A taser is often ineffective and you only get one chance. A semi-auto pistol can hold upwards of 18 rounds. Taser's are the best thing we've got at taking someone down without lethal force, and even then you still need a backup. When you've got a 115 pound female cop going agaist a 300 pound man attacking, I can't think of anything aside of a shotgun that'd be better than a pistol.

[QUOTE=milkandcooki;45741598]If anyone uses "remove from the gene pool" unironically you can probably ignore them because they're probably crazy. Like holy shit dude.[/QUOTE] People who say that others need to be removed from the gene pool need to be removed from the gene pool.

[QUOTE=CAPT Opp4;45740585]Bit overkill for a guy holding a knife, no? I thought armed force was meant to disable, not kill. If both cops shot at the same time--at someone with a knife, no less--then that's hardly a justified level of defense. I understand that a weapon is a weapon--and that cops aren't supposed to distinguish between a knife, and a gun--but you can't say that both of them firing at him simultaneously wasn't overkill given the circumstances. Sure, he was a threat. It's not as though he wasn't trying to evoke a response, and I'm not questioning their decision to use force--but it seems like their response should've been less lethal than both cops shooting him at almost point-blank range.[/QUOTE] Knifes can kill, the cops did the right thing. If you were a cop would you take the chance of disabling a man without getting seriously injured? Ask yourself that first then evaluate the situation.

[QUOTE=Kardia;45741706]Actually with the previous comment taken into account. Guns aren't even that effective. Have studies been done on the most effective weapons to take down people for self defense? Is the science solid? I mean [I]it's people lives we are dealing with here[/I]. I'm sure there has to be better technology than a 9mm handgun in terms of take down ability, cost effectiveness and non-lethality.[/QUOTE]There's been several studies into this very thing, but I won't dig them up for you because I'm using the on-screen keyboard and I have satellite internet, and I'm sorry for that. (I hope somebody with a more reliable internet connection can save the day here) From what I remember the biggest one was done by an ER doctor who found that gunshots are not really that terrible. Obviously being shot in the middle of nowhere is not a fun time, but since most shootings occur in cities and there's immediate access to a hospital, the chances of survival are pretty good. Obviously getting shot is something you'd want to avoid, but it's not as deadly as people think and quite often shooting victims are initially unaware of the injury. (my uncle, in the one time he's mentioned it, said it was like his legs just wouldn't work right after taking an AK round to the thigh)

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;45744244]There's been several studies into this very thing, but I won't dig them up for you because I'm using the on-screen keyboard and I have satellite internet, and I'm sorry for that. (I hope somebody with a more reliable internet connection can save the day here) From what I remember the biggest one was done by an ER doctor who found that gunshots are not really that terrible. Obviously being shot in the middle of nowhere is not a fun time, but since most shootings occur in cities and there's immediate access to a hospital, the chances of survival are pretty good. Obviously getting shot is something you'd want to avoid, but it's not as deadly as people think and quite often shooting victims are initially unaware of the injury. (my uncle, in the one time he's mentioned it, said it was like his legs just wouldn't work right after taking an AK round to the thigh)[/QUOTE] If I recall right, President Reagan wasn't aware he'd been shot until they told him he was at the hospital.

I cannot see a peaceful end to what is going on currently, which is sad. But, I hope that this can all end soon.

[QUOTE=Covalent;45741486]Oh no, not another sweet innocent kid that was just minding his own business, gunned down for no reason!! It's seriously startling at how all this shit is coming about, and how many people are trying to make it a racial thing as well.[/QUOTE] Well it's not as simple as "It's a racial thing/it's not a racial thing". There's socioeconomics, politics, tension between the state and its people etc. I don't think it helps that the vast majority of the police force is composed of caucasians in a city that's mostly black, but that what degree I couldn't tell you.

I can't believe this civil unrest is going out of control. I don't think the county or America will recover from this for a long time.

That's terrible. I don't like that their go-to first reaction is still lethal force, but he really didn't leave the officers much choice.

[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;45744721]That's terrible. I don't like that their go-to first reaction is still lethal force, but he really didn't leave the officers much choice.[/QUOTE] What do you want them to do? Engage in hand-to-hand combat with someone wielding a knife?

[QUOTE=BusterBluth;45741291]The Taser doesn't connect good and your on the ground getting stabbed to death.[/QUOTE] Some people are immune to tasers. [video=youtube;FMuLiIKnguo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMuLiIKnguo[/video]

Wow, that guy clearly didn't give a shit. It did look like he was drunk off his ass though.

[QUOTE=Jackald;45746193]Yeah, but he was BLACK. The media keep mentioning that, as if it's this huge important detail, like it was a racially motivated shooting or something when there's next to no evidence that it was.[/QUOTE] of course it matters, he din do nuffin and they shot him dead

[QUOTE=TheAlkaline;45745365]Some people are immune to tasers. [video=youtube;FMuLiIKnguo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMuLiIKnguo[/video][/QUOTE] I love this video as it perfectly demonstrates the inconsistency of tasers.

[QUOTE=TheAlkaline;45745365][video=youtube;FMuLiIKnguo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMuLiIKnguo[/video][/QUOTE] The thumbnail makes it look like a 90's Spike Lee movie

One officer should have tried to taze him with the other supporting, and it should have been before he got to lunging distance.

[QUOTE=Primigenes;45757645]Turns out they had a video of this [video=youtube;j-P54MZVxMU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-P54MZVxMU&bpctr=1408630879[/video][/QUOTE] at 1:27-1:30 it looks like he does pull something out of his jacket/pants